China May 'Crash' in Next 9 to 12 Months, Faber Says

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,849
The coming Chinese collapse

click this for The coming Chinese collapse>> http://www.jstor.org/pss/1149004
by Jack A. Goldstone © 1995

and

Bursting China's Bubble >> http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/49881/richard-hornik/bursting-chinas-bubble
Richard Hornik May/June 1994

Summary: China's economic "boom" is more mirage than miracle, and rosy predictions are based on its neighbors' successes not Beijing's ability to sustain growth. The regime is more akin to Latin America's hyperinflationary Peronistas than East Asia's ascetic militarists. Beijing has flunked the fundamentals of sound fiscal and monetary policy and proven incapable of accommodating the impulses of a free market. Inflation, speculation and lax regulation are fueling a bubble economy.

Richard Hornik, on leave from his post as Senior Correspondent for Time magazine, is currently Journalist-in-Residence at the East-West Center in Honolulu. He was formerly TimeÂ’s Bureau Chief in Beijing (1985-87) and Hong Kong (1991-93).


Part of the problem of analyzing China has long been that any critical view is seen as anti-Chinese. Simply to question the accomplishments of a 4,000-year-old civilization is taken as evidence of bias and, generally speaking, broad-gauge attacks on China's ancient political culture, particularly by foreigners, are dismissed out of hand. That said, even those most optimistic about the Chinese economic "miracle" should take a careful look at the present regime's track record before making sweeping predictions about China's future economic growth.

In the long debate over the best political and economic path to modernization, an East Asian "model" has seemingly emerged overnight. In the eyes of many, East Asia's success has proven that democracy, even pluralism, is a luxury to be indulged only after substantial economic progress has been made. Not only that, but economic progress itself is best guaranteed by a "soft" authoritarian regime. Only such a system, it is argued, can enforce the fiscal and monetary discipline that so often eludes democracies, which are forced to pander to public opinion or selfish interest groups. The benign intervention of wizened authoritarians can drive and direct economic growth, more easily allocate resources, push through austerity reforms that are beneficial in the long term but unpopular in the short, and all the while create an environment conducive to the growth of private enterprise.

The success of China's neighbors has provided the rationale behind grandiose projections about the Chinese economy becoming the world's largest in the year 2000, 2010, 2020, take your pick. This model is widely considered to provide grounds for the political legitimacy that Beijing will need if a new social contract is to be written with the Chinese people. East Asia's success is also the primary argument against efforts to force China to liberalize its political system. Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore's senior minister, early last year warned the Clinton administration against meddling in China's domestic affairs, saying, "I would put that as the greatest error that could be made."

When looking back, what shall we say about those predictions made in 1990's?
 

tarunraju

Sanathan Pepe
Mod
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
9,080
Likes
40,077
Country flag
Such "predictions" come and go all the time. All these really cause is a couple of weeks' bear-hug on the Chinese markets.
 

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
guy, we are lucky guys who are experiencing how 1.3 billion people are rising from agricuture-based society to a industrialized society.

we are experiencing how CHinese civilization is recovering and going back to its dominancing postion from the fall after 1840 .

white people of west civiliaztion have fallen and lost the creativity , determination and hard-working will . They are used to the cozy life without hard work. they forget one eteral truth: No pains ,no gains".

If west countries still give up real material-wealth creating-activity and keep on chasing "quick bucks" by wall street magic, they would skew themselves.

No society or civilization can survive long based on "quick bucks".
 
Last edited:

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
CCP has declared that all county-level and prefecture-level governmental financial vehicles would be abolished , in order to prevent local government's financial risk.
I would like to see that in writing.
 

SATISH

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
2,038
Likes
303
Country flag
3 pages on a wet dream..its pathetic man. China is going to stay and if people have issues with that then they have to see the doc. The Chinese economy is well entrenched with the dollar. So if China goes down so will the world economy. I aint an economist...but i aint dumb enough to believe this article.
 

Phenom

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
878
Likes
406
Marc Faber is a very respected guy, if he makes such a statement, then there may be more substance in it.
While most of us may think such a crash would be a good think for India, but its unlikely to be.
World hasn't gotten out of the first set of economic blows that came from US, right now the world is also dealing with a crisis in Euro Zone, if China collapses at this time, it will lead to a double dip that may take a long time to recover from.

So lets hope CCP manages to put something together and avert such a crisis.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
I don't know what you all are talking about by crash, it sounds like you mean total implosion of CCP. That is not what I'm calling. What is happening is the implosion of China's debt ratio, wiping out of trillions in middle class assets, and setting their economy back 10 years in projected growth. What is being called is China's lost decade.
 

sob

Mod
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
6,425
Likes
3,805
Country flag
These are tough times for the Chinese authorities. You cannot dictate that we want 8% and we will get 8%. Markets do not necessarily react in a predictable fashion and the same goes for the economy. After all it is based on one word -trust. We trust on bits of paper called currency. If the trust is lost then you have a situation similar to Zimbabwe where the inflation rate was in couple of 100% and the Govt was printing millions of Dollar Bank notes which could not buy a loaf of bread.

The main advantage for China is the level of control the Govt. has over the banks and the economy. So far they have been very successful in running the economy and managing the exchange rate. The difficulty will be in reining in the runaway horse without getting overthrown. Only time will tell how well the present situation is handled.
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
I am not an economist but I have a question.
Why doesn't the CCP stem the rut by enforcing strict economic regulations even if the economy grows are 5 or 6% for the next 2-3 years and then come back with better performance after its financial system is reformed? I don't think China will lose anything by growing at 6 which is still a respectable growth rate and if it can in the mean while set policies and regulations for the future, then it will surely help them. Otherwise as I understand from what I have read it would lead to a bit of a crash in the economy and some weak sentiment internationally with regards to china which might bring down its growth even further.
 

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
I am not an economist but I have a question.
Why doesn't the CCP stem the rut by enforcing strict economic regulations even if the economy grows are 5 or 6% for the next 2-3 years and then come back with better performance after its financial system is reformed? I don't think China will lose anything by growing at 6 which is still a respectable growth rate and if it can in the mean while set policies and regulations for the future, then it will surely help them. Otherwise as I understand from what I have read it would lead to a bit of a crash in the economy and some weak sentiment internationally with regards to china which might bring down its growth even further.
the precondition of you idea that Chinese finanical system is terrible now and needs a harsh reform.
but the necessity of such a harsh reform doesn't exist at all.

guy, can you tell me which country now has a better finiancial system than CHina's?

Case is that China financial system performs much better than most other countries', including india,let alone USA.


Of course, China's financial system is not perfect, and reform still is needed .

but since Chinese financial system is not still decent, it is not necessary to have a harsh reform now.
 
Last edited:

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
These are tough times for the Chinese authorities. You cannot dictate that we want 8% and we will get 8%. Markets do not necessarily react in a predictable fashion and the same goes for the economy. After all it is based on one word -trust. We trust on bits of paper called currency. If the trust is lost then you have a situation similar to Zimbabwe where the inflation rate was in couple of 100% and the Govt was printing millions of Dollar Bank notes which could not buy a loaf of bread.

The main advantage for China is the level of control the Govt. has over the banks and the economy. So far they have been very successful in running the economy and managing the exchange rate. The difficulty will be in reining in the runaway horse without getting overthrown. Only time will tell how well the present situation is handled.
inflation happens usually when supplies can not balance demands.


Hyper inflation happens in Zimbabwe ,just because supplies in Zimbabwe can not meet the demands .
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
inflation happens usually when supplies can not balance demands.

Hyper inflation happens in Zimbabwe ,just because supplies in Zimbabwe can not meet the demands .
Inflation happens in Zimbabwe because Mugabe printed money like a mad man ie $10 million bill. IIRC, China's M2 money supply has doubled in the last couple of years.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
I am not an economist but I have a question.
Why doesn't the CCP stem the rut by enforcing strict economic regulations even if the economy grows are 5 or 6% for the next 2-3 years and then come back with better performance after its financial system is reformed? I don't think China will lose anything by growing at 6 which is still a respectable growth rate and if it can in the mean while set policies and regulations for the future, then it will surely help them. Otherwise as I understand from what I have read it would lead to a bit of a crash in the economy and some weak sentiment internationally with regards to china which might bring down its growth even further.
China is addicted to GDP growth numbers. Everything CCP does from the top down is reaching that target goal. If they cut back they feel there will be social unrest and the people will revolt. So they have addicted themselves to the heroin of construction to drive their numbers. They think they can build their way to a prosperous economy without the economic regulations that go with it. They don't plan on serious reforms until they surpass the US in GDP and can shout "We are #1!. One thing CCP doesn't want to show is weakness, so they will keep driving that GDP at any and all costs.
 

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
Inflation happens in Zimbabwe because Mugabe printed money like a mad man ie $10 million bill. IIRC, China's M2 money supply has doubled in the last couple of years.
guy, "printing more money" does not naturally brings hyper inflation.


only when industries can not produce enough material goods to balance the additional demands brought by "printing more money", does inflation appear.


In fact ,USA is also busy "pring more money" ,so were EU ,CHina and almost all countries in the world after the crisis. but inflation doesn't appear in those countries, because enough materials goods are there to balance additional demand.
 

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
China is addicted to GDP growth numbers. Everything CCP does from the top down is reaching that target goal. If they cut back they feel there will be social unrest and the people will revolt. So they have addicted themselves to the heroin of construction to drive their numbers. They think they can build their way to a prosperous economy without the economic regulations that go with it. They don't plan on serious reforms until they surpass the US in GDP and can shout "We are #1!. One thing CCP doesn't want to show is weakness, so they will keep driving that GDP at any and all costs.
a addition to GDP growth is much better than a addiction to issue bounced cheques for more votes

any how, it is not bad to increase GDP. Measured by any criterion, it is a great achievement to surpass US in GDP . If one is No_One, it is not wrong for him to shout " We are NO.1".

If one party can manage his country to have world NO. 1 GDP ,it would deserve praise and applauds ,wherever the party is .
 
Last edited:

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
guy, "printing more money" does not naturally brings hyper inflation.


only when industries can not produce enough material goods to balance the additional demands brought by "printing more money", does inflation appear.


In fact ,USA is also busy "pring more money" ,so were EU ,CHina and almost all countries in the world after the crisis. but inflation doesn't appear in those countries, because enough materials goods are there to balance additional demand.
guy, "printing money" does lead to inflation. It is a basic law of macro economics called demand-pull. It is exactly what is happening in China right now.

When China cuts off locals ability to spend their money outside the country, the demand curve is increased beyond CCPs ability to meet supply. Case in point, property markets, money has flooded into it because there is no other place to put it, now it is in its own hyper inflation.

Chinese demand isn't for consumer goods, it is for property and now you have your bubble. lol
 

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
guy, "printing money" does lead to inflation. It is a basic law of macro economics called demand-pull. It is exactly what is happening in China right now.

When China cuts off locals ability to spend their money outside the country, the demand curve is increased beyond CCPs ability to meet supply. Case in point, property markets, money has flooded into it because there is no other place to put it, now it is in its own hyper inflation.

Chinese demand isn't for consumer goods, it is for property and now you have your bubble. lol
you are reforging my word,guy.

what I said is " printing more money does not naturally brings hyper inflation"... where is my "naturally" in your quoted words?

"printing more money" can bring more demands.

however, as long as enough supplies can meet the additional demands brought by "printing more money", inflation will not "naturally" come.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
you are reforging my word,guy.

what I said is " printing more money does not naturally brings hyper inflation"... where is my "naturally" in your quoted words?

"printing more money" can bring more demands.

however, as long as enough supplies can meet the additional demands brought by "printing more money", inflation will not "naturally" come.
Guy, printing more money increases demand because there is more money to spend. China printed more money by lending exorbitant amounts and instead of people buying things on the CPI list, they put it in property.
 

badguy2000

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
5,133
Likes
746
Guy, printing more money increases demand because there is more money to spend. China printed more money by lending exorbitant amounts and instead of people buying things on the CPI list, they put it in property.
guy, there are enough cases of "printing more money" without inflation......China during 2003-2009, Japan duirng 1950-1977.....because their industries provided enough supplies to balance increasing demand.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
guy, there are enough cases of "printing more money" without inflation......China during 2003-2009, Japan duirng 1950-1977.....because their industries provided enough supplies to balance increasing demand.
China doesn't have bad inflation because CPI doesn't measure property. Chinese consumers aren't demanding much of anything to raise it, money is going into property. Chinese consumer spending is 35% of GDP and getting lower every year, if Chinese don't buy more, there is little inflation to the CPI. If you added property, it would be 20-30%.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top