China says its military arsenal comparable with West

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martian no hostility, but the Roman 2000 year old example does not apply today. Nations keep their military advantage by innovating and make improved versions of older weapons. If you are reverse engineering you are just make copies of the older versions which may have become outdated by the newer generation weapons, the time and resources spent to reverse engineer maybe fruitless, or there could be a narrow window depending on the speed it is reversed engineered but it is not innovating or groundbreaking just simple cheaper copies.
 

badguy2000

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martian no hostility, but the Roman 2000 year old example does not apply today. Nations keep their military advantage by innovating and make improved versions of older weapons. If you are reverse engineering you are just make copies of the older versions which may have become outdated by the newer generation weapons, the time and resources spent to reverse engineer maybe fruitless, or there could be a narrow window depending on the speed it is reversed engineered but it is not innovating or groundbreaking just simple cheaper copies.
Frankly speaking, the precondition of you viewpoints is that west and Russia can keep investing more fund on their R&D than CHina.

to keep innovating and maintaining the lead of tech costs much more than RE.

I don't think that west and Russia can keep investing more fund than CHinese in the coming decades,if Chinese economy keeps its ride.


guy, economy is the base while others including R&D are just the upper buildings the base ....
when economy is weakened, the R&D have to be slowed.even cease...

Russia is a very good example how poor economy pull back its R&D.

Today, the economy of west world is struggling and have to decrease its budget of R&D. the cutoff of F22 is a good example....
 

Martian

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Lethalforce, I'm simply saying that it is common sense (as the Romans have demonstrated) to engage in reverse engineering to quickly develop the expertise to catch up in technological capability. It is understood that reverse engineering is not a long-term strategy, but an useful short-term tool.

The Soviet Union also used reverse engineering. Two examples are Soviet reverse engineering of US B-29 bomber and AIM-9 Sidewinder missile.

"Article: Soviet Union copied B-29 bomber -- piece by piece; Reverse engineering: Russians simply kept 3 B-29s that were forced down in Soviet territory"
See Soviet Union copied B-29 bomber -- piece by piece; Reverse engineering: Russians simply kept 3 B-29s that were forced down in Soviet territory | Article from Telegraph - Herald (Dubuque) | HighBeam Research or Tu-4 BULL

"K-13/R-3S missile (NATO reporting name AA-2 'Atoll), a Soviet reverse-engineered copy of the AIM-9 Sidewinder, made possible after a Taiwanese AIM-9B hit a Chinese MiG-17 without exploding; amazingly, the missile became lodged within the airframe, the pilot returning to base with what Russian scientists would describe as a university course in missile development." See Reverse engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Vladimir79

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Frankly speaking, the precondition of you viewpoints is that west and Russia can keep investing more fund on their R&D than CHina.
The West will always have more money than China since China can't survive without the West's money. Russia makes up for R&D shortfalls by teaming up for joint projects. China has turned into a pariah nation that no advanced nation wants to make military deals with. PLA stands alone.

to keep innovating and maintaining the lead of tech costs much more than RE.
Considering RE is all China does, you make a good point.

I don't think that west and Russia can keep investing more fund than CHinese in the coming decades,if Chinese economy keeps its ride.
GDP growth in China is on the decline and will eventually even out around $6-7 trillion in GDP until they can make the move to the services sector. You can't keep making low end consumer products for ever when your people demand higher wages.

guy, economy is the base while others including R&D are just the upper buildings the base ....
when economy is weakened, the R&D have to be slowed.even cease...

Russia is a very good example how poor economy pull back its R&D.
We have spent more on R&D in the last three years than we have in the past 16 before it.

Today, the economy of west world is struggling and have to decrease its budget of R&D. the cutoff of F22 is a good example....
F-22 R&D was completed a decade ago, F-35 still moves forward. They didn't cut their R&D but in ABM, they cut the procurement. US defence spending is still rising.
 

badguy2000

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The West will always have more money than China since China can't survive without the West's money. Russia makes up for R&D shortfalls by teaming up for joint projects. China has turned into a pariah nation that no advanced nation wants to make military deals with. PLA stands alone.
you should persuade Obama not to borrow money from CHina any more.

Considering RE is all China does, you make a good point.



GDP growth in China is on the decline and will eventually even out around $6-7 trillion in GDP until they can make the move to the services sector. You can't keep making low end consumer products for ever when your people demand higher wages.
however, I have confidence that Chinese GDP will be 6-7 trillion USD in 3 years.

let's wait and see.

I hope that the thread will still exist in 2012,so that time can tell which one is wrong.............:icon_salut:

We have spent more on R&D in the last three years than we have in the past 16 before it.
duing Soviet era, SOviet spent 10 times more money on R&D than CHina. that was why Russia had more advanced tech than China.
However ,in forseeable future, China may invest 10 time more money on R&D than Russia....that is the case.

F-22 R&D was completed a decade ago, F-35 still moves forward. They didn't cut their R&D but in ABM, they cut the procurement. US defence spending is still rising.
USA now is cutting its defence budget. at the same time, the war in Afhganstan and Iraq occupy lots of defence budget. so USA's investment on R&D will decrease much...:stinker:
 
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rockdog

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Hi Badguy, my old friend. here i back!

It's three years since i joined the Indian Defence Forum (IDF).

I still remember that at that time, articles in India media and forum was talking about something like "how soon we will catch China", "how soon our gdp growth will overtake China".

Now 3 yrs passed, the GDP ratio between China and India is from around 2.5:1 to almost 3.5:1, if we add Hong Kong, then will be 4:1...

People were talking about LCA Arjun J10 going to the service, and people now still talking about LCA Ajrun J10 going to the service, and of courseJ10 is replaced by J10B

How interesting, and i think only time tells truth...

BTW, happy to see lots of old friends (both Chinese and Indian) here!
 

ppgj

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Now 3 yrs passed, the GDP ratio between China and India is from around 2.5:1 to almost 3.5:1, if we add Hong Kong, then will be 4:1...
good for you.
People were talking about LCA Arjun
india and china both have problems regarding jet engine. but don't worry. LCA will be inducted 2010 onwards. arjun is already being inducted though not in large numbers.

and of courseJ10 is replaced by J10B
same as LCA. with a foreign engine.
 

sayareakd

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courseJ10 is replaced by J10B

How interesting, and i think only time tells truth...
OK please inform when was the first test flight of J10B took place and as on date how many J10 were replace by J10B ???
 
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rockdog

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OK please inform when was the first test flight of J10B took place and as on date how many J10 were replace by J10B ???
On Chinese mili bbs, it's said around August 2009, so far there are 140 J-10A in service now. J-10B is expected to replace the production of J-10A in two years.

Some important improvement has made:
Jian-10B (J-10B) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

http://bbs.cjdby.net/attachments/month_0909/090922081919e5b7e5ad47295e.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0906/39_66_1c9ff3fe317cb90.jpg

And i think the most important thing is that, mili fans in China can almost confirm that the AESA radar will be equipped on it. If you check the additional equipment of the plane. (the nose is very like F16 and F18's latest version.)
 

sayareakd

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On Chinese mili bbs, it's said around August 2009, so far there are 140 J-10A in service now. J-10B is expected to replace the production of J-10A in two years.
so they are still under development but this is contrary to our own post which says that J10 has replaced J10B.........:thumbs_thmbdn::twizt:
 
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rockdog

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so they are still under development but this is contrary to our own post which says that J10 has replaced J10B.........:thumbs_thmbdn::twizt:
Sorry it seems a misunderstanding:
I said we are talking about J10B replaced (instead of) J10.
 

redragon

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Hi Rockdog, nice to see you in DFI/IDF again, I like your posts in IDF, hopefully you can contribute more to DFI.
Regarding "time will tell", that is absolutely right, facts are the most powerful words to win a debate. we are here just for fun, in the real world, we need to work harder to push our beloved motherland moving forward faster, that is the real challenge.
 

p2prada

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I still remember that at that time, articles in India media and forum was talking about something like "how soon we will catch China", "how soon our gdp growth will overtake China".

Now 3 yrs passed, the GDP ratio between China and India is from around 2.5:1 to almost 3.5:1, if we add Hong Kong, then will be 4:1...
Quite silly. Your currency rate strengthened against the Dollar due to US pressure. China saw a massive 25-30% growth in GDP during the recession simply because of the Dollar-Yuan exchange rate and nothing else. The Yuan was undervalued which led to unfair trade practices by China. Bush has been pressuring China to strengthen the Yuan since 2004. It's not like your economy suddenly catapulted to glory.
 

badguy2000

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Quite silly. Your currency rate strengthened against the Dollar due to US pressure. China saw a massive 25-30% growth in GDP during the recession simply because of the Dollar-Yuan exchange rate and nothing else. The Yuan was undervalued which led to unfair trade practices by China. Bush has been pressuring China to strengthen the Yuan since 2004. It's not like your economy suddenly catapulted to glory.
well....in fact. Yuan is still undervalued ,although it has be appreciated much .

if Yuan were to adjusted properly, CHina's GDP would be more,if measured by dollars.


in fact, the nominal GDP hide the real economy gap between CHina and India......
 

amitkriit

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We can interpret and re-interpret the whole scenario, but one fact will never change, India is 1/3rd of China Economically/Socially and Militarilly. We need to bring our house in order, before thinking big and wishing to compete with China. I am an entrepreneur, and I can't tell u how hostile is Indian system for opening new businesses, implementing new ideas and their growth, only those who are big are getting bigger, doing anything from scratch is really hard.

Just a food for thought:

The Hindu Business Line : China way ahead of India in patent filings
 

Vladimir79

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Wow, Russia beat out India by over three times and even Germany. I never saw that coming. People saying we aren't inventive can choke on it.
 

Rage

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well....in fact. Yuan is still undervalued ,although it has be appreciated much .

if Yuan were to adjusted properly, CHina's GDP would be more,if measured by dollars.


in fact, the nominal GDP hide the real economy gap between CHina and India......

Also, if the 'Yuan' were revalued, your exports would take a sharp hit. Because your export policy predicates itself upon your products being cheap. Ergo, while your static GDP would increase, your dynamic in the long run GDP would not, besides significantly eroding your cost advantage [already at a precipice if recent reports of manufacturing activity outsourcing to India are any indication].
 

Martian

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In post #4, Lethalforce stated: "when they innovate something instead of reverse enginneering Russian copies than people will believe these kind of claims."

In post #14, redragon stated: "I think it will take at least another 50 years, if not forever, for China to be really relying on it's own tech."

In post #24, Vladimir79 stated: "Considering RE is all China does, you make a good point." (RE = reverse engineering)

Let me try to persuade some DFI members that the world changes over time. Does an anti-ship ballistic missile that travels at Mach 10 before impact qualify as an innovation and indigenous technology?

"US panic at China's new ship killer"

The institute's report said the Dong Feng missile was thought to have a range of about 2000 kilometres and a speed of Mach 10: "The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a US supercarrier in one strike."

The result, 13 years later, is the Dong Feng 21. "It's a technological leap that's never [before] been made," says Schriver, now the head of a non-partisan research body, Project 2049 Institute, and a founding partner of the consulting firm Armitage International.

"The Russians couldn't do it. If it works, it will have the range of a ballistic missile and the accuracy of a cruise missile.

"The Chinese would have the ability to hold our carriers at a great distance - it almost makes the aircraft carriers obsolete.

"What did we do in 1996? We sent carriers. What are the Chinese doing? Taking the carriers out of the equation." He thinks it prudent to expect such missiles to be operating within a couple of years.

See US panic at China's new ship killer
 
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rockdog

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Wow, Russia beat out India by over three times and even Germany. I never saw that coming. People saying we aren't inventive can choke on it.
Hey friend,

look at here:
The tittle is: how Russia is investing with its energy dollar to hi-tech zone, for the re-raising

in one of our mili forum, we have a dedicated group collecting hi-tech information and investment activities in Russia, you can read most of them, since they are in English, and it's already 23 pages long.

Enjoy.
 

Vladimir79

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