China Economy: News & Discussion

KurtisBrian

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Dude, you missed my point.
Japan, Korea and Taiwan had a growing export market even if their domestic population was shrinking.
World is expecting China and India to drive growth so in that aspect it would be good be realistic.
plus Jpn, SK and Taiwan were occupied by or militarily dependent upon the USA.
They are part of an economic and military alliance. Chinese, obviously, are not. They are rivals. No reason to lift up rivals to be anything other than a new boogie man.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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@Varzone

This CCP's little pink maggot only has googling skills but zero knowledge.

I guess this CCP bot has put me in ignored list, so point em out that income level is calculated on Nominal not PPP. Otherwise even India is an upper middle income economy thanks to PPP factor.
Which Mod is in charge of this thread? Can you tag them to issue a permanent ban on this SCL fool for wasting everyone’s time?

@ezsasa possible to issue a temporary ban to SCL for constant insane propaganda and information warfare? Their posts clearly prove that they are hell bent on using false, fudged data for information warfare. After being warned several times, they still do so. This person is crowding out the real Chinese from sharing their perspectives.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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I just said we can't generate as many jobs as we have graduates basically. I didn't even look at the numbers what the report has
That is because of the poor quality education of these graduates. You will get a good job if you have skills. The world is massively short of labor. You need to have trade skills. If you just try to become yet another software engineer or an MBA or want a government or managerial job you are not going to easily get a job. India’s education system is broken. The NEP is designed to fix this.
‘You can easily start a car repair franchise in India today and hire labor, certify them and make big bucks. Entrepreneurship is the way to go in India. Forget jobs as the only path.
 

Varzone

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That is because of the poor quality education of these graduates. You will get a good job if you have skills. The world is massively short of labor. You need to have trade skills. If you just try to become yet another software engineer or an MBA or want a government or managerial job you are not going to easily get a job. India’s education system is broken. The NEP is designed to fix this.
‘You can easily start a car repair franchise in India today and hire labor, certify them and make big bucks. Entrepreneurship is the way to go in India. Forget jobs as the only path.
This is very true.
Quality of mass graduates is dog shit.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Factually incorrect.
Why are you ignorant of money multiplier effect.
There is no or very little multiplier effect in low wages production. 90% of Chinese exports are low value and hence low wages. Lack of wages = 63 million empty apartments. So, no multiplier effect of advancing a poor peasants net worth.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The Chinese Economy is Sixty Percent Smaller Than We Thought

China’s Economy is 60% smaller than we thought. At least, that is the implication, if we are to believe the research presented in this research paper by Professor Luis Martinez from the University of Chicago.

This would mean that instead of soon becoming the largest economy in the world, China’s economy is only about a third of the size of the mighty U.S. economy. It also means that predictions, such as those made by Billionaire Investor Ray Dalio, that China is soon to overtake the U.S. as the world’s next superpower, are way overblown. Finally, having much lower GDP also means that China’s debt levels are actually much higher, relative to the size of its economy, meaning that its debt-fueled property bubble is much more dangerous than we thought.

But, this all depends on the answer to one question. Can you trust this research paper more than China’s official GDP figures? Well, for you to make up your mind about that, I’ll first tell you why China’s official GDP figures are so problematic. Then, I’ll show you the evidence that this paper presents, and how I used it to calculate China’s real GDP number. After that, I’ll discuss both the strengths and weaknesses of the evidence against China’s official statistics plus what this greatly reduced GDP figure would mean for the global economy.

The Problem with China’s GDP statistics
Okay, so China’s official GDP figures, measuring the total spending in the economy, have actually been very controversial for a long time.

I mean, according to leaked documents, even China’s vice president admitted that


You see, to calculate GDP, governments all around the world typically collect data on transactions in all sectors of the economy. But, the problem is that GDP growth is often seen as a measurement of success.

So, to stay in power, politicians need higher GDP numbers. And, Sure, they could get them by governing well, allowing the economy to grow. But, that is really hard work. It would be much easier to just get higher GDP numbers by just adjusting the numbers upwards a little bit every year.

However, the problem for politicians in democratic countries is that the statistical agencies responsible for recording GDP operate independently. For example, Donald Trump could not just walk into the U.S. [Bureau of Economic Analysis](https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product#:~:text=Real%20gross%20domestic%20product%20(GDP,second%E2%80%9D%20estimate%20released%20in%20August.) and demand higher GDP growth numbers. And, even if he managed to pressure the statisticians there to fudge the numbers, this would likely find its way to the free press, making this quite an unattractive option for politicians in democratic countries.

But, what if you are a dictator that controls both the statistical office and the press. Now suddenly, it becomes quite attractive to adjust the numbers upwards, just a little bit every year.

Therefore, more authoritarian countries are likely to overstate GDP growth more.

At least, that is the main claim of this paper from professor Luis Martinez.

And, as a scientist, he backs up that claim with data, in this case from satellites.

The Evidence
Because, sure, rulers that control the statisticians and the press can easily manipulate GDP statistics. But, they cannot fake real economic activity. And, in our modern economies, real economic activity can be seen from space. Especially, when night sets and the lights go on.

So, to find out if authoritarians manipulate GDP statistics more, Martinez looked at 184 countries between 1992 to 2008 and compared the growth of lights at night in each country to the growth of GDP that each country reported.

What he found is that, as expected, when night-lights grew, all countries typically also reported that GDP grew. However, when making a distinction between autocratic and democratic countries, a clear pattern emerged. Autocratic countries typically reported a whopping 35% higher GDP growth numbers compared to night-time lights growth.

And for China specifically, Martinez states that, based on his analysis, China’s GDP growth between 1992 and 2008 was likely 4.9% per year, rather than its average reported growth of 6.3%.

But, frustratingly to us here at Money & Macro, Martinez didn’t calculate what that means for China’s GDP today. So, we decided to do that ourselves.

Calculating China’s GDP Today
Based how much authoritarian countries overstate GDP growth compared to night-light growth, Martinez produces what he calls a GDP deflator.

This GDP deflator is basically a number by which to reduce official GDP numbers each year based on how authoritarian a country is.

Using his deflator, we extended Martinez’s analysis to 2021.

And, while between 1992 and 2021, China reported sky high GDP growth between 14 and 8 percent. Martinez analysis suggests that China actually only grew between six and two percent.

Importantly, this means that instead of surpassing the USA as the largest economy in the world, China’s is still quite far away from it.

Now, don’t get me wrong, these are still really impressive growth numbers. On average, it was still quite a bit higher than the 4.1% that Trump was so proud of. And this growth was still enough for China’s economy to surpass that of Japan and become the second biggest economy in the world.

But, at this point you might say, Joeri, this paper, and your calculations, they look a bit rough around the edges. Why should I trust them over the official statistics provided by the Chinese government?

And yeah, there is some truth to that, in the sense that, this is a very rough calculation. Martinez himself even calls it a back-of-the-envelope calculation. And so, yeah, you should take these adjusted number with a big grain of salt. But, that being said, I do actually think that the adjusted numbers are closer to the truth than the official numbers for three reasons.

Pros, Cons & Implications
First, it’s important to mention that this paper has been critically assessed by dozens of economists. It has been presented at seminars at the University of Chicago and Illinois as well as at policy institutions such as the central bank of Chile and the World Bank. What’s more, it has been peer-reviewed and published by the prestigious Journal of Political Economy.

Second, Martinez has done a lot of checks to make sure that the finding that authoritarians consistently have higher GDP growth than night-light growth cannot be explained by some other factor. For example, you could imagine that geography has something to do with this relationship. Or perhaps most authoritarian countries were just less-developed economically in 1992 which changes their relation with night-time lights. Or perhaps, the structure of authoritarian economies is just different because their people move to cities less. Or, it could also be that they just rely on industries that produce fewer lights. Well, Martinez checked all of this and more, and it didn’t affect his main result. So, his analysis that authoritarians overstate GDP holds.

Now, at this point you might say, Joeri, okay okay. But, Martinez’s calculation of GDP was about the average manipulation of authoritarian regimes. It is not applicable to China. And, yeah, that could be true. So, I looked into it.

I started by examining why China’s own vice president would ever admit that he didn’t trust his own GDP numbers. And there it turns out that China is quite unique in that the central government used to set GDP growth targets for provincial governors.

And, if any of you have worked in a company with a growth target, you probably know that while they can be effective, they typically also produce a unwanted side effects. For example, economic research shows that sales targets in companies lead to bad sales, such as those sold at unsustainable discounts, as well as manipulated sales numbers. So it’s not surprising that, research has already shown that China’s GDP growth targets led to wasteful investment projects, and, more importantly for us, manipulated GDP numbers.

Similarly to Martinez’s study, another economist uncovered that in the years that Chinese provincial governors needed to be selected, there were huge difference between reported GDP figures for that province, and data that couldn’t be manipulated such as electricity consumption.

Even economic researchers from within China reported that provincial governors that hit their GDP growth targets typically got promoted, while those that didn’t got … the boot.

Finally, when I, myself, looked into the night light data of a paper published in Nature and compared that to World bank GDP data, I found that indeed China reported much higher GDP growth, compared to night-light growth than for example its more democratic rapidly growing and large neighbor India.

So yeah, there is a lot of evidence that China is manipulating its GDP data just as much, if not more than other autocratic countries.

And, that is why, with the caveat that this is an extremely rough calculation, it is my opinion, that China’s GDP is likely 40% of its official figure. Now, this still makes China’s economy the second largest in the world. But, it is only at 30 to 45 percent of the US’s economy, depending on how you measure it.

In any case, the Chinese economy is still very far from being number one, especially now that its economy is slowing down due to a property crisis. And, this means that China’s current economic problems could be much worse than we thought because debt to GDP is much higher, because GDP is much lower. What’s more, it has huge geopolitical implications in that China would be far less threatening to the USA than we thought.

The Chinese Economy is Sixty Percent Smaller Than We Thought (moneymacro.rocks)
Very possible as we just don’t see living standards in China even at Mexican levels for the average Chinese. I consider all Chinese data as fraud and apply a 30% discount on all numbers coming out of China. They also use FDI double counting numbers between HK and China. The greed of US billionaire investment bankers and hedge fund managers is why China’s bull shit of a made up Ponzi scheme GDP is not being exposed further. These idiots were responsible for the 2008 US crash with fake loan performance numbers. Goldman Sachs is the #1 culprit - capable of manipulating an entire country’s numbers to make money for themselves. In the US, Goldman Sachs has been reined in. But they continue to cause havoc in places like China by working with corrupt CCP politicians to do all sorts of economic fakery.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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keep the conversation civil.
Need a temporary ban on @SexyChineseLady for cluttering up the thread with fake posts and pointless arguments. Also, it is utter disrespect to the hundreds of thousands of wuhan virus victims in China to let wumaos like @SexyChineseLady to whitewash the truth. This is the same bot that was insanely justifying the brutal lockdown as a success for the CCP and now promotes that the completely brutal, thoughtless reopening of the economy is also a CCP success. What else do you need to prove that this wumao is someone that needs to be trashed? I hope you realize that information warfare is real warfare.
 

SexyChineseLady

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keep the conversation civil.
I am ignoring more than half the posts in this thread (which is about China's economy!) because there are constant insults and attacks on race, culture and gender. It feels like organized mob attacks to be perfectly honest.

The insults are one way from certain Indian posters attacking everything and anything remotely positive about China and Chinese people in Chinese related threads.

I have never posted in threads outside the China section because I am a guest and want to be respectful. And yet I get pilloried racially and culturally (among other insults) for carefully posting only on Chinese threads!
 

srevster

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I am ignoring more than half the posts in this thread (which is about China's economy!) because there are constant insults and attacks on race, culture and gender. It feels like organized mob attacks to be perfectly honest.

The insults are one way from certain Indian posters attacking everything and anything remotely positive about China and Chinese people in Chinese related threads.

I have never posted in threads outside the China section because I am a guest and want to be respectful. And yet I get pilloried racially and culturally (among other insults) for carefully posting only on Chinese threads!
Don’t engage with folks that attack you. The problem most people have with you is that they don’t trust you. Maybe you can share more about yourself, where your family comes from and what values you hold dear both culturally and family wise. Maybe share more individual insights and less macro level statements…

share more things that make you seem genuine instead of the artificially hyped up posts. You must have frustration, there are things China needs to improve and do better on. Is there a disconnect between China’s accomplishments as a nation and individuals suffering at the ground level. Perhaps show more genuine interactions and more vulnerability to build trust. Open democracies often self criticize and the forum members never see you do that. That’s why they don’t like your posts and the personal attacks.

lastly show More personality and sound less like a robot.
 
Last edited:

SexyChineseLady

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Don’t engage with folks that attack you. The problem most people have with you is that they don’t trust you. Maybe you can share more about yourself, where your family comes from and what values you hold dear both culturally and family wise. Maybe share more individual insights and less macro level statements…

share more things that make you seem genuine instead of the artificially hyped up posts. You must have frustration, there are things China needs to improve and do better on. Is there a disconnect between China’s accomplishments as a nation and individuals suffering at the ground level. Perhaps show more genuine interactions and more vulnerability to build trust. Open democracies often self criticize and the forum members never see you do that. That’s why they don’t like your posts and the personal attacks.

lastly show More personality and sound less like a robot.
I think people know more about me than any of the other posters simply by following the threads here! I think they don't like my enthusiasm. But I'll give it a go.

I like boy bands, street fashion, mermaids, swimwear, beaches and movies. I have family in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. We're Pan Blues (nationalists) as an extended family and were rabidly anti-communist in the past (and still so for certain family members.)

Why have grandpa, uncles, aunts and the rest changed in the past several decades? China and the Chinese (across all borders) became wealthy together and there was no war. Hongkies and Taiwanese are in China by the millions helping to develop it. We love the fact that we are all Chinese and growing wealthier by the day.

Sure, there are things we like to change. If China democratic tomorrow, I'd love it! But I know enough from history that fast changes like that usually end up in bloody civil war. So far better to have change like China is having now which isn't even slow. Who'd thought China would have so many tourists and overseas students when Mao was around? Who thought that Chinese would spend more money than Americans traveling Europe even during Deng's time?

If China were like North Korea, I would advocate for revolution tomorrow. But not with a country that is growing and developing so fast. You said there is a disconnect between "China’s accomplishments as a nation and individuals suffering at the ground level" but the problem is people in China are pretty happy especially compared to what they went through in the past and there is truly a lot of enthusiasm going forward. If not, there would be a lot more civil disruption in China.

Look at the Zero Covid demonstrations. The Commies responded. You (and many of the CCP old timers that supported Zero Covid) might look at the change as a negative but for the young people, this is an "opening" almost like Deng's.

The disconnect is not between the commies and its people and it is between the commies and the outside world.
 

Varzone

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There is no or very little multiplier effect in low wages production. 90% of Chinese exports are low value and hence low wages. Lack of wages = 63 million empty apartments. So, no multiplier effect of advancing a poor peasants net worth.
Well, it's a vague statement that there is little multiplier effect. For eg. You only took into consideration the wages.
What about the factory construction, utilities, ancillary expenses, taxes, local suppliers, transportation and then living standard of a Chinese worker and wherever he spends like children's education, food, clothing, apparel, medicine etc.
Then the surroundings of the factory where employment is generated will also get more business activity in most cases.
 

Varzone

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I think people know more about me than any of the other posters simply by following the threads here! I think they don't like my enthusiasm. But I'll give it a go.

I like boy bands, street fashion, mermaids, swimwear, beaches and movies. I have family in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. We're Pan Blues (nationalists) as an extended family and were rabidly anti-communist in the past (and still so for certain family members.)

Why have grandpa, uncles, aunts and the rest changed in the past several decades? China and the Chinese (across all borders) became wealthy together and there was no war. Hongkies and Taiwanese are in China by the millions helping to develop it. We love the fact that we are all Chinese and growing wealthier by the day.

Sure, there are things we like to change. If China democratic tomorrow, I'd love it! But I know enough from history that fast changes like that usually end up in bloody civil war. So far better to have change like China is having now which isn't even slow. Who'd thought China would have so many tourists and overseas students when Mao was around? Who thought that Chinese would spend more money than Americans traveling Europe even during Deng's time?

If China were like North Korea, I would advocate for revolution tomorrow. But not with a country that is growing and developing so fast. You said there is a disconnect between "China’s accomplishments as a nation and individuals suffering at the ground level" but the problem is people in China are pretty happy especially compared to what they went through in the past and there is truly a lot of enthusiasm going forward. If not, there would be a lot more civil disruption in China.

Look at the Zero Covid demonstrations. The Commies responded. You (and many of the CCP old timers that supported Zero Covid) might look at the change as a negative but for the young people, this is an "opening" almost like Deng's.

The disconnect is not between the commies and its people and it is between the commies and the outside world.
Chinese boy bands? First time I'm hearing of them
 

SexyChineseLady

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Chinese boy bands? First time I'm hearing of them
Check out the Chinese culture megathreads. Many of the usual suspects spent time insulting them as girly (which puts them on the same side as the CCP.)


I also post Chinese swimwear contests which seem to get less insults:
 

srevster

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I think people know more about me than any of the other posters simply by following the threads here! I think they don't like my enthusiasm. But I'll give it a go.

I like boy bands, street fashion, mermaids, swimwear, beaches and movies. I have family in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. We're Pan Blues (nationalists) as an extended family and were rabidly anti-communist in the past (and still so for certain family members.)

Why have grandpa, uncles, aunts and the rest changed in the past several decades? China and the Chinese (across all borders) became wealthy together and there was no war. Hongkies and Taiwanese are in China by the millions helping to develop it. We love the fact that we are all Chinese and growing wealthier by the day.

Sure, there are things we like to change. If China democratic tomorrow, I'd love it! But I know enough from history that fast changes like that usually end up in bloody civil war. So far better to have change like China is having now which isn't even slow. Who'd thought China would have so many tourists and overseas students when Mao was around? Who thought that Chinese would spend more money than Americans traveling Europe even during Deng's time?

If China were like North Korea, I would advocate for revolution tomorrow. But not with a country that is growing and developing so fast. You said there is a disconnect between "China’s accomplishments as a nation and individuals suffering at the ground level" but the problem is people in China are pretty happy especially compared to what they went through in the past and there is truly a lot of enthusiasm going forward. If not, there would be a lot more civil disruption in China.

Look at the Zero Covid demonstrations. The Commies responded. You (and many of the CCP old timers that supported Zero Covid) might look at the change as a negative but for the young people, this is an "opening" almost like Deng's.

The disconnect is not between the commies and its people and it is between the commies and the outside world.
Look if your posts are more emphatic and down to earth with a sense of realism about your sense of self and an impartial perspective of China, I think 99% of the posters here would appreciate you.

there are a couple bad apples, but I always enjoy building interpersonal relations.

now you didn’t tell us if you are a boy or a girl and what your age is and where you currently reside
 

srevster

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I think people know more about me than any of the other posters simply by following the threads here! I think they don't like my enthusiasm. But I'll give it a go.

I like boy bands, street fashion, mermaids, swimwear, beaches and movies. I have family in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. We're Pan Blues (nationalists) as an extended family and were rabidly anti-communist in the past (and still so for certain family members.)

Why have grandpa, uncles, aunts and the rest changed in the past several decades? China and the Chinese (across all borders) became wealthy together and there was no war. Hongkies and Taiwanese are in China by the millions helping to develop it. We love the fact that we are all Chinese and growing wealthier by the day.

Sure, there are things we like to change. If China democratic tomorrow, I'd love it! But I know enough from history that fast changes like that usually end up in bloody civil war. So far better to have change like China is having now which isn't even slow. Who'd thought China would have so many tourists and overseas students when Mao was around? Who thought that Chinese would spend more money than Americans traveling Europe even during Deng's time?

If China were like North Korea, I would advocate for revolution tomorrow. But not with a country that is growing and developing so fast. You said there is a disconnect between "China’s accomplishments as a nation and individuals suffering at the ground level" but the problem is people in China are pretty happy especially compared to what they went through in the past and there is truly a lot of enthusiasm going forward. If not, there would be a lot more civil disruption in China.

Look at the Zero Covid demonstrations. The Commies responded. You (and many of the CCP old timers that supported Zero Covid) might look at the change as a negative but for the young people, this is an "opening" almost like Deng's.

The disconnect is not between the commies and its people and it is between the commies and the outside world.
Also no where did you mention you like defense, india or wanting to hang out on Indian forums. So why are you here? What motivates you to post here?
 

SexyChineseLady

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Also no where did you mention you like defense, india or wanting to hang out on Indian forums. So why are you here? What motivates you to post here?
I said many times I wouldn't be here if there were no China section :D

I found this place just searching for China related discussions not for Indian ones. I don't think I've posted in any thread outside this China section.

I spend FAR more time in Chinese forums by a wide margin. The military stuff is secondary to the technology, cultural and economy stuff but needless to say mil equipment is intertwined heavily with tech and economics along with cultural expression (see toys and cartoons thread!) And this is a mil forum so I post accordingly. I readily admit I know nothing about actual military things like tactics, formations or units. I like the tech -- planes, ships, engines.
 

KurtisBrian

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A person could write up any cover story he wanted. But why care who SexyChineselady is? Whoever he/she is he does not control China.

His/her posts are mostly information that stirs debate, comments, more debate, dispute and thought.

For me IDF is more interesting/fun when SexyChineselady posts. Kind of like Varzone's, Dark Age thread, threads insulting Pakistan or the India-China border conflict. Those threads are all full of interesting comments, thoughts, plans, ideas, disputes ......
 

SexyChineseLady

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A person could write up any cover story he wanted. But why care who SexyChineselady is? Whoever he/she is he does not control China.

His/her posts are mostly information that stirs debate, comments, more debate, dispute and thought.

For me IDF is more interesting/fun when SexyChineselady posts. Kind of like Varzone's, Dark Age thread, threads insulting Pakistan or the India-China border conflict. Those threads are all full of interesting comments, thoughts, plans, ideas, disputes ......
I didn't know there were such a thread and am glad it is not in this section :D

If the Chinese economy thread gets this kind of racial vitriol then I can't imagine that one!
 

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