China Economy: News & Discussion

SexyChineseLady

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Wit…HSR investments led to engine development? Lol. That is just insane logic. I don’t think the US or USSR had HSR as the bassis for aircraft engine development. Please desist from making such childish statements.
Oh stop it. I wrote:

On promoting science and technology: the massive HSR you dismissed was a huge impetus for China's science and tech growth.

Why try such a cheap trick to win some imaginary debate point that no one said? lol

If you want a serious discussion on how a government encourage the expansion of science and technology then look at China's national projects like HSR and their effects on pushing the scientific and technological base. HSR led directly to China's leading position in civil engineering and high technology in everything from maglev to green energy:


 

SexyChineseLady

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Yeah we have to use future plans as a yardstick. India is behind CCPia by at least 10 years in the economic growth cycle. Until India reaches $5-6 trillion, massive investments to scale next gen technologies are not possible. India too will have massive tech companies when the economy doubles and triples.
When China has at least 13 current turbofan projects compared to India's one then that gap is not only WAY larger than 10 years but it is also widening at light speed.

WS-10 and Kaveri started at the same time some 30 years ago ;)

The difference is WS-10 has been in mass production for years now and powering huge numbers of frontline aircraft coming off China assembly lines with better and better models each year while the Kaveri has not even flown.

By the time Kaveri actually powers a testbed, China's next generation of military engines in the WS-15 and WS-19 will be in mass production. One advanced heavy engine and one advanced medium engine out of many in China compared to India's one medium project that began 30 years ago.

The high bypass engines for transports and airliners are not even in India's field of imagination. The WS-20 is already in production and the CJ1000, CJ2000 and CJ500 are coming.

This expanding lead is replicated in EVs, supercomputers, silicon chips, shipbuilding, the space industry, nuclear and practically every other high technology field.
 
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jai jaganath

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When China has at least 13 current turbofan projects compared to India's one then that gap is not only WAY larger than 10 years but it is also widening at light speed.

WS-10 and Kaveri started at the same time some 30 years ago ;)

The difference is WS-10 has been in mass production for years now and powering huge numbers of frontline aircraft coming off China assembly lines with better and better models each year while the Kaveri has not even flown.

By the time Kaveri actually powers a testbed, China's next generation of military engines in the WS-15 and WS-19 will be in mass production. One advanced heavy engine and one advanced medium engine out of many in China compared to India's one medium project that began 30 years ago.

The high bypass engines for transports and airliners are not even in India's field of imagination. The WS-20 is already in production and the CJ1000, CJ2000 and CJ500 are coming.

This expanding lead is replicated in EVs, supercomputers, silicon chips, shipbuilding, the space industry, nuclear and practically every other high technology field.
Kaveri is dead for aircrafts
It's alive for ucav as its in Russia undergoing flight tests
No matter what how many defense journals say it's fact Kaveri is dead for fighters
 

SexyChineseLady

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Kaveri is dead for aircrafts
It's alive for ucav as its in Russia undergoing flight tests
No matter what how many defense journals say it's fact Kaveri is dead for fighters

That's horrible. Doesn't make sense to give up on a turbofan you already put three decades into when you don't have anything else. Because after reading up on the Indian 110 kN engine project, it sounds to me like it is only aspirational for now because you haven't decided between RR (which I thought was picked) or SaFran as a partner. Engines take a long time to develop and you need to have started yesterday to have it ready for the Indian stealth plane which I heard had cut metal.

I'm sorry but India's gap with China in turbofans when the Kaveri began 30 years was much closer (China had only the WS-9 flying for the JH-7 back then.) That gap had widen into a canyon since.

With drones, India be better off designing and building new engines not just turbofans than using a medium sized fighter engine like Kaveri. It could help kickstart your engine industry.

The TB001 UCAV that the Chinese firm Tengden sold a production line to Saudi Arabia flies on three Chinese piston engines! Saudi Arabia bought other Chinese drones with turboprops (Wing Loong series.) In China, jet powered drones use mainly cheaper turbojets though there are smaller specially made drone turbofans.
 
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SexyChineseLady

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Did you know? ;)

There are many companies like Wechai Power in China. They dominate sectors globally that the average person might not know about but people in industry would know.

When you build lots and lots of stuff, you will get good at it :D


Weichai Power: Dominating the diesel power engine market
STOCKS
On Nov 9, 2022

Embedded within China’s economic miracle is the arguably equally astonishing story of Weichai Power – an organization that has risen from conducting maintenance on steam boats in the 1940’s, to powering industry across the world today.

While in more recent times we’ve seen the proliferation of globally recognised technology and internet giants dominate discussion about China’s modern economy, Weichai Power’s evolution to its present-day market dominance, innovation and growth is ostensibly synchronous with the evolution of China’s economy over the past seven decades.

What does Weichai Power do?

Weichai Power is China’s largest manufacturer of commercial vehicle engines. Its enormous diesel engine and powertrain manufacturing and sales operation continues to expand today. However, it has also diversified into the manufacturing and sales of trucks, various heavy-duty auto components, forklifts, warehouse machinery, new energy powertrain systems and supply chain solutions.
 

rockdog

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Tesla Giga Shanghai sets new record; builds 100k EV's in China, November

 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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When China has at least 13 current turbofan projects compared to India's one then that gap is not only WAY larger than 10 years but it is also widening at light speed.

WS-10 and Kaveri started at the same time some 30 years ago ;)

The difference is WS-10 has been in mass production for years now and powering huge numbers of frontline aircraft coming off China assembly lines with better and better models each year while the Kaveri has not even flown.

By the time Kaveri actually powers a testbed, China's next generation of military engines in the WS-15 and WS-19 will be in mass production. One advanced heavy engine and one advanced medium engine out of many in China compared to India's one medium project that began 30 years ago.

The high bypass engines for transports and airliners are not even in India's field of imagination. The WS-20 is already in production and the CJ1000, CJ2000 and CJ500 are coming.

This expanding lead is replicated in EVs, supercomputers, silicon chips, shipbuilding, the space industry, nuclear and practically every other high technology field.
That’s not how manufacturing works. Only the first core technology takes time. After that the variants mushroom. Just listing the number of engines with each a slightly variant for different needs is something that will be achieved quickly. What India needs to do is to establish the core technology ecosystem.
Look at India’s missile development - once the core technology was established, there have been dozens of variants in all sizes and technology capabilities. Same will happen in engine technology as well.
As far as WS engine series, here is a good article on its limitations. I think this article has been shared before. Unless you have new facts to disprove the unreliability assertions in this article, no WS series engine can be considered reliable.

Looks like WS10 is only comparable to AL31F - a significantly underpowered, low reliability engine. And WS13 and WS15 are nowhere. PLA cannot even begin to think of countering the USAF with aircraft powered by WS10 engine variants. Plus, the PLA is still dependent on Russia for 40% of engine spare parts etc as stated in this article. So no, it is going to take another generation for the CCP to master core engine technology. Frankly, only the US, France, and the UK have top engine technology. And that is going to continue for another generation.

The big problem for PLA Navy is that Japanese helicopter carriers modified to service F35Bs can easily take out PLAN carriers with underpowered J20s. And that is a threat PLAN has to live with for a generation or tso, especially as Japan haas significantly increased its defense budget.
 
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jai jaganath

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That’s not how manufacturing works. Only the first core technology takes time. After that the variants mushroom. Just listing the number of engines with each a slightly variant for different needs is something that will be achieved quickly. What India needs to do is to establish the core technology ecosystem.
Look at India’s missile development - once the core technology was established, there have been dozens of variants in all sizes and technology capabilities. Same will happen in engine technology as well.
As far as WS engine series, here is a good article on its limitations. I think this article has been shared before. Unless you have new facts to disprove the unreliability assertions in this article, no WS series engine can be considered reliable.
Leaving unreliability aside bro
But they do have core tech of engine
 

jai jaganath

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Doesn't even look like we're trying.
We deserve the state we're in.
Why is there a need of indigenous engine
Armed forces happy with foreign engine as foreign superiority complex and satisfying import lobby which will benefit them in many way during service and port retirement
MoD officials competency is very well known and they are getting wonderful kickbacks
Drdo or gtre we will try if we get money until then work on what's available and keeping work pressure low
Politicians kya farak padta hai able bar election jitunga ki nahi
Sab khush then why do u need indigenous engine
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Leaving unreliability aside bro
But they do have core tech of engine
Only equivalent to AL31F, a poor performance Russian engine that cannot be used to take on any USAF frontline fighter. GE404 and GE414 and its variants are generations ahead. The threat is very high for PLAN. Today their J20s are powered by this AL31F variants, reverse engineered as WS10. They will be shot right out of the sky by a handful of F35Bs on Japanese helicopter carriers. Plus they have to contend with all the US fighters Taiwan has, which all may have the latest super thrust engines from GE.
‘Having said this, we need to collab with SAFRAN or GE or Rolls Royce to acquire core technology. One way or another this maybe a $10 billion effort for us. And we won’t finance this until we are at least a $6 trillion economy.

We are definitely trying though:
‘For example, DRDO has developed single crystal blade technology for helicopter engines. So that’s a start.

Then we need to advance to developing SCBs for aircraft engines which is a completely different game, as metallurgy required to do this is top secret and only available with the US and UK. Not sure how we will get there. I don’t think we will even try to until we are close to a $10 trillion economy.

This below is our plan. Hope it materializes by 2035. We need a strong, single party nationalistic government until 2047 to achieve all our scientific goals.
 
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jai jaganath

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Only equivalent to AL31F, a poor performance Russian engine that cannot be used to take on any USAF frontline fighter. GE404 and GE414 and its variants are generations ahead. The threat is very high for PLAN. Today their J20s are powered by this AL31F variants, reverse engineered as WS10. They will be shot right out of the sky by a handful of F35Bs on Japanese helicopter carriers. Plus they have to contend with all the US fighters Taiwan has, which all may have the latest super thrust engines from GE.
‘Having said this, we need to collab with SAFRAN or GE or Rolls Royce to acquire core technology. One way or another this maybe a $10 billion effort for us. And we won’t finance this until we are at least a $6 trillion economy.

We are definitely trying though:
‘For example, DRDO has developed single crystal blade technology for helicopter engines. So that’s a start.

Then we need to advance to developing SCBs for aircraft engines which is a completely different game, as metallurgy required to do this is top secret and only available with the US and UK. Not sure how we will get there. I don’t think we will even try to until we are close to a $10 trillion economy.
This point of being inferior is different or should kept aside
What matters is they have the core and ip that's enough to make changes and make platforms better
With the amount they are manufacturing currently I personally feel that their engines might be at level of Russians atleast
Otherwise they aren't fool to replace Russian engines



Leaving everything aside they have their own engine and enough and competent manpower to make it perfect
We don't have it bro
SCB is definitely a great development but they are leagues ahead of us
And I don't think even if we give them 10-15 billion dollars we will get core as they could earn a lot in years than giving it where they have researched deeply with competent minds
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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This point of being inferior is different or should kept aside
What matters is they have the core and ip that's enough to make changes and make platforms better
With the amount they are manufacturing currently I personally feel that their engines might be at level of Russians atleast
Otherwise they aren't fool to replace Russian engines



Leaving everything aside they have their own engine and enough and competent manpower to make it perfect
We don't have it bro
SCB is definitely a great development but they are leagues ahead of us
And I don't think even if we give them 10-15 billion dollars we will get core as they could earn a lot in years than giving it where they have researched deeply with competent minds
But the core tech they have is like what we have for engines in smaller thrusts - like for helicopter, drone engines etc. Can we also claim that we have the core technology then as we have also mastered SCB technology for lower thrust engines? By the way, this lower thrust engine market is huge. And we can make a lot of dollars if we capture this engine market.
I am pretty sure we will gain core tech for advanced jet engines by collaborating with SAFRAN, GE or RollsRoyce. The PMO wants this done. So we have the leadership determination. If we do so, we will be leagues ahead of the CCP. There is a reason we are not working with Russia to gain AL31FP technology. Looks like we are set on jumping straight to advanced reliability engine technology. It all depends on how much money and focus we put on it and treat it as a project of vital national importance. I think we will. So stay positive And track this development below:
 

jai jaganath

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But the core tech they have is like what we have for engines in smaller thrusts - like for helicopter, drone engines etc. Can we also claim that we have the core technology then as we have also mastered SCB technology for lower thrust engines? By the way, this lower thrust engine market is huge. And we can make a lot of dollars if we capture this engine market.
I am pretty sure we will gain core tech for advanced jet engines by collaborating with SAFRAN, GE or RollsRoyce. The PMO wants this done. So we have the leadership determination. If we do so, we will be leagues ahead of the CCP. There is a reason we are not working with Russia to gain AL31FP technology. Looks like we are set on jumping straight to advanced reliability engine technology. It all depends on how much money and focus we put on it and treat it as a project of vital national importance. I think we will. So stay positive And track this development below:
Sirji
They do have core of aircraft engines
Due to which they are able to make many iterations of it be it low bypass or high bypass engines
Thats why they are replacing their existing platforms with Chinese engines
Their engines are nearly at par with Russians


No one can give core so easily either u have to steal or make it by your own
None of them look to occur
 

SexyChineseLady

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Only equivalent to AL31F, a poor performance Russian engine that cannot be used to take on any USAF frontline fighter.
These are intercepts of Chinese fighters using WS-10 engines taken by US and Japanese frontline aircraft ;)

22C002BF-69EB-4B91-A169-763FF75CC3F5.jpeg

C5B578C1-BCD5-4C04-B818-E3DFC7AC998E.jpeg


The J-16s and J-11Bs use the WS-10s and they are by FAR the most common planes used in patrols near Japan and Taiwan:

Japanese fighter pilot Lt. Col. Takamichi Shirota says his country is under increasing pressure from the air. Analysts say it's a pressure faced by few other nations.

More than twice a day, Japanese fighter pilots hear a siren blare, bolt up from their ready-room seats, run to their jets, and scream aloft, ready to intercept a potentially unidentified incursion into Japanese airspace.

It happened to Japan's Air Self Defense Force (JASDF) 947 times in the last fiscal year ending in March. The culprit in most of those cases, warplanes from China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).



Taiwan calls China's repeated nearby military activities "grey zone" warfare, designed to both wear out Taiwan's forces by making them repeatedly scramble, and also to test Taiwan's responses.

The PLAAF/PLANAF are persistant day after day in a strategy designed to wear out the Japanese and Taiwanese air forces so they end up simply accepting Chinese military planes going through those areas.

Short of war no other country runs such an intensive air campaign.

The WS-10s on all those hundreds of J-11s, J-16s and J-10s are wearing down Japanese F-15s and ROC F-16s with their Western engines.

The AL-31F is what the Indian Air Forces use for its 250 SU-30MKIs :)
 

SexyChineseLady

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But the core tech they have is like what we have for engines in smaller thrusts - like for helicopter, drone engines etc. Can we also claim that we have the core technology then as we have also mastered SCB technology for lower thrust engines? By the way, this lower thrust engine market is huge. And we can make a lot of dollars if we capture this engine market.
I am pretty sure we will gain core tech for advanced jet engines by collaborating with SAFRAN, GE or RollsRoyce. The PMO wants this done. So we have the leadership determination. If we do so, we will be leagues ahead of the CCP. There is a reason we are not working with Russia to gain AL31FP technology. Looks like we are set on jumping straight to advanced reliability engine technology. It all depends on how much money and focus we put on it and treat it as a project of vital national importance. I think we will. So stay positive And track this development below:
This is bizarre happy talk. India is jumping to "advanced reliability engine technology" without being able to first power an aircraft for the one turbofan project it was able to fund?! Please return to the real world!

This is J-10 prototype "2004" in the year 2004 sporting the WS-10.
09487257-860A-4B0A-B6BD-447B53620A00.jpeg


The WS-10 could power a single engine plane even back then but the PLAAF stuck with the AL-31 until the J-10B/C beginning in 2018. Because it was only with the WS-10B that the WS-10 engine had finally passed the AL-31 in thrust, reliability and maintenance.

When India can replace the AL-31 with its own heavy class fighter engine then maybe you can be presumptuous enough to say the AL-31 is a bad engine :)

We can see how your 110 kN medium fair against the WS-19 in the coming years. It should be a good race between those two engines and the J-35 and AMCA.

But the J-35 will fly with another Chinese engine, the WS-13 even before the WS-19 is ready ;)

For the AMCA? India doesn't have an industry that can make any engine capable of powering an aircraft yet so there is no other indigenous engine. You need for that 110 kN engine collab with RR or SaFran to work. Or the AMCA will likely live out its life with a foreign engine only.

For China the WS-13 is just another project in an industry that builds thousands of engines and many types of engines :)
 

Gyyan

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This is bizarre happy talk. India is jumping to "advanced reliability engine technology" without being able to first power an aircraft for the one turbofan project it was able to fund?! Please return to the real world!

This is J-10 prototype "2004" in the year 2004 sporting the WS-10.
View attachment 185166

The WS-10 could power a single engine plane even back then but the PLAAF stuck with the AL-31 until the J-10B/C beginning in 2018. Because it was only with the WS-10B that the WS-10 engine had finally passed the AL-31 in thrust, reliability and maintenance.

When India can replace the AL-31 with its own heavy class fighter engine then maybe you can be presumptuous enough to say the AL-31 is a bad engine :)

We can see how your 110 kN medium fair against the WS-19 in the coming years. It should be a good race between those two engines and the J-35 and AMCA.

But the J-35 will fly with another Chinese engine, the WS-13 even before the WS-19 is ready ;)

For the AMCA? India doesn't have an industry that can make any engine capable of powering an aircraft yet so there is no other indigenous engine. You need for that 110 kN engine collab with RR or SaFran to work. Or the AMCA will likely live out its life with a foreign engine only.

For China the WS-13 is just another project in an industry that builds thousands of engines and many types of engines :)
Sorry we can't compete the Chinese way of getting investment and tech is just too "advanced"


Did you work in the same cell too thus the winking habbits?
😘😘😘😘
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Sirji
They do have core of aircraft engines
Due to which they are able to make many iterations of it be it low bypass or high bypass engines
Thats why they are replacing their existing platforms with Chinese engines
Their engines are nearly at par with Russians


No one can give core so easily either u have to steal or make it by your own
None of them look to occur
We have to wait and see. The dynamics of today’s world are different. At the heart of it all is development of SCB that can withstand high temperatures. We clearly are not collaborating with the Russians for Klimov RD93 or the NPO Saturn AL31FP core tech. We are collaborating straight away with western companies that are putting out the latest engine technology in the world. So that tells you something. We are not going the CCP route of building core tech on Russian designs but building our tech on western designs. That is a considerable upgrade of skills that PLA planners would be jealous of.
Let’s see if the 125kN engine can be developed via cooperation from SAFRAN. It is up to us to figure out a way to get our hands on the core tech.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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This is bizarre happy talk. India is jumping to "advanced reliability engine technology" without being able to first power an aircraft for the one turbofan project it was able to fund?! Please return to the real world!

This is J-10 prototype "2004" in the year 2004 sporting the WS-10.
View attachment 185166

The WS-10 could power a single engine plane even back then but the PLAAF stuck with the AL-31 until the J-10B/C beginning in 2018. Because it was only with the WS-10B that the WS-10 engine had finally passed the AL-31 in thrust, reliability and maintenance.

When India can replace the AL-31 with its own heavy class fighter engine then maybe you can be presumptuous enough to say the AL-31 is a bad engine :)

We can see how your 110 kN medium fair against the WS-19 in the coming years. It should be a good race between those two engines and the J-35 and AMCA.

But the J-35 will fly with another Chinese engine, the WS-13 even before the WS-19 is ready ;)

For the AMCA? India doesn't have an industry that can make any engine capable of powering an aircraft yet so there is no other indigenous engine. You need for that 110 kN engine collab with RR or SaFran to work. Or the AMCA will likely live out its life with a foreign engine only.

For China the WS-13 is just another project in an industry that builds thousands of engines and many types of engines :)
All of the WS engines have sub par performance. And there is no indication that WS13 or WS15 are even flightworthy. Looks like it will take the CCP at least a decade to get there. At that time if India and France have managed to pull off the 125kN engine, then yeah india will have an upper hand with a core tech based on the latest western platforms. I am pretty sure SAFRAN would not have offered a collab if they thought that India cannot make it happen. Let’s revisit in 2030 and 2035 and see whose strategy won out.
 

no smoking

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Blame? Well, the past few months I have been throwing dirt at these people called Taoists. Tao seems to spell Goat and goats usually get the blame whether it is their fault or not. There are a huge number of Taoists. Blaming such a large majority seems less likely to lead to total chaos.

Indian gov’t was probably trying to avoid getting Indians caught in the mess the Chinese are now in. Blamed for being too rich, too powerful, making too much stuff, too cheaply, taking (being given) all the jobs and most everything else in order to do that. Chinese probably came to help BUT we all know that no good deed goes unpunished.
So, who is to blamed? India government? These taoists? Or just like you, always blame someone else.
20 years ago, every Indian in this forum was laughing at Chinese huge investment in infrastructure, 15 years later, every member here was cheering that India finally started to invest in her infrastructure.

20 years ago, every Indian claimed that India was going to be a knowledge economy by skip manufacturing, 15 years later, everyone screamed why India lags behind in manufacturing.

Looks everyone with Indian flag was a Taoist at some point of time.



You judge a person’s intent by what they say when trying to make a sale? Lets say the Chinese said, “”Invest” here so we can have the jobs and industry, learn your secrets and own 51% of everything you transfer here.” Would there have been a sale? Probably not.
Which part of "We have been making profit for decades" you don't understand?
 

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