China Economy: News & Discussion

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The Chinese are very smart. They need huge infrastructure projects to keep their economy humming along.
But they have overbuilt infra in their own country, and their real estate companies like Evergrande are going belly up.

So they are pushing huge big infra projects to any foreign country, even the ones that cannot afford them. The key is hundreds of thousands of overseas jobs for Chinese workers using Chinese materials, tech, financing and labor. They need to create jobs for their restless young working class. If you cannot create these jobs locally, then create them overseas. Export your labor so that these people don't becomes a restless underemployed section of society that will undermine the stability and power of the CCP.

The partner countries get into debt trap and many of the projects are not fully beneficial to host country, but the China doesn't care. They need these huge overseas projects to keep their economy humming
Frankly I will any day prefer overbuilding than under building in countries like India. What is to be avoided is wasteful building. But infra build in India is still slow. Not enough money is being spent quickly on urban infra projects and logistic/energy. Like I say, all of the RRTS in Delhi NCR should have been under construction. India should have covered itself with expressways all over. That is what China has done. China was done building expressways in a decade.
Another important thing about China is cities like Beijing, Chongqing, Tianjin are directly administered. Delhi, Mumbai, Bengaluru being directly administered would have grown these cities much more. Cities like Shenzhen have municipal autonomy and are delinked from the provincial government to grow at their own pace. Such urban administration reforms were also key to China’s economic success. Unless we take such bold moves, we are not going to be fast in our infrastructure development. Our current reforms are average but not bold.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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I heard the government is considering different plans after the China-Laos railway got finished. To Thai or Cambodia, Thai is more profitable and it would finally reach Singapore.

View attachment 223618

View attachment 223621

To Burma is also a option.

View attachment 223619

And for Vietnam, it met the same problem as India, the Japanese didn't help them finish the thing on time, the plan delayed to 2045, it's obsurd speed by China standard. And heard China has chance to replace them, China helped Vietnam for lots of urban transfer system projects already.

And China may get through the Kunming-Hanoi line at first.

View attachment 223620
Only weak, corrupt countries will sign onto such projects heavily skewed in favor of Beijing. Italy thought it would get a fair deal, then dropped out as it saw that the BRI was a scam that favored only China.
 

Hari Sud

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Frankly I will any day prefer overbuilding than under building in countries like India. What is to be avoided is wasteful building. But infra build in India is still slow. Not enough money is being spent quickly on urban infra projects and logistic/energy. Like I say, all of the RRTS in Delhi NCR should have been under construction. India should have covered itself with expressways all over. That is what China has done. China was done building expressways in a decade.
Another important thing about China is cities like Beijing, Chongqing, Tianjin are directly administered. Delhi, Mumbai, Bengaluru being directly administered would have grown these cities much more. Cities like Shenzhen have municipal autonomy and are delinked from the provincial government to grow at their own pace. Such urban administration reforms were also key to China’s economic success. Unless we take such bold moves, we are not going to be fast in our infrastructure development. Our current reforms are average but not bold.
For India, do not copy china model model for infrastructure building. They overbuilt Highways, bullet trains, dams etc have created a huge mess of loans and bulk of highways have low utilization. The bullet trains are running at 40% passenger load etc. That means do not overbuilt to show off.
 

SexyChineseLady

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For India, do not copy china model model for infrastructure building. They overbuilt Highways, bullet trains, dams etc have created a huge mess of loans and bulk of highways have low utilization. The bullet trains are running at 40% passenger load etc. That means do not overbuilt to show off.
I don't think you need to worry. No country in the developing world would ever "overbuild." Your primary issue is to find funds to build things you need.

If you had the funds to build what you need then you would be a developed country not a developing one.

The separation between developed and developing countries is the ability to fund and build infrastructure.

Worrying about "overbuilding" when you are Global South is a waste of time. It is like a poor vendor who could only afford a pushcart telling people that he would never waste money on two trucks if he ever got wealthy. Graduate from the pushcart first.
 

Azaad

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I don't think you need to worry. No country in the developing world would ever "overbuild." Your primary issue is to find funds to build things you need.

If you had the funds to build what you need then you would be a developed country not a developing one.

The separation between developed and developing countries is the ability to fund and build infrastructure.

Worrying about "overbuilding" when you are Global South is a waste of time. It is like a poor vendor who could only afford a pushcart telling people that he would never waste money on two trucks if he ever got wealthy. Graduate from the pushcart first.
But that's precisely what we want the Chinese to do , build & build . Evergrande & the other construction companies in China are proof of the brilliance of your strategy . Pls do keep investing in building more & more as if there's no tomorrow commercial viability be damned just to keep people gainfully employed & artificially pump up the growth rate . In fact great helmsman 2.0 should double down on the BRI & pump in another trillion just to show the world especially countries like India of the economic resilience of China.
 

ym888

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But that's precisely what we want the Chinese to do , build & build . Evergrande & the other construction companies in China are proof of the brilliance of your strategy . Pls do keep investing in building more & more as if there's no tomorrow commercial viability be damned just to keep people gainfully employed & artificially pump up the growth rate . In fact great helmsman 2.0 should double down on the BRI & pump in another trillion just to show the world especially countries like India of the economic resilience of China.
That's the difference between 3.2T and 19T
 

Azaad

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That's the difference between 3.2T and 19T
More like 12-13T & rapidly dropping. Hence the request to keep building & building more including publishing all those scientific papers in technical journals to file & get useless patents in order to get you talking points & I don't mean out here but in discussion boards based in Paxtan , Bangladesh , Sri Lanka , ASEAN countries , African countries etc who're none the wiser . 😁
 

ym888

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More like 12-13T & rapidly dropping. Hence the request to keep building & building more including publishing all those scientific papers in technical journals to file & get useless patents in order to get you talking points & I don't mean out here but in discussion boards based in Paxtan , Bangladesh , Sri Lanka , ASEAN countries , African countries etc who're none the wiser . 😁
more including publishing all those scientific papers in technical journals to file & useless patents



And all that unnecessary infrastructure



These things that Indians see as useless are the secret of China's success
 

Azaad

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more including publishing all those scientific papers in technical journals to file & useless patents



And all that unnecessary infrastructure



These things that Indians see as useless are the secret of China's success
Artificially inflated growth oriented success UP UNTIL NOW... Never forget to add the last three words as a caveat.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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For India, do not copy china model model for infrastructure building. They overbuilt Highways, bullet trains, dams etc have created a huge mess of loans and bulk of highways have low utilization. The bullet trains are running at 40% passenger load etc. That means do not overbuilt to show off.
They have overbuilt by 30-40% for sure. But it is not about the overbuilding we are talking about. It is about how they raised finances to build it. The issue for us is we are under building things by 30-40%. And this is mostly because we don’t have enough money to fund infrastructure. We spend like $100 billion a year on infrastructure when we should be spending at least $200 billion a year on capex infrastructure spending. And this financing gap of $100 billion is why things are moving at a slow pace.
Let’s take an example, at this stage of Chinese economy they were building 10-15 expressways of Delhi-Mumbai expressway scale to have a grid of expressways north to south, east to west. We are building one or two. This applies to a lot of things - energy, ports, railways, urban development etc. $100 billion a year in infra spend is simply too low for a country the size of India. The national infrastructure pipeline estimates $200 billion per year build. Yet we are only able to do $100 billion per year. That is a big shortfall.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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more including publishing all those scientific papers in technical journals to file & useless patents



And all that unnecessary infrastructure



These things that Indians see as useless are the secret of China's success
Who said China is a success with 50% of people earning less than $100 a month and massively failing demographics? You mean it is the CCP bosses ,who have fled with billions overseas, success?
You do know that many Chinese are willing to work in Africa now, as apparently pay and lifestyle is better there?
 

rockdog

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I don't think you need to worry. No country in the developing world would ever "overbuild." Your primary issue is to find funds to build things you need.

If you had the funds to build what you need then you would be a developed country not a developing one.

The separation between developed and developing countries is the ability to fund and build infrastructure.

Worrying about "overbuilding" when you are Global South is a waste of time. It is like a poor vendor who could only afford a pushcart telling people that he would never waste money on two trucks if he ever got wealthy. Graduate from the pushcart first.

 

SexyChineseLady

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But that's precisely what we want the Chinese to do , build & build . Evergrande & the other construction companies in China are proof of the brilliance of your strategy . Pls do keep investing in building more & more as if there's no tomorrow commercial viability be damned just to keep people gainfully employed & artificially pump up the growth rate . In fact great helmsman 2.0 should double down on the BRI & pump in another trillion just to show the world especially countries like India of the economic resilience of China.
Very strange way of thinking! How can you build unviable infrastructure if you have no money in the first place? Where would that trillion come from?

Why all this magical thinking? China has the money to build many things. You people are jealous so you call them "unviable."

This is like a homeless man who lives in cardbox saying the wealthy man who has three homes is just showing off! The rich might be showing off and wasteful but he still has three homes and you live in a cardboard box!

If China is wasteful, it is because it has an over abundance of funds. All developing countries are developing because they do not have a strong enough economy to fund development ;)
 

SexyChineseLady

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This is what China has built -- along with the so-called ghost cities -- just in the past decade:

1) A brand new EV industry:
IMG_0898.jpeg


2) A full spectrum semiconductor supply chain:
IMG_0899.png


3) A full fledged airliner and aircraft engine industry:
IMG_0900.jpeg


4) New high value shipbuilding sectors in VLGCs and cruiseliners:
IMG_0901.jpeg



It takes money to make money ;)
 

ym888

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This is what China has built -- along with the so-called ghost cities -- just in the past decade:

1) A brand new EV industry:
View attachment 223750

2) A full spectrum semiconductor supply chain:
View attachment 223751

3) A full fledged airliner and aircraft engine industry:
View attachment 223752

4) New high value shipbuilding sectors in VLGCs and cruiseliners:
View attachment 223753


It takes money to make money ;)
These are useless things

But I like it.
 

ym888

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Who said China is a success with 50% of people earning less than $100 a month and massively failing demographics? You mean it is the CCP bosses ,who have fled with billions overseas, success?
You do know that many Chinese are willing to work in Africa now, as apparently pay and lifestyle is better there?
Compared to its neighboring country of 1.4 billion people



China is very successful
 

ym888

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China exports first smart new-energy light rail trains to Argentina


Two smart new-energy light rail trains manufactured by CRRC Tangshan Co., Ltd. in Tongyang Terminal of the Tongzhou Bay, Nantong City of east China's Jiangsu Province, September 23, 2023. /CMG


Two smart new-energy light rail trains manufactured by CRRC Tangshan Co., Ltd. in Tongyang Terminal of the Tongzhou Bay, Nantong City of east China's Jiangsu Province, September 23, 2023. /CMG
Two smart new-energy light rail trains manufactured by a Chinese company departed from east China's Jiangsu Province for Jujuy Province in Argentina on Saturday,
The CRRC Tangshan Co., Ltd., a major Chinese high-speed train manufacturer, produced the first new-energy light rail train for Argentina, which is also the first export project for such trains from China.
Powered by lithium iron phosphate batteries, the train which departed from Tongyang Terminal in the Tongzhou Bay, Nantong City of east China's Jiangsu Province, will be used by the transport system of Terminal Zárate in the Jujuy Province of Argentina, China Media Group (CMG) reported.
The green and intelligent train can expand a variety of power modes and flexible grouping, with wide applications in low-volume urban commuting, tourism transportation and other fields.
Being the first lithium-powered new-energy rail transit product in Argentina, the device is also the key link for Jujuy Province's photovoltaic power generation and lithium industry to move forward high-end applications.
Moreover, it can provide customized products for the surging demands of green tourism and smart transportation.
Two smart new-energy light rail trains manufactured by CRRC Tangshan Co., Ltd. in Tongyang Terminal of the Tongzhou Bay, Nantong City of east China's Jiangsu Province, September 23, 2023. /CMG


Two smart new-energy light rail trains manufactured by CRRC Tangshan Co., Ltd. in Tongyang Terminal of the Tongzhou Bay, Nantong City of east China's Jiangsu Province, September 23, 2023. /CMG
The six-axle articulated train runs with a maximum speed of 60 km per hour with a flexible passenger capacity ranging from 72 to 388. With cabs at both ends, it allows two-way driving, said Luo Chao, technical manager of the project with the CRRC Tangshan.
The exterior line and color design of the train is based on Quebrada de Humahuaca, a World Heritage site in Argentina, and the viewing window design provides great convenience for sightseeing tourists traveling by train.
 

ym888

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5G booster automotive connected mobility and patent licensing
By Li Jiaying | chinadaily.com.cn | Updated: 2023-09-22 14:04






5G chips on display during an expo in Shanghai. [Photo provided to China Daily]
Automotive connected mobility in the era of 5G is expected to flourish through better utilization of cutting-edge communication patents and deeper cooperation with their holders, said industry experts.
5G connectivity generally aids in improving traffic efficiency and safety, while also providing more intelligent and personalized traffic services and piloting options, said Ding Haiyu, a researcher at the China Mobile Research Institute.
With the rapid development of autonomous driving and intelligent connectivity technologies, carmakers are actively developing related products and establishing corresponding technological standards, which usually require access to a large number of standard essential patents. Therefore, these companies need to consider and deal with such issues in advance when conducting their businesses, said Wang Junlei, direct of intellectual property at the China Automotive Technology and Research Center.
Innovation vitality serves as the key to pushing forward the country's patent licensing development. According to a report of the Intellectual Property Development & Research Center — China National Intellectual Property Administration's research wing, more than 210,000 5G standard essential patents are declared worldwide by June 2022, involving nearly 47,000 patent families, more than 18,000 of which are processed by China, accounting for nearly 40 percent of the total.
"From 2G to 5G, the proportion of Chinese patent holders out of the global total has kept going up, where policy support from the Chinese government and the increased overall attention to the industry have both played significant roles," said Kasim Alfalahi, founder and CEO of Avanci, an independent provider of patent licensing solutions, during his business trip to China this month.
"I've also noticed the thriving development of China's innovation vitality and that the protection of IP rights across the nation has been attached with more and more importance since I first came here 25 years ago," he added.
Despite R&D capability, China has also been attached with especially significant importance in the global automotive market, due to the enormous business potential provided by its naturally considerable volume of both manufacturing and sales.
In 2022, the country ranked first across the world in terms of the sales of new energy vehicles for an eighth straight year, with a sales volume of 6.887 million units, data from the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers showed.
Avanci announced the launch of its 5G connected vehicle program last month, which aims to facilitate the 5G technology licensing progress for automobile connectivity. It includes 61 participating licensors so far, and Chinese tech giant Huawei is included in its list of licensors, demonstrating the increasing interest of Chinese players in advancing the management of SEPs and the company's willingness to deepen cooperation with Chinese licensors as well as carmakers.
 

MiG-29SMT

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BRUSSELS (Reuters) -Europe's trade chief will push Beijing for fewer restrictions on European businesses on a four-day visit to China, when he can expect tough conversations over a planned EU investigation into electric car imports.

Trade Commissioner Valdis Dombrovskis will take part in a joint economic and trade dialogue, meet Chinese officials and European companies active in China and deliver two speeches during his Sept. 23-26 trip to Shanghai and Beijing.

For the European Union, the visit is designed to renew dialogue with China after its COVID-19 closure and as EU wariness grows over Beijing's closer ties with Moscow following Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

Dombrovskis will arrive just over a week after the EU executive said it would investigate whether to impose punitive tariffs to protect European producers against cheaper Chinese electric vehicle imports.


The enquiry may result in a frostier reception in China, but sources with knowledge of the trip say it could usefully lead to a more focused discussion on "trade irritants".

The EU blames its 400 billion euro ($426.32 billion) trade deficit partly on Chinese restrictions on European companies and says the EU market is largely open.

A "thousand" barriers to market access have propelled the trade deficit to its "highest in the history of mankind", EU Ambassador to China Jorge Toledo lamented at a forum in Beijing on Thursday.

EU's trade deficit with China widened to $276.6 billion in 2022 from $208.4 billion a year earlier, Chinese customs data show.

The economic and trade dialogue on Monday between Dombrovskis and Chinese Vice Premier He Lifeng, the 10th such discussion since 2008, will be a "litmus test" for two sides, according to Chinese nationalist tabloid Global Times.

'DE-RISK'

The European Union Chamber of Commerce in China said in a report on Wednesday that Chinese authorities were sending contradictory messages to foreign businesses. For many, a swift economic rebound expected after the reopening of China's borders in January failed to materialise.

"Although official announcements aimed at improving the business environment have been released, so has a slew of national security-focused legislation, which has deepened uncertainty and raised compliance risks," the report said.

This includes an anti-espionage law that bans the transfer of information related to national security and interests that it does not specify. It could result in punishments for foreign companies engaged in regular business.

The EU is also expected to be asked during the visit to clarify what it means by "de-risk" in the context of China.

EU officials say the bloc is seeking to curb its reliance on the world's second-largest economy, particularly for materials and products needed for its green transition, but wishes to retain trade ties.

Large European industries have started revising their supply chains to see where they have excessive dependency on China, as they have been "shocked" by Chinese restrictions on exports of strategic metals germanium and gallium, Toledo said.

China placed export curbs on eight gallium and six germanium products from August in its latest salvo of an escalating war between Beijing and Washington over access to materials used in making high-tech microchips.

Germany is also planning to force telecoms operators to slash the use of equipment from Huawei and ZTE in their 5G networks, prompting a warning from China that it would not "stand idly by" should Berlin proceed with the curb.

($1 = 0.9383 euros)

 

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