China's aircraft engine history is full of failures !! !!

[no smoking]

Man....i cant believe it.....not a single Chinese guy responded to this post.

Badguy and all the other Chinese DFI posters...where are you guys??

I guess the silence is confirmation of what i just said in my post.

Is there anything we need to response? It is true that china suffered and is suffering failure on the R&D of engine. Since we are continuing our effort, I'm expecting more failure coming.

So, india is not the only one suffering. Now, do you feel better?

 

[mattster]

Is there anything we need to response? It is true that china suffered and is suffering failure on the R&D of engine. Since we are continuing our effort, I'm expecting more failure coming.

So, india is not the only one suffering. Now, do you feel better?

Yes......I have to say it, but "misery does love company".

But India has been suffering for only 25 years on the Kaveri project.....but you guys it is 50 years, and I am not sure even you guys can keep up with the multiple WS-XX versions of engines you came up with ??

Just kidding....dude !!!

 

[ppgj]

modern turbofan engine tech is too complex. that is why countries like US, france, russia and euro group protect it fiercely.
for india and china it is an uphill task inspite of the funds. but having been a good partner all the while and not resorting to cloning, india will have better access and hence in long term it is a bit of an advantage.

 

[no smoking]

modern turbofan engine tech is too complex. that is why countries like US, france, russia and euro group protect it fiercely.
for india and china it is an uphill task inspite of the funds. but having been a good partner all the while and not resorting to cloning, india will have better access and hence in long term it is a bit of an advantage.

We'll see.

 

[ppgj]

We'll see.

honestly good luck mate. if you come up with that, it would be a milestone for the chinese. although india and china can't develop it today, they will eventually.

 

[nitesh]

Ok enough of this BS of "corrupt Indian bureaucracy". It is a well known fact that it is corrupt. But how this explains the continuous Indian growth story both in terms of economies and technological achievements. India has certain mechanism of doing things and things are done in that manner only.

Now if you guys have certain incredible proof that nothing is happening then put it across or stop repeating the same line again again agin it is not helping in the discussion.

From now on post deletion will start and if you are still not understanding then infraction then follow on action

 

[ppgj]

Ok enough of this BS of "corrupt Indian bureaucracy". It is a well known fact that it is corrupt. But how this explains the continuous Indian growth story both in terms of economies and technological achievements. India has certain mechanism of doing things and things are done in that manner only.

Now if you guys have certain incredible proof that nothing is happening then put it across or stop repeating the same line again again agin it is not helping in the discussion.

From now on post deletion will start and if you are still not understanding then infraction then follow on action

sorry nitesh. lost my cool a bit.

 

[nimo_cn]

modern turbofan engine tech is too complex. that is why countries like US, france, russia and euro group protect it fiercely.
for india and china it is an uphill task inspite of the funds. but having been a good partner all the while and not resorting to cloning, india will have better access and hence in long term it is a bit of an advantage.

If you are counting on the "a bit of an advantage" rather than your own R&D ability, India will suffer much more than China.

 

[mattster]

Why cant India leverage the academia community in major engineering institutes for major complex R&D programs like jet engines.

These kinds of projects require so much basic materials science research that many advanced countries have whole labs in big universities dedicated to doing research in these areas.

A classic example is JPL (Jet Propulsion laboratories) at Caltech (California Institute of Technology) in Pasadena, CA. JPL played a big role in jet and rocket engines in the US.

The funding for these Labs can come from the various Government bodies, MOD, Army, ISRO, etc.
Once the basic research is done, then it can be transfered to private of other government bodies.

This type of academia and industry collaboration is a must for projects that require immense bandwidth of various technologies and universities would be a great incubator to do the basic research.

 

[ppgj]

If you are counting on the "a bit of an advantage" rather than your own R&D ability, India will suffer much more than China.

r&d is an ongoing thing. how do you think kaveri happened? it is r&d and that 'bit' of an advantage, that we will have and you wont.

 

[p2prada]

Why cant India leverage the academia community in major engineering institutes for major complex R&D programs like jet engines.

These kinds of projects require so much basic materials science research that many advanced countries have whole labs in big universities dedicated to doing research in these areas.

A classic example is JPL (Jet Propulsion laboratories) at Caltech (California Institute of Technology) in Pasadena, CA. JPL played a big role in jet and rocket engines in the US.

The funding for these Labs can come from the various Government bodies, MOD, Army, ISRO, etc.
Once the basic research is done, then it can be transfered to private of other government bodies.

This type of academia and industry collaboration is a must for projects that require immense bandwidth of various technologies and universities would be a great incubator to do the basic research.

We need big time funding for that. GoI does not give a grant of more than $5million while the big universities in the US get more than $100million a year.

Not feasible as of now. Even India's premier university, IISC's, funding is Rs100cr(~$20million), obviously not enough.

A lot of grant goes into the administrative expenses of the universities. Also, in the US the rich alumni aid American colleges every year. That's not always the case in India.

More importantly, education in engineering and basic science in India pretty much sucks to the core. We will need massive revamp in the syllabus or curriculum in order to match the American system. We are more theory based, while the American system is more practical. And this includes the famed IITs too. We can discuss this probably 20 years later.

 

[mattster]

We need big time funding for that. GoI does not give a grant of more than $5million while the big universities in the US get more than $100million a year.

Not feasible as of now. Even India's premier university, IISC's, funding is Rs100cr(~$20million), obviously not enough.

A lot of grant goes into the administrative expenses of the universities. Also, in the US the rich alumni aid American colleges every year. That's not always the case in India.

More importantly, education in engineering and basic science in India pretty much sucks to the core. We will need massive revamp in the syllabus or curriculum in order to match the American system. We are more theory based, while the American system is more practical. And this includes the famed IITs too. We can discuss this probably 20 years later.

I understand that the funding is limited as of now. But a country like India that harbors ambitions of being a regional heavyweight must eventually do the cost-benefits analysis if it seriously want to build a strong indigenous capability in these areas.

What is the cost of a major 10 year defense project involving hundreds of employees taking 30 years.....now you are not talking about a few millions......it could be closer to a billion or more.

When you have gone thru that type of experience a couple of times; at some point you have to look at all your projects and learn from experience.

Is it better to spend a couple of hundred million building strong research labs in critical technologies in major universities, and then reap the benefits of the research and more importantly create a pipeline for trained young engineers, or keep blowing money on endless project delays ??

 

[ReneDad]

The list you provided does not provide any indication as to why the engines were cancelled.

WS-5
The project started in 1963. It was developed from H-5 bomer's WP-6 turbojet engine and was supposed to use on a new H-5 variant. The first engine for test was delivered in 1965 and WS-5 passed all its ground test in 1970. It was fixed on a H-5 bomber in 1971 but since China didn't have a test bed to test the performance of the engine in the high altitude at the time, the plane was not allowed to take off from the runway.

WS-6
The project started in 1964. It was assigned to power J-9 fighter. The first engine was put on the test bed in 1968. In 1980, it has past all ground test with thrust 12220kN, T/W ratio 5.93. But unfortunately, J-9 project was cancelled because PLAAF refused to continue funding a second generation fighter project. The J-9 team managed to find a new funder---the Q-6 strike fighter, a MiG-27 liked plane develope by HONGDU Aviation Industry Group LTD. In 1982, WS-6G reached its maximum trust 13830kN while the wight was reduced about 100kg. But Q-6 lost the competition with another indigenous strike fighter JH-7, which was developed by Xi’an Aircraft Industry (Group) Company Limited. The WS-6 project was terminated in 1984.

WS-9
Only 4 licensed copy of the Rolls-Royce Spey RB.168 Mk 202 was produced in 1979, using British material and these engines passed test bed test in China and UK in 1980. Then the project was halted becasue there was no plane using it untile late 1980s, the JH-7 strike fighter chose it. JH-7 didn't use WS-9 but the UK made spey sealed in warehouses in China and UK.

The so-called Qin Ling, or WS-9G, is developed or improved from WS-9 or spey turbofan engine. It was reportedly with thrust 9800kN and T/W ratio 6.5. Qin Lling is used on JH-7A, the newest variant of JH-7. Qin Ling was reportedly passed its desing-developing certification in 2003 and mass production certification in 2007.

WS-10/WS-10A
WS-10 is not a canceled project. Its just the concept demonstration phase of the project. It started in 1987. WS-10A was reportedly passed its design-deveopling certification in 2005.

Though there are a lot of rumors said how WS-10A is incompetence, but I have a impression that Rassia has not had any new contract selling AL-31F/FN engine to Chiina for years. I suppose anyone could harly imagine that Chiina has already stopped the mass production of J-10/11 fighters.

 

[ppgj]

renedad,
that is very elaborate post. appreciate that. however,

WS-5

WS-10
but I have a impression that Rassia has not had a new contract selling her AL-31F/FN engine to Chiina for years. I suppose anyone could harly imagine that Chiina has already stopped the mass production of her J-10/11 fighters.

then how do they plan to equip the j-10/11's? what is the backup plan?

 

[ReneDad]

renedad,
that is very elaborate post. appreciate that. however,



then how do they plan to equip the j-10/11's? what is the backup plan?

In Chinese term, design-developing certification means the engine has passed all test bed test and flying test on the real plane, and the design or the blue prints will no longer be changed. So you could suppose there already are some WS-10As have been fixed on J-11s since 2005.

Mass production certification means the engine has been used on planes for years and its design and processing engineering have been proved mature and no longer being changed.

For example:

If the plane has a shaft of length 200mm, before design-developing certification, the engineer can change it to 190mm or 210, but after the desing-developing certification, he can not easily change the length of the part, because all planes after the certification will be delivered to PLAAF. If he changes the length, all shafts on the delivered planes will have to be changed for the reason of exchangeability.

But he still can change the way of making it, like by cutting or forging, until the mass production certification.

People always mixes the AL-31F for J-11 and AL-31FN for J-10. Exactly they are different engines with different length.

If China wants J-10 using WS-10, people could suppose she does, there have to be a WS-10B or something existed or being developed.

 

[ReneDad]

renedad,
what is the backup plan?

The backup plan is AL-31F/FN. If China still imports them, people can deduce that the WS-10 still has some problem. If China has stopped to import AL-31F/FN, people can suppose WS-10 has been used on J-11/10.

 

[p2prada]

I understand that the funding is limited as of now. But a country like India that harbors ambitions of being a regional heavyweight must eventually do the cost-benefits analysis if it seriously want to build a strong indigenous capability in these areas.

What is the cost of a major 10 year defense project involving hundreds of employees taking 30 years.....now you are not talking about a few millions......it could be closer to a billion or more.

When you have gone thru that type of experience a couple of times; at some point you have to look at all your projects and learn from experience.

Is it better to spend a couple of hundred million building strong research labs in critical technologies in major universities, and then reap the benefits of the research and more importantly create a pipeline for trained young engineers, or keep blowing money on endless project delays ??

That is obvious. But, where is the money to fund all of this? India is still far from being a first world country. Give it another 10 years for the education sector to start maturing. Education and healthcare is not the highest in priority as compared to the military. It will still take time for GoI to be able balance education, healthcare and lifting millions out of poverty. GoI only funds "sufficient" amount of money for the functioning of the universities.

 

[p2prada]

The backup plan is AL-31F/FN. If China still imports them, people can deduce that the WS-10 still has some problem. If China has stopped to import AL-31F/FN, people can suppose WS-10 has been used on J-11/10.

One more option could be China has placed the J-10/11 project on hold due to unavailability of engines from Russia(Technology Denial) and until the WS-10 has been certified for flight testing.

China had signed 2 deals in 2005. One was for 100 AL-31FNs and another for 150AL-31Fs.

 

[ppgj]

The backup plan is AL-31F/FN.

but in your post #33 you said russians have stopped selling them?

If China still imports them, people can deduce that the WS-10 still has some problem. If China has stopped to import AL-31F/FN, people can suppose WS-10 has been used on J-11/10.

fair enough in a logical sense. but what is the case realistically? are you saying WS-10 is already in use? if yes, how many j-10/11's are fitted with it?

 

[Vladimir79]

Though there are a lot of rumors said how WS-10A is incompetence, but I have a impression that Rassia has not had any new contract selling AL-31F/FN engine to Chiina for years. I suppose anyone could harly imagine that Chiina has already stopped the mass production of J-10/11 fighters.

Actually, we signed a deal this year for 100.

adding that Russia's first arms deal of this year was signed with China for the delivery of more than 100 jet engines for the Chinese J-10 fighter.

Russia-China military-technical deals worth $16 bln since 2001 | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire