China Economy: News & Discussion

[rockdog]

The economic times article is worth less than the paper it is written on. And this data is from 2017. And we don’t know how exactly R&D investments are computed, do we? India is well known for poor collection of data, improperly defining what something means etc? For example, india is a lot more urbanized than what the Indian data shows. This is because the government policy retards have not properly defined what urbanization means in the year 2022.

if you think so，your previous quote on FDI on R&D is worthless. God knows they are real or not.

This development should be a massive threat for CCPia. The skill development alone, not to mention the wealth and income, is going to drive further massive innovation in India.

India widens global lead in research and development FDI

The country attracted as many foreign R&D projects as China, US and UK combined in 2022

www.fdiintelligence.com

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Because the door to stealing blueprints has been shut for the CCP, even in non-critical technology now. Despite all bluster, this route was the only reason the CCP could even design the J20 or get up the R&D value chain. Contrast this to India’s AMCA which was completely designed by India. So all future enhancements in CCPia are going to get much longer as there no more shortcuts.
The willingness of the west to quickly get Indian engine R&D up to speed depends on:
- size of the Indian engine market, which is substantial
- hostility against CCPia, which is firmly established
- tolerate india as a great world power - almost all countries are ok with this and not threatened by india’s rise
- eventually Indians will get there on engine development
- critical western defense technology is already being done in India. Days are not far off when even parts of F35B get manufactured in India. India is the west’s and possibly even japan’s manufacturing place of choice for defense technology. Israel scales almost all its defense technology in India now. That is a trust level that the CCP will never get.

Meanwhile the CCP has to do all of this by itself as you cannot shortcut anymore. Even the US and Europe developed a lot of critical technologies via collaboration. You are the one being naive to think that the CCP is some super human power that can do whatever it wants in the timeframe it wants, all alone and by itself. I call utter bullshit on this opium-induced optimism. It is India’s game to lose, really, as all strategic and technical factors have neatly lined up for India thanks to the stupid CCP wolf warrior and Covid strategies.

All I've read from you is a lot of happy talk about a future fantasy world where the West gives India everything and you suddenly catch up. And how China will suddenly slow down. You are hoping and coping without any sense of reality.

Sorry, in aircraft engines as well as every other high tech sector in the world, China leads India in both quality and quantity by an overwhelming margin.

China has built over 1000 WS-10Cs for the J-20 program alone -- over 200 new twin-engined fighters in a few years period. And that's not including those for the J-10, J-16 and J-15.

India cannot put its one and only engine the Kaveri even on an aircraft. Decades of Indian research and India has built an engine that Indians are too afraid to put into a manned test machine!

The projects in China are proliferating into every weight class and mode and they are completing faster and faster because the infrastructure is in place and the infrastructure itself is getting better as it builds engines in the thousands to hone its craft.

It took the WS-10 15 years from 1986 to first flight in 2001 on a J-11WS testbed and then another 8 years until 2009 for WS-10A mass production on the J-11B.

It took the WS-13 just 7 years from 2000 to 2007 for certification and then enter limited serial production in 2009 and has been powering single-engine JF-17 testbeds -- India couldn't even risk the Kaveri on a LCA. The WS-13 is powering critical FC-31 and J-35 prototypes (though some say the J-35 is already flying with WS-19!)

Sorry, the quality and quantity of finished products and new projects in China's engine industry is accelerating upwards and the time from design to production is shortening. The gap with India is widening to infinity until you can get that first engine to fly. You cannot divide 1000s of engines in China by zero engines in India to get an ratio for comparison

But we'll see what happens here in the coming years in the 110kN contest between the WS-19 and your aspirational engine that RR/SaFran will help you with

 

[jadoogar]

Interesting discussion. I know nothing about Jet Engine Development or the status of various engines. However, the comments of SCL are interesting. After 30-40+/- years there is nothing to show for Kaveri and there is nothing else. There seems to be hope for RR, Safran etc colloboration but over the decades nothing has come of it.

So one wonders ... is it because of incompetence, corruption on part of the engine development agency - ? or is it something else ?

RTHG is just ra ra ra --
China is a black box so we do not know if what SCL says about their engines is true or not!

India of course has access to RR/Safran/other engines and so does not really need its own...
but there goes strategic autonomy

perhaps they should take the kaveri team, physically isolate computer infrastructure from the outside, and then assess and start again...

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Interesting discussion. I know nothing about Jet Engine Development or the status of various engines. However, the comments of SCL are interesting. After 30-40+/- years there is nothing to show for Kaveri and there is nothing else. There seems to be hope for RR, Safran etc colloboration but over the decades nothing has come of it.

So one wonders ... is it because of incompetence, corruption on part of the engine development agency - ? or is it because of sabotage through these colloborations ? - or through other standard techniques that are used in such situations ?

RTHG is just ra ra ra --
China is a black box so we do not know if what SCL says about their engines is true or not!

India of course has access to RR/Safran/other engines and so does not really need its own...
but there goes strategic autonomy

perhaps they should take the kaveri team, physically isolate computer infrastructure from the outside, and then assess and start again...

Some things about China are black boxes.

Other things are out in the open and in your face showering you with an jet engine blast

It is a matter of wanting to see reality as it really is

There are no illusions from turbofans powering aircraft:

The evidence is out in the open. The engine either powers an aircraft or it does not. It is mass produced in numbers or it is not. It is exported or it is not. There is no middle ground or "black boxes" here

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

All I've read from you is a lot of happy talk about a future fantasy world where the West gives India everything and you suddenly catch up. And how China will suddenly slow down. You are hoping and coping without any sense of reality.

Sorry, in aircraft engines as well as every other high tech sector in the world, China leads India in both quality and quantity by an overwhelming margin.

China has built over 1000 WS-10Cs for the J-20 program alone -- over 200 new twin-engined fighters in a few years period. And that's not including those for the J-10, J-16 and J-15.

India cannot put its one and only engine the Kaveri even on an aircraft. Decades of Indian research and India has built an engine that Indians are too afraid to put into a manned test machine!

The projects in China are proliferating into every weight class and mode and they are completing faster and faster because the infrastructure is in place and the infrastructure itself is getting better as it builds engines in the thousands to hone its craft.

It took the WS-10 15 years from 1986 to first flight in 2001 on a J-11WS testbed and then another 8 years until 2009 for WS-10A mass production on the J-11B.

It took the WS-13 just 7 years from 2000 to 2007 for certification and then enter limited serial production in 2009 and has been powering single-engine JF-17 testbeds -- India couldn't even risk the Kaveri on a LCA. The WS-13 is powering critical FC-31 and J-35 prototypes (though some say the J-35 is already flying with WS-19!)

Sorry, the quality and quantity of finished products and new projects in China's engine industry is accelerating upwards and the time from design to production is shortening. The gap with India is widening to infinity until you can get that first engine to fly. You cannot divide 1000s of engines in China by zero engines in India to get an ratio for comparison

But we'll see what happens here in the coming years in the 110kN contest between the WS-19 and your aspirational engine that RR/SaFran will help you with

the stats coming out of CCP State owned Enterprises is not credible. It is not just Indians but no one in the world is going to believe that. Period. The 1000s of engines could be a myth, for all that we know. But even if we agree to a discounted numbers (estimates are that 300-500 have been produced) , the WS10 project started off with a ToT from the US via the GE F101 that CCPia obtained in the 1980s. Clearly the CCP played the Soviet Union card to its advantage, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56
So you did the same thing in the 80s that india is doing now. The west’s propping up of CCPia against the Soviet Union played a huge role in your early start, something that was not available to India. Now the global strategic relations are getting reversed with the west preferring India.
Meanwhile, being in the Soviet camp, India did not get any such technology transfer in the 80s. That’s why the Kaveri suffers. The CCP designers were practical enough to start from a technology transfer early in the 80s while the GTRE idiots did not think of that. Such stupid decisions continue to be taken in the name of “strategic autonomy“, even today, when DRDO refused SAFRAN’s offer for joint development, thinking they can still mature the GTRE tech.

The best article about the status of the WS series engines is the one below:

Chinese Aircraft Engines Are Actually "Chinese".....

American Engines are niche technology, Russain AL-41 Engine is advancing but still behind with western ones, where Chinese Engines Stand?

www.defencexp.com

I see plenty of Indians sucking up to the CCP MIC without knowing how exaggerated the CCP‘s claims are. And no I don’t agree that CCPia’s quality is ahead of India’s products in all areas. For example, india branded automobiles outsell the CCP garbage in developing countries around the world, and even in better developed countries like South Africa. The same goes for pharmaceutical products.

Indian brand value growth is better than China and the world, says latest BrandZ report

HDFC Bank has retained its position as India's most valuable brand, with 21% growth to $21.7 bn, according to WPP and Kantar Millward Brown’s BrandZ most valuable Indian brands analysis.

www.thedrum.com

 

[jadoogar]

>>...The CCP designers were practical enough to start from a technology transfer early in the 80s while the GTRE idiots did not think of that. Such stupid decisions continue to be taken in the name of “strategic autonomy“, even today, when DRDO refused SAFRAN’s offer for joint development, thinking they can still mature the GTRE tech. ...<

I had read on this forum a couple of years ago that Lockheed was a partner for the LCA project. But in the middle they threw out the LCA team from their facilities and the team had to restart a lot of work ??? Similarly Safran already has decades of experience.. - so what is this joint development ? - they are going to send people with no knowledge / experience to redevelop this thing... I think that GTRE's decision is the right one. What if they just slow you down? - you have no recourse if that happens

From what I understand the two main items in the jet engine are physical configuration and metallurgy. So for 1. GTRE already has designs and also access to existing engines.
For 2 it is not a difficult task to analyze a blade for composition. The other part is apparently crystallization of the alloy to get to single crystals or whatever. Those techniques are known ... and it is a question of trial and error .. ... which takes time. Better to start now than later.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

the stats coming out of CCP State owned Enterprises is not credible. It is not just Indians but no one in the world is going to believe that. Period. The 1000s of engines could be a myth, for all that we know. But even if we agree to a discounted numbers (estimates are that 300-500 have been produced) , the WS10 project started off with a ToT from the US via the GE F101 that CCPia obtained in the 1980s. Clearly the CCP played the Soviet Union card to its advantage, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56
So you did the same thing in the 80s that india is doing now. The west’s propping up of CCPia against the Soviet Union played a huge role in your early start, something that was not available to India. Now the global strategic relations are getting reversed with the west preferring India.
Meanwhile, being in the Soviet camp, India did not get any such technology transfer in the 80s. That’s why the Kaveri suffers. The CCP designers were practical enough to start from a technology transfer early in the 80s while the GTRE idiots did not think of that. Such stupid decisions continue to be taken in the name of “strategic autonomy“, even today, when DRDO refused SAFRAN’s offer for joint development, thinking they can still mature the GTRE tech.

The best article about the status of the WS series engines is the one below:

Chinese Aircraft Engines Are Actually "Chinese".....

American Engines are niche technology, Russain AL-41 Engine is advancing but still behind with western ones, where Chinese Engines Stand?

www.defencexp.com

I see plenty of Indians sucking up to the CCP MIC without knowing how exaggerated the CCP‘s claims are. And no I don’t agree that CCPia’s quality is ahead of India’s products in all areas. For example, india branded automobiles outsell the CCP garbage in developing countries around the world, and even in better developed countries like South Africa. The same goes for pharmaceutical products.

Indian brand value growth is better than China and the world, says latest BrandZ report

HDFC Bank has retained its position as India's most valuable brand, with 21% growth to $21.7 bn, according to WPP and Kantar Millward Brown’s BrandZ most valuable Indian brands analysis.

www.thedrum.com

A picture is worth a thousand words

So I'll show you this one. These are two Y-20B prototypes powered by four WS-20 engines each. The Y-20 is the largest military transport in production anywhere:

That picture shows both an aircraft and the engine powering it that India cannot build now and does not even dream of attempt. Why? I see no projects in the far or near horizon for such a combination.

The jet engine industry is just a microcosm of these China vs India economic, scientific and industrial comparisons.

So instead of all these long winded responses of insinuations, fantasies and excuses just show us a picture of an Indian engine powering something that you think represents India's progress or future. I posted mine and my reason for choosing it.

We can compare real actual things instead of just words

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

>>...The CCP designers were practical enough to start from a technology transfer early in the 80s while the GTRE idiots did not think of that. Such stupid decisions continue to be taken in the name of “strategic autonomy“, even today, when DRDO refused SAFRAN’s offer for joint development, thinking they can still mature the GTRE tech. ...<

I had read on this forum a couple of years ago that Lockheed was a partner for the LCA project. But in the middle they threw out the LCA team from their facilities and the team had to restart a lot of work ??? Similarly Safran already has decades of experience.. - so what is this joint development ? - they are going to send people with no knowledge / experience to redevelop this thing... I think that GTRE's decision is the right one. What if they just slow you down? - you have no recourse if that happens

From what I understand the two main items in the jet engine are physical configuration and metallurgy. So for 1. GTRE already has designs and also access to existing engines.
For 2 it is not a difficult task to analyze a blade for composition. The other part is apparently crystallization of the alloy to get to single crystals or whatever. Those techniques are known ... and it is a question of trial and error .. ... which takes time. Better to start now than later.

I think DRDO thought that the $1 billion fee was too high. And that it is better invested in local R&D. I agree as long as local R&D create infrastructure and new skills ecosystem. The person who heads DRDO is very smart and has proven accomplishments. Dr. Reddy knows the issues and under him several programs have accelerated and are delivering - HSTDV and Ruston 2, for example. If you listen to his interviews, he says SAFRAN is collaborating with DRDO as part of offsets from Rafale sale on creating some infrastructure for engine development ecosystem. But my point was the CCP somehow (most likely the Soviet Union card) got a ToT in the 80s from Americans that started their engine development research. But we got shut out as we were considered as too close to the Soviets, which we were.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

A picture is worth a thousand words

So I'll show you this one. These are two Y-20B prototypes powered by four WS-20 engines each. The Y-20 is the largest military transport in production anywhere:
View attachment 185464

That picture shows both an aircraft and the engine powering it that India cannot build now and does not even dream of attempt. Why? I see no projects in the far or near horizon for such a combination.

The jet engine industry is just a microcosm of these China vs India economic, scientific and industrial comparisons.

So instead of all these long winded responses of insinuations, fantasies and excuses just show us a picture of an Indian engine powering something that you think represents India's progress or future. I posted mine and my reason for choosing it.

We can compare real actual things instead of just words

Just following a Soviet methodology of sticking in underpowered engines onto platforms. A similar picture with Soviet engines can be had from the 70s. You are 50 years late. Lol.
if the ecosystem development is what you are saying here, India too has built hundreds of lower powered engines called Shakti engines for its helicopters. Sure these are not as powerful as needed for large aircrafts but the method to mass produce jet engines utilizing dozens of private players exists in India. This will get upgraded to producing heavy class engines in India, in time.
the CCP developed SSBNs in the 70s. India developed only now. Every country has its own timeline for development, depending on strategic needs. In supersonic missiles, India was a decade ahead of CCPia. Right now, we have no threads attached access to top of the line GE engines, which you don’t have. Hence your urgency. Things like QUAD stem fellowships (open only to students from Japan, India, Australia, the US) for education in top rated fields including metallurgy are happening. Just like you became the darling of the west to counter the soviets, we are going to milk the west to counter you. So, why do we have to rush and follow your timeline for engine development? Is Japan rushing to do engine development despite both Russian and CCP threats right next to them?
We have other priorities like developing the most advanced drone systems under the US-India DTIA agreement, so we can blast PLA assets from the sky MQ9 predator and reaper style. And developing top grade engine ecosystems for those.
Check back in 2030 instead of yakking about engine technology that have just barely caught up to 70s era Soviet engine performance.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Just following a Soviet methodology of sticking in underpowered engines onto platforms. A similar picture with Soviet engines can be had from the 70s. You are 50 years late. Lol.
if the ecosystem development is what you are saying here, India too has built hundreds of lower powered engines called Shakti engines for its helicopters. Sure these are not as powerful as needed for large aircrafts but the method to mass produce jet engines utilizing dozens of private players exists in India. This will get upgraded to producing heavy class engines in India, in time.
the CCP developed SSBNs in the 70s. India developed only now. Every country has its own timeline for development, depending on strategic needs. In supersonic missiles, India was a decade ahead of CCPia. Right now, we have no threads attached access to top of the line GE engines, which you don’t have. Hence your urgency. Things like QUAD stem fellowships (open only to students from Japan, India, Australia, the US) for education in top rated fields including metallurgy are happening. Just like you became the darling of the west to counter the soviets, we are going to milk the west to counter you. So, why do we have to rush and follow your timeline for engine development? Is Japan rushing to do engine development despite both Russian and CCP threats right next to them?
We have other priorities like developing the most advanced drone systems under the US-India DTIA agreement, so we can blast PLA assets from the sky MQ9 predator and reaper style. And developing top grade engine ecosystems for those.
Check back in 2030 instead of yakking about engine technology that have just barely caught up to 70s era Soviet engine performance.

WS-20 is a Chinese high-bypass engine of 140-160kN vs the 120kN D-30 on the IL-76

You don't have a picture of any Indian turbofan powering anything so you bring up these nonsensical attempts at insults:

1) India doesn't have a working turbofan engine of any sort so you should just give up now just because you'll be way more than 50 years late? What a foolish argument, you posed!

2) You dismiss Soviet era engines but the vast majority of your fighter fleet depends on the AL-31 and the RD-33. And unlike China you don't have a WS-10 or WS-13 to replace them!

3) The Shakti is a SaFran Ardiden variant. India is doing nothing here that is any more than what it is doing with the Al-31. You are assembling a foreign engine with some local parts under license,

4) Most of all turboshaft is nothing like a turbofan which needs to deal extreme heat and an afterburner. This is a clear sign that India has nothing in the turbofan space that you can point to as a sign to past, current or future achievement so you are forced throw out this deperate attempt with a helicopter engine. This is very sad

I would have given India props if you showed just one picture of the Kaveri on a Tejas. Just a test machine. It doesn't have to be in production -- like the WS-10 is on the J-10/11/15/16/20

Kaveri on Tejas today probably wouldn't be as impressive as four WS-20s on a Y-20B prototype:

Or two WS-13Es on a stealth carrier prototype like the J-35:

Or an AVEN TVC WS-10 on a J-10B prototype:

But it would have been something. But you unfortunately have nothing to show me beyond conjecture and opinion. The turbofan engine industry is a microcosm of practically every economic, industrial and technology comparison between China and India.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Kaveri was tested on an IL76 test bed. Pictures are available on the internet. That is how they found that the engine is underpowered. If your claim is that has Kaveri ever powered an aircraft even if it is underpowered, yes it has.

GTRE to finally get a Flying Test Bed? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Beyond that everything you wrote is just garbage. All you have done is caught up to 70s era Soviet technology. Just because we have Soviet engines doesn’t mean they are reliable. Indian defense minister himself has stated that the Soviet engines have low reliability and are expensive to maintain.
Ecosystems don’t develop overnight but India is on the right path building out various ecosystems right now including in metallurgy.
And this nonsense about India just being an assembler of engines must stop. It just makes you look like a fool. HAL has developed a complete ecosystem including making its own SCB for the shakti and manufacturing them through private partners. Currently 450 engines have been produced, per HAL. They expect a demand for 1000 more engines.

https://hal-india.co.in/News_Detail.aspx?Mkey=30&Ckey=334

Here’s SAFRAN themselves advertising that the engine was CO-DEVELOPED with HAL. There goes your lies. If you are going to lie, you must quit this forum. We have no patience for jokers like you, frankly.

https://www.safran-group.com/products-services/ardiden-1h1-shakti-engine-indian-dhruv-helicopter

HAL and Safran announce joint venture for helicopter engines

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Safran Helicopter Engines have announced a joint venture dedicated to the development, production, sales and support of helicopter engines.

verticalmag.com

Per Mr. Franck Saudo CEO SAFRAN Helicopter engines: “The creation of this new joint venture marks a turning point in our relationship with HAL and the Indian MoD with the development and production of a new generation of helicopter engine. We are proud to further expand our structuring partnership with HAL, which began more than 50 years ago, and which was recently illustrated with the development and production of the Shakti engine and the inauguration of our joint venture Helicopter Engines MRO Pvt Limited (HE-MRO). With a fleet of over 1,000 engines, India’s Armed Forces are one of the largest operators of Safran-designed helicopter engines.”

Where in the above do you think that SAFRAN considers HAL to be just an assembler?

if you are going to lie, I am going to kick your ass all day long.

 

[NocturnalOwl]

He is just a troll trying to bait people into argument. Obviously china is ahead of India and west is way ahead in China in aircraft Engines. But that does not meet China won't catch up with west or India would not catchup with China. Apart from the Topic Lot of Aircraft Engine manufacturers are setting up R&D centers in India also, that is a testament to the countries talent. India obviously can enjoy expertise and gain expertise from the west with its large young population. Meanwhile China has traverse the geopolitical environment and move ahead in technology with no help from west. It also has to support its aging population, so Xi is trying to make China lead in tech.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Kaveri was tested on an IL76 test bed. Pictures are available on the internet. That is how they found that the engine is underpowered. If your claim is that has Kaveri ever powered an aircraft even if it is underpowered, yes it has.

GTRE to finally get a Flying Test Bed? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Beyond that everything you wrote is just garbage. All you have done is caught up to 70s era Soviet technology. Just because we have Soviet engines doesn’t mean they are reliable. Indian defense minister himself has stated that the Soviet engines have low reliability and are expensive to maintain.
Ecosystems don’t develop overnight but India is on the right path building out various ecosystems right now including in metallurgy.
And this nonsense about India just being an assembler of engines must stop. It just makes you look like a fool. HAL has developed a complete ecosystem including making its own SCB for the shakti and manufacturing them through private partners. Currently 450 engines have been produced, per HAL. They expect a demand for 1000 more engines.

https://hal-india.co.in/News_Detail.aspx?Mkey=30&Ckey=334

Here’s SAFRAN themselves advertising that the engine was CO-DEVELOPED with HAL. There goes your lies. If you are going to lie, you must quit this forum. We have no patience for jokers like you, frankly.

https://www.safran-group.com/products-services/ardiden-1h1-shakti-engine-indian-dhruv-helicopter

HAL and Safran announce joint venture for helicopter engines

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Safran Helicopter Engines have announced a joint venture dedicated to the development, production, sales and support of helicopter engines.

verticalmag.com

Per Mr. Franck Saudo CEO SAFRAN Helicopter engines: “The creation of this new joint venture marks a turning point in our relationship with HAL and the Indian MoD with the development and production of a new generation of helicopter engine. We are proud to further expand our structuring partnership with HAL, which began more than 50 years ago, and which was recently illustrated with the development and production of the Shakti engine and the inauguration of our joint venture Helicopter Engines MRO Pvt Limited (HE-MRO). With a fleet of over 1,000 engines, India’s Armed Forces are one of the largest operators of Safran-designed helicopter engines.”

Where in the above do you think that SAFRAN considers HAL to be just an assembler?

if you are going to lie, I am going to kick your ass all day long.

The Il-76 has four engines as a testbed. The Kaveri didn't power it

Without those three D-30s, the Kaveri was not trustworthy which is why it never flew even as a test on the LCA.

Unlike the WS-10 which powered multiple single-engined J-10 prototypes before going full batch mass production on the J-10C and then exported

Come on, you have nothing in jet engines to show so you had to make a pathetic attempt at bringing up a turboshaft (helo engine) which if you looked it up on Google comes up as "Safran Ardiden" so yes very Indian -- of course not, it is French and it is a French design of an existing French engine, you can't lie about this

Seriously, bringing up a helo engine when we are discussing the turbofan industry is pretty lame. And so is using test on a Russian IL-76 as an example of the Kaveri "powering" something. That IL-76 would have flown even if you turned off the Kaveri

 

[SexyChineseLady]

He is just a troll trying to bait people into argument. Obviously china is ahead of India and west is way ahead in China in aircraft Engines. But that does not meet China won't catch up with west or India would not catchup with China. Apart from the Topic Lot of Aircraft Engine manufacturers are setting up R&D centers in India also, that is a testament to the countries talent. India obviously can enjoy expertise and gain expertise from the west with its large young population. Meanwhile China has traverse the geopolitical environment and move ahead in technology with no help from west. It also has to support its aging population, so Xi is trying to make China lead in tech.

The only reason we are even debating jet engines in a Chinese economic thread is because this particular India poster insists that China overwhelming presense as the top country in research papers, the top country in patents and the top country in engineering schools is somehow fake and that India is really ahead

So we took turbofan engines as an example to see who is correct. It would have been much worse if we chose silicon chips or EVs or the Space industry

China tops U.S. in quantity and quality of scientific papers

Report finds rapidly expanding Chinese research footprint while Japan falters

asia.nikkei.com

Innovation: China files almost half of the worlds patents, India lags far behind - Check details ,ZeeBiz Exclusive News, Business News | Zee Business

Patents Filing: Asias share in patent filing has increased, and out of the worlds total patents being filed - two-thirds are now being filed from the continent. A large share of this comes from China alone. , Get more ZeeBiz Exclusive News and Business News on Zee Business

www.zeebiz.com

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

 

[jai jaganath]

The Il-76 has four engines as a testbed. The Kaveri didn't power it

Without those three D-30s, the Kaveri was not trustworthy which is why it never flew even as a test on the LCA.

Unlike the WS-10 which powered multiple single-engined J-10 prototypes before going full batch mass production on the J-10C and then exported
View attachment 185593
View attachment 185595

Come on, you have nothing in jet engines to show so you had to make a pathetic attempt at bringing up a turboshaft (helo engine) which if you looked it up on Google comes up as "Safran Ardiden" so yes very Indian -- of course not, it is French and it is a French design of an existing French engine, you can't lie about this

View attachment 185596

Seriously, bringing up a helo engine when we are discussing the turbofan industry is pretty lame. And so is using test on a Russian IL-76 as an example of the Kaveri "powering" something. That IL-76 would have flown even if you turned off the Kaveri

I just want to clear the cold section of Shakti is made by us and we have the know-how
Hot section is assembled by us and we don't have know-how
Pls search in Google deeply not like random search
Just saying nothing else to add in the argument

 

[SexyChineseLady]

I just want to clear the cold section of Shakti is made by us and we have the know-how
Hot section is assembled by us and we don't have know-how
Pls search in Google deeply not like random search
Just saying nothing else to add in the argument

A helo engine shouldn't even be brought up in this argument otherwise there is a long list of Chinese turboshafts too

But since it was brought up I would say that not having the hot section means that engine belongs to SaFran and India has no real autonomy over this engine.

If one is going to bring up some helo engine to post up against an entire range of Chinese turbofans -- WS-10, WS-13, WS-11, WS-16, WS-18, WS-20, WS-15, WS-19, CJ1000, etc. -- at least make sure that helo engine is unequivocably Indian not one where the critical parts are controlled overseas.

 

[NutCracker]

The Il-76 has four engines as a testbed. The Kaveri didn't power it

Without those three D-30s, the Kaveri was not trustworthy which is why it never flew even as a test on the LCA.

THats why its called testbed.. did your WS-10 directly powered a single engine jet from the beginning .

You low IQ maggot only know how to search , please tell me which testbed WS-10 used ? was it single engine ?

Dont make foolish low IQ remarks.

Unlike the WS-10 which powered multiple single-engined J-10 prototypes before going full batch mass production on the J-10C and then exported
View attachment 185593
View attachment 185595

Come on, you have nothing in jet engines to show so you had to make a pathetic attempt at bringing up a turboshaft (helo engine) which if you looked it up on Google comes up as "Safran Ardiden" so yes very Indian -- of course not, it is French and it is a French design of an existing French engine, you can't lie about this

View attachment 185596

I wish that low IQ ccp little pink maggots like you and @rockdog browse something outside of Your CCP assigned threads,
You would know that we also have developed.

HAL HTSE-1200 - Wikipedia

HAL HTSE-1200 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is ours, with Hot section made by us.

Different bypass ratios and combination and upscaling can be done pretty fast once our economy becomes large to afford all the investment.

Seriously, bringing up a helo engine when we are discussing the turbofan industry is pretty lame. And so is using test on a Russian IL-76 as an example of the Kaveri "powering" something. That IL-76 would have flown even if you turned off the Kaveri

You CCP little pink maggots are also gloating about Turboprop planes just few pages back.

China Economy: News & Discussion

All of the WS engines have sub par performance. And there is no indication that WS13 or WS15 are even flightworthy. Looks like it will take the CCP at least a decade to get there. At that time if India and France have managed to pull off the 125kN engine, then yeah india will have an upper hand...

defenceforumindia.com

If you consider Turboshaft or Turbo prop irrelevant then you also should not make posts about them.

 

[jai jaganath]

A helo engine shouldn't even be brought up in this argument otherwise there is a long list of Chinese turboshafts too

But since it was brought up I would say that not having the hot section means that engine belongs to SaFran and India has no real autonomy over this engine.

If one is going to bring up some helo engine to post up against an entire range of Chinese turbofans -- WS-10, WS-13, WS-11, WS-16, WS-18, WS-20, WS-15, WS-19, CJ1000, etc. -- at least make sure that helo engine is unequivocably Indian not one where the critical parts are controlled overseas.

I didn't bring it
I just read your post and just thought to correct it
I am not into this argument

 

[DumbPilot]

THats why its called testbed.. did your WS-10 directly powered a single engine jet from the beginning .

You low IQ maggot only know how to search , please tell me which testbed WS-10 used ? was it single engine ?

Dont make foolish low IQ remarks.




I wish that low IQ ccp little pink maggots like you and @rockdog browse something outside of Your CCP assigned threads,
You would know that we also have developed.

HAL HTSE-1200 - Wikipedia

HAL HTSE-1200 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is ours, with Hot section made by us.

Different bypass ratios and combination and upscaling can be done pretty fast once our economy becomes large to afford all the investment.





You CCP little pink maggots are also gloating about Turboprop planes just few pages back.

China Economy: News & Discussion

All of the WS engines have sub par performance. And there is no indication that WS13 or WS15 are even flightworthy. Looks like it will take the CCP at least a decade to get there. At that time if India and France have managed to pull off the 125kN engine, then yeah india will have an upper hand...

defenceforumindia.com

If you consider Turboshaft or Turbo prop irrelevant then you also should not make posts about them.

It's clear this guy is just trolling. All I see is him reposting images and claiming China has engines.. anyone with knowledge knows it doesn't work like that . The Chinese are going to face lots of trouble with their tech with Uncle Sam breathing down their throat, and not to mention dealing with non matured designs...

On the other hand, thanks for posting all that. I gained new knowledge(I didn't know we made the HTSE-1200!), you should consider putting it in a thread for other people who may want to see that information too

 

[SexyChineseLady]

THats why its called testbed.. did your WS-10 directly powered a single engine jet from the beginning .

You know exactly why his answer was silly and was done in desperation

I posed this question:
So instead of all these long winded responses of insinuations, fantasies and excuses just show us a picture of an Indian engine powering something that you think represents India's progress or future.

His answer was to find the picture of the Kaveri being tested on a four-engined Il-76 in Russia which basically means the Kaveri cannot fly without three supporting engines

Yes, the WS-10 was on multi-engined platforms but eventually powered this very early J-10 prototype and did it way back in 2002 too!

The Kaveri was never put into in the LCA, the aircraft it was designed for. It never made the leap into reliability and therefore production.

I wish that low IQ ccp little pink maggots like you and @rockdog browse something outside of Your CCP assigned threads,
You would know that we also have developed.

HAL HTSE-1200 - Wikipedia

HAL HTSE-1200 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't believe in trolling other people's threads and calling them names like you and your friends are doing now

Please let me know when you have a picture of this HTSE powering an actual aircraft.

You CCP little pink maggots are also gloating about Turboprop planes just few pages back.

China Economy: News & Discussion

All of the WS engines have sub par performance. And there is no indication that WS13 or WS15 are even flightworthy. Looks like it will take the CCP at least a decade to get there. At that time if India and France have managed to pull off the 125kN engine, then yeah india will have an upper hand...

defenceforumindia.com

If you consider Turboshaft or Turbo prop irrelevant then you also should not make posts about them.

They are not irrelevant and the ones that China produces would make using your so-call indigenous Shakti as some sort of progress seem even more silly

Anyways, I just pointed out India has no turbofan worth posting about so suddenly throwing helo engines into the argument is silly.

Does India have a turboprop like the WJ-6? It powers a lot of useful aircraft!

Can you name an indigenous Indian turboprop project? I can google it for some fun research!