China offers to finance 30 per cent of India's infrastructure

[Compersion]

Certainly, this is business, bargain and valuation are necessary for both sides.



Please stop wishful thinking. Pakistan is different market with different potential. Eating dinner in a restaurant doesn't make the nearby butcher shop less attractive.



PRC certainly is not the only one, but no one else is willing to offer financing your infrastructure in such scale.

Heres a toast to a possible beneficial relationship between PRC and india in future with proper considerations. But please realise india does not need money it is about expertise and long term partnership. There is japan, Korea and America also. Also one must realise infrastructure in india will probably be at a larger scale compared to PRC in the upcoming years hence PRC wanting its industry to have a market since work in PRC might slow down. India has many potential partners and PRC needs to fix more wrinkles to get the same.

You also mention about butcher analogy but please remember that butcher you refer to is no ordinary butcher. When that butcher sees you eating too much in the restaurant he won't come to your house with pleasantries and ring your door bell. You are assuming the butcher is normal. Iam sure in your analysis you have (haven't you) looked at the quality of service of the butcher and also the perpetual service the butcher will demand from you even if you feel like going to the restaurant. Ask the Americans how they dealt with the butcher you might have to come to similar decisions.

 

[t_co]

Why China has blocked Indian Pharma companies doing business ??

Blame Western pharma companies - Merck et al runs the show as far as China's pharma regulators are concerned

 

[nimo_cn]

Sorry we will not use Chinese technology... too risky... the whole infrustructure will come down crumbling... Railways ?? it will be no go area for China....

Then what is the benefits of investing in Indian infrastructure?

Japanese are willing to invest in India for the same purpose of promoting Japanese railway technology. China, like every other businessman is just following suit.

Japanese offered to build a HSR line for China at an extremely low price in the late 1990s, connecting Beijing and Shanghai, the only condition was that China had to apply Japanese technology to the whole line, not just the tracks, but also the coaches and every other subsystems.

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[Compersion]

Then what is the benefits of investing in Indian infrastructure?

Japanese are willing to invest in India for the same purpose of promoting Japanese railway technology. China, like every other businessman is just following suit.

Japanese offered to build a HSR line for China at an extremely low price in the late 1990s, connecting Beijing and Shanghai, the only condition was that China had to apply Japanese technology to the whole line, not just the tracks, but also the coaches and every other subsystems.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2

Return of investment and also long-term partnership. The Japanese have a good history of investment in india and also have made good money. also for large scale infrastructure they are able to offer favorable finance terms (at low interest rates due to BOJ) that enable the investment to develop a long term (reliable) business model that can be calculated on return of investment. That is difficult to find in the world. The japanese are also talking about doing their own QE and that money needs to go somewhere and i am sure India is one of the prime destinations. also the japanese provides training and expertise that will spread to the country and they know that it will not be stolen but done through JVs and proper means and also has protection of intellectual property rights and the law is strong in India that Japanese appreciate. one example is Delhi Metro and on the other end is Maruti (you look at whats in between). You will also realise that within Delhi Metro there are PRC companies JVs. Perhaps that is what the PRC investment will be in the future -> On cost economics. The overall expertise and deal is done with Japanese and others with PRC coming into to offer some sub-contract work through JVs (to reduce apprehension) that they have done previously that is based on them being cheaper (since many companies and countries including local ones are able to offer the same).

You will see that is what the PRC state companies are doing all over the world. PRC is also doing big business in India now. I am sure they will do more business together in the future. But the quality and flavor of that might not be like the Japanese, Koreans, Americans and also PRC might have to compete with Taiwan, ASEAN, British and Europeans.

i think one area that PRC ought to try and enter is Real Estate in India if they have not already. There is a lot of low level companies that would do well to deal with PRC because of cheap and previous experience.

 

[t_co]

Return of investment and also long-term partnership. The Japanese have a good history of investment in india and also have made good money. also for large scale infrastructure they are able to offer favorable finance terms (at low interest rates due to BOJ) that enable the investment to develop a long term (reliable) business model that can be calculated on return of investment. That is difficult to find in the world. The japanese are also talking about doing their own QE and that money needs to go somewhere and i am sure India is one of the prime destinations. also the japanese provides training and expertise that will spread to the country and they know that it will not be stolen but done through JVs and proper means and also has protection of intellectual property rights and the law is strong in India that Japanese appreciate. one example is Delhi Metro and on the other end is Maruti (you look at whats in between). You will also realise that within Delhi Metro there are PRC companies JVs. Perhaps that is what the PRC investment will be in the future -> On cost economics. The overall expertise and deal is done with Japanese and others with PRC coming into to offer some sub-contract work through JVs (to reduce apprehension) that they have done previously that is based on them being cheaper (since many companies and countries including local ones are able to offer the same).

You will see that is what the PRC state companies are doing all over the world. PRC is also doing big business in India now. I am sure they will do more business together in the future. But the quality and flavor of that might not be like the Japanese, Koreans, Americans and also PRC might have to compete with Taiwan, ASEAN, British and Europeans.

i think one area that PRC ought to try and enter is Real Estate in India if they have not already. There is a lot of low level companies that would do well to deal with PRC because of cheap and previous experience.

So you're saying there's no chance the PRC takes the catbird seat among foreign investors in India? Why?

 

[t_co]

One thing to note: China wants to incorporate India into its 'Eurasian Architecture' because Russia is getting shaky.

 

[Known_Unknown]

One thing to note: China wants to incorporate India into its 'Eurasian Architecture' because Russia is getting shaky.

Could you please elaborate? What is this architecture all about?

 

[amoy]

One thing to note: China wants to incorporate India into its 'Eurasian Architecture' because Russia is getting shaky.

frankly I do not subscribe to such an Eurasian design that incorporates India (regardless of from whatever "high source" as claimed). the rationale unfolds as -

1) India simply isnt interested! They'd rather maintain an "independent" posture to benefit from various like they have sold her "counterbalance-to-China" image well. evidently Japan for one is busy wooing India a much overrated power. India will remain detached to her self interest.

2) Chinese pearl-string strategy works well. the tremendous investment in Sri Lanka Pakistan Nepal and so on (instead of dealing monolithic India) will gradually pay off on the Southern Block equation and secure Indian Ocean passage. to highlight Myanmar and Pakistan in particular - trans-Myanmar pipeline is operating to allieviate Chinese reliance on Melacca transit.

3) the Eurasia or Silk Road Belt covers vast Central Asia hinterland which pipelines energy to China and IMO shall extend to Iran, who'd be more than willing to get on board with sanctions being lifted. In contrast India lacks black gold.

4) intrinsically Chinese interests dont converge with Indian. Indias exploding population will hit the worlds top spot. the contention for resources will get even more intensive for oil, water, evident in Chinese plan of diverting Yarlung Tsangpo to arid west, not to mention territorial spats.

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[Compersion]

So you're saying there's no chance the PRC takes the catbird seat among foreign investors in India? Why?

There is potential but the history and dynamics of the region and world have to bear in mind.

What do you feel and think. I would like to see your answer and analysis.

 

[Compersion]

Could you please elaborate? What is this architecture all about?

Oil and gas from Iran and Central Asia to India and China. It is good to have acknowledgment of potential and future India renaissance and PRC wants to incorporate such ideas into plans and development. But India cannot and with good objective analysis it is not possible to be part of any architecture that has PRC to be the endpoint because both want the same and with large volume(s). Also "Russia getting shaky" is not what India thinks and wont allow such a hedge against them. Sure things might flow through India to PRC but it would be more like the spread of Buddhism, money, software, drugs (the good stuff unlike before) and not Oil and Gas.

 

[t_co]

Could you please elaborate? What is this architecture all about?

China wants to reduce tensions among major Eurasian states (Russia, China, India, Iran, Turkey) - hence why it proposed the SCO - and wants to create a common framework for sharing control of the maritime littoral of Eurasia (the Western Pacific, the IOR, the Persian Gulf, the Mediterranean, the Arctic Ocean).

This goal stands in diametric opposition to the US/NATO goal of keeping major Eurasian powers divided, and advocating 'freedom of navigation', which is really freedom of power projection from the maritime littoral into continental powers.

It's really the same game played between Britain and other European powers in the 18th and 19th century, but played out on a much larger scale.

 

[t_co]

There is potential but the history and dynamics of the region and world have to bear in mind.

What do you feel and think. I would like to see your answer and analysis.

I think there is potential, if only because China is the largest economy in Asia, and Chinese investors know better than anyone how to tie together local bureaucracies and infrastructure grids into nodes on the international supply chain.

 

[no smoking]

Heres a toast to a possible beneficial relationship between PRC and india in future with proper considerations. But please realise india does not need money it is about expertise and long term partnership.

No, India doesn't have that money, that is why you are seeking FDI to support these infrastructure project!

There is japan, Korea and America also. Also one must realise infrastructure in india will probably be at a larger scale compared to PRC in the upcoming years hence PRC wanting its industry to have a market since work in PRC might slow down. India has many potential partners and PRC needs to fix more wrinkles to get the same.

The same words have been repeated by the Indians like you for decades! Now, India is still sitting on its great potentials while there was no signs of these Japanese/Korean/American money yet!

You also mention about butcher analogy but please remember that butcher you refer to is no ordinary butcher. When that butcher sees you eating too much in the restaurant he won't come to your house with pleasantries and ring your door bell. You are assuming the butcher is normal. Iam sure in your analysis you have (haven't you) looked at the quality of service of the butcher and also the perpetual service the butcher will demand from you even if you feel like going to the restaurant. Ask the Americans how they dealt with the butcher you might have to come to similar decisions.

Ok, my friend, you have to admit that you really don't understand what Pakistan means to China's economic map!
I will give you a tip: middle east!

 

[no smoking]

Oil and gas from Iran and Central Asia to India and China. It is good to have acknowledgment of potential and future India renaissance and PRC wants to incorporate such ideas into plans and development. But India cannot and with good objective analysis it is not possible to be part of any architecture that has PRC to be the endpoint because both want the same and with large volume(s).

There is no so called India and China competition of oil and gas simply because that India doesn't have that money so that India is not in a position to compete with price. And thanks to India's Pakistan relationship, it is not in a position to influence Arabian's oil policy politically either. And with American's protection, India can't threat any of them. So,let's get back into real world.

 

[prohumanity]

China is thinking long term...that's the sign of a wise civilization....India is a great ,ancient civilization....let China and India talk the way they used to talk and trade for centuries before the Imperialist crooks came and created divide ...because they were afraid of these friendly giants who can lift the whole world out of poverty. As for Paki....Karma is coming to bite them...they have to use their F-16s to kill the snakes which they raised in their backyard to bite their neighbors.. China does not support terrorists....have you ever heard a single Chinese terrorist who infilterated India? Time for Giants to dance in peace and harmony for the sake of 7 billion human beings.

 

[Compersion]

I think there is potential, if only because China is the largest economy in Asia, and Chinese investors know better than anyone how to tie together local bureaucracies and infrastructure grids into nodes on the international supply chain.

Your response was a limited generalisation. I reply with such in mind and the following is a generalisation to many thoughts many have.

I agree there is a lot of potential but you do realise that India is different compared to PRC and you cannot use the same approach. Also India will ask questions like what happened to the Shanghai Special Economic Zone (it fits your description). Also what you mention is not a skill that India is needing and wanting from PRC. What India needs is partnership and expertise that will be long-term in nature and will lock the relationship of the two parties in a positive manner.

For example if there is a situation that India says okay to PRC and there is a huge 300 billion project(s) implementation (we are still unsure on exactly what that is). Will that change PRC behavior for example towards Pakistan that is negative towards India that has enabled Pakistan to behave in such a way because of PRC support. 300 billion relationship is huge and not easy to find in the world. And frankly India is not keen on dealing in a 300 billion relationship if that country supports Pakistan and other nodules that are anti-India. There is also question of boundary resolution.

One skill PRC has that India has used before is something like large scale bridge building. We are seeing India use PRC JV on such projects. Perhaps that is one area that PRC can focus on. There is also real estate because of PRC experience. But i am not sure if India will allow PRC to do it alone and without other partners. And not sure if 300 billion will be on bridge buidling and real estate only. There is talk about making SEZ like in PRC replicated in India but that has a strong component of only cheap, obedient and disciplined labor. Whereas India investment will focus on other areas.

Thats why the role of PRC will be there but there will be others involved at a higher level.

India is not overly concerned about being a large manufacturing hub for the rest of the world on cheap products but more about internal market dynamics and making products with high value and growth and also upgrading its infrastructure for its own people and not for other people. there will be companies that use india for manufacturing and exporting but they would also be geared for the india market (that is different to PRC where many companies deal solely with exports). I also think that you are underestimating the ability of chinese at business. chinese are good business men and woman. These do not include chinese only from PRC but yes they are good business man and woman from PRC. Will these chinese want to come to India and do business for example look at mexico - look at germany. Will the Indians go to PRC and other markets first. It is more likely the latter. Will the Japanese, Koreans, Americans, even compared to PRC the British, Europeans come to India - yes if the projects are of high appreciation and value - further India wants to enter those markets more compared to PRC. The dynamics of the region and the world means PRC will face (more) hurdles compared to others and rightly. It is because of history and frankly the adverse nature of PRC policy that fears India rise. Will PRC and chinese do more business with India - definitely yes but it will be on a larger scale on what is already being done.

Ultimately there is also the role of India to PRC and PRC to India. What do they mean to one another. India is not a route stop on the way to PRC for others. Also PRC is not the end-point for India. Also PRC is not the leader of asia and the world. Also it is fine for PRC to make bridges and roads in India but that can be also done by others. What can PRC offers that for example Japanese, Koreans, Americans, even compared to PRC the British, Europeans, and ASEAN countries cannot offer. If you are saying money - India does not need money. India has said there is 1 trillion worth of infrastructure market for investors - not India needs 1 trillion cash. Think about that because the geography and also the history has shown that India and PRC will have to deal with one another and the region and the world will depend on how these two giants work together.

It will help if PRC drops Pakistan in favor of India. Not only will that be good for PRC but the world.

 

[Compersion]

Ok, my friend, you have to admit that you really don't understand what Pakistan means to China's economic map!
I will give you a tip: middle east!

No, India doesn't have that money, that is why you are seeking FDI to support these infrastructure project!

India has money that is managed by way of transparent means and through budgets and is not wasted through exuberance and it is not unlimited money. India will be able to finance projects on its own but FDI is needed for expertise and also partnership and frankly large scale that would take a longer time if india went on it alone. It will also to some extent help the CAD and also increase trade with the FDI partner and thereby increasing the whole relationship for both parties. FDI in India is used to finance projects, bring in expertise on large scale that has a strong ROI component within and India wants foreign partners to come in to establish relationships and partnerships that will be good for the parties involved.

The same words have been repeated by the Indians like you for decades! Now, India is still sitting on its great potentials while there was no signs of these Japanese/Korean/American money yet!

I am not sure where you are looking but there are clear signs for everyone to see.

Ok, my friend, you have to admit that you really don't understand what Pakistan means to China's economic map!
I will give you a tip: middle east!

Pakistan is like the North Koreans to PRC. Ultimately it is a relationship that is embarrassing for PRC. It is also a relationship that PRC likes to undervalue to others because it is humiliating especially since they cling on like parasites. This is the first time i am seeing PRC equate Pakistan to any economic dimension and especially to middle east. Do you know there are probably better arab speakers at the higher level in PRC compared to Pakistan that matter in dealing between places of importance in middle east. what about Myanmar. Also do you know the middle east would rather deal with PRC directly and avoid anyone else especially Pakistan (on a serious note).

If you are referring to the economic corridor and also some (military) port in Baluchistan ... if we take the best case that it is developed and completed the corridor and also area like you are imagining - please dont think the trade and people will go from PRC towards the arabian sea. It will come one way only from Pakistan (no where else) into PRC. They will monopolize that for themselves and will cause PRC more headaches.

I am sure PRC has the benefit of experiencing the Paki mindset and behavior before and will in the future. I am surprised there is a charade that Pakis are good for PRC.

 

[Compersion]

There is no so called India and China competition of oil and gas simply because that India doesn't have that money so that India is not in a position to compete with price. And thanks to India's Pakistan relationship, it is not in a position to influence Arabian's oil policy politically either. And with American's protection, India can't threat any of them. So,let's get back into real world.

I would like to disagree with what you say. Firstly the above was mentioned because a earlier poster had mentioned the Eurasian Architecture - and i referred that it was PRC trying to play the great game that is being played by european countries currently in central asia and India would not have any role in it especially with the PRC objective to hedge against Russia and also using India to be a route through to PRC and also using the good credentials of india to secure relationships - there is also talk above calling the SCO to be like the OPEC. Next India and PRC had originally planned to work together on securing oil and had bid jointly on some projects. But this was stopped because like you refer to the dynamics of the relationship and there were few markets where both india and PRC were able to work together. Next there is enough oil and producers at this moment for india and prc to get oil. If you refer to India not having influence in middle east - please evaluate the saudi arabia and iran oil relationship recently and how the oil was increased and managed for both. it was due to america role and support not PRC role and not Paki role. there is now iraq.

One thing with all of these areas -> they are closer to India compared to PRC. Does that count on influence ...

I believe ultimately for the future people will talk more about alternative energy and also hybrid technology. If PRC and India lock horns over middle east that would be silly and unnecessary.

 

[no smoking]

India has money that is managed by way of transparent means and through budgets and is not wasted through exuberance and it is not unlimited money. India will be able to finance projects on its own but FDI is needed for expertise and also partnership and frankly large scale that would take a longer time if india went on it alone. It will also to some extent help the CAD and also increase trade with the FDI partner and thereby increasing the whole relationship for both parties. FDI in India is used to finance projects, bring in expertise on large scale that has a strong ROI component within and India wants foreign partners to come in to establish relationships and partnerships that will be good for the parties involved.

Yes, your fellow indians said the same words 10 years ago -- "India WILL have the money". But until today, we have seen that kind of scale of money yet. So, please tell when exactly India can pull that money from its own pocket?

I am not sure where you are looking but there are clear signs for everyone to see.

Oh, really? I am looking at India's double deficits! What signs do you find? India's brilliant plans?

Pakistan is like the North Koreans to PRC. Ultimately it is a relationship that is embarrassing for PRC. It is also a relationship that PRC likes to undervalue to others because it is humiliating especially since they cling on like parasites. This is the first time i am seeing PRC equate Pakistan to any economic dimension and especially to middle east. Do you know there are probably better arab speakers at the higher level in PRC compared to Pakistan that matter in dealing between places of importance in middle east. what about Myanmar. Also do you know the middle east would rather deal with PRC directly and avoid anyone else especially Pakistan (on a serious note).

If you are referring to the economic corridor and also some (military) port in Baluchistan ... if we take the best case that it is developed and completed the corridor and also area like you are imagining - please dont think the trade and people will go from PRC towards the arabian sea. It will come one way only from Pakistan (no where else) into PRC. They will monopolize that for themselves and will cause PRC more headaches.

I am sure PRC has the benefit of experiencing the Paki mindset and behavior before and will in the future. I am surprised there is a charade that Pakis are good for PRC.

Ok, kid, there is nothing more we can discuss if you just simply let your hatred towards Pakistan to dominate every subject.

 

[prohumanity]

Will China not hate a neighboring country who infilterates terrorists inside China ..to create fear and hurt Chinese economy? There is a reason why Indians do not like Paki..because Paki is the breeding ground of terrorists and Paki uses them to advance its agenda of creating terror in stronger, better and prosperous India. Using Paki against India has never worked and will never work as Paki is becoming a liability each day....a bottomless pit of financial need...which China will never be able to fill...