China Economy: News & Discussion

KurtisBrian

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We're so far behind in this regard. India has just now started paying attention to this business.

Although I will say that when it comes to designing we're not bad.
Manufacturing? Nobody can do it on the scale of China... And probably never will because the world has hit peak of globalisation.
of course India has less of certain things than China, how many trillions were taken from the West and given to India?
 
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Varzone

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of course India has less China stole everything it has from the West. Like I said Chi = ying and yang +/- that is black and white or grey. Zerg, berg, berk...Norse black and white god Hel. All the same gang, Catholics, Israelis, Germans, negatives...read the end of big Arnold's name.
Much easier to take and live off of others than to create.
Everyone steals though. Everyone.
Let's be factual. I'm not even going to go into the history like operation paperclip.

US spies on European technology secrets and so does Europe, they don't talk about it too much cos again...PR.

It's easy to criticize China but let's be facts 💯
I'd rather steal and learn and adapt than sit on the stool beating a iron sheet and not having any production ready sensitive machinery when I need it made domestically.
 
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Varzone

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of course India has less of certain things than China, how many trillions were taken from the West and given to India?
It's nobody's but our own fault..it's a give and take world.
I don't know why people think the universe owes them anything
 

KurtisBrian

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Everyone steals though. Everyone.
Let's be factual. I'm not even going to go into the history like operation paperclip.

US spies on European technology secrets and so does Europe, they don't talk about it too much cost again...PR.

It's easy to criticize China but let's be facts 💯
no certain people of their own free will steal, others don't. that must be why Romans, Germans and Muslims keep invading Europe. Why black and white Roman Catholics murdered and robbed the Aztecs of TENochtitlan. Why Romans robbed and murdered the TENa Celts and the people of AThENs.
not many black and white killer whales...lots and lots of Zebras. Greys lose war after war after war. Zerg people like bergs and berks.
 

Varzone

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no certain people of their own free will steal, others don't. that must be why Romans, Germans and Muslims keep invading Europe. Why black and white Roman Catholics murdered and robbed the Aztecs of TENochtitlan. Why Romans robbed and murdered the TENa Celts and the people of AThENs.
not many black and white killer whales...lots and lots of Zebras. Greys lose war after war after war. Zerg people like bergs and berks.
I didn't understand any of that
 

KurtisBrian

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You at least tried reading it. Bucking conditioning. That is impressive in and of itself.
 

no smoking

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of course India has less of certain things than China, how many trillions were taken from the West and given to India?
So who should be blame? China, West or India?
Chinese did everything they could to convince West investors that investing in China is a profitable move. On the other hand, India did nothing except lip works.
Take our company as an example.
When we went to China to seek opportunities, the most frequent question that Chinese government asked is: what can we do to help you making profit?
When we came to India, the attitude is basically like the one we see on this forum: we are the only country has the market size that potentially match China, you should feel lucky that we allow you invest here, so tell me what you can offer to us?
The thing turns out that we have been making good money in Chinese market for decades while making loss in India for years and can't see profitability in near future.
 

SexyChineseLady

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We're so far behind in this regard. India has just now started paying attention to this business.

Although I will say that when it comes to designing we're not bad.
Manufacturing? Nobody can do it on the scale of China... And probably never will because the world has hit peak of globalisation.
Most things in industry you cannot learn without actually putting products into mass production and then fixing and changing the process.

Design is great but if you design something you can't make in an industrialized way then what do you have? You have an experiment not a product :)

The WS-10 is a product. So is the J-10. They both got progressively better through the mass production process. What is learned with the WS-10/J-10 is put into other products so that new engines and airframes are developed faster and faster.

Counting civilian engines, China has over around 13 turbofan projects happening right now in every segment of the market from light trainer engine to medium and heavy fighter ones to high-bypass poweplants transports and airliners -- most of them already on testbeds.

China cannot do this on a fake economy or fake technology base like a lot of Indians here try to convince themselves. They cost billions and need a huge technological and industrial base. India could only fund and attempt to develop one medium engine during that same period.

BTW, China is still a developing nation. Manufacturing hadn't peaked in China. Wait for aircraft engines, spacecraft, airliners and cruiseliners ;)
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Most things in industry you cannot learn without actually putting products into mass production and then fixing and changing the process.

Design is great but if you design something you can't make in an industrialized way then what do you have? You have an experiment not a product :)

The WS-10 is a product. So is the J-10. They both got progressively better through the mass production process. What is learned with the WS-10/J-10 is put into other products so that new engines and airframes are developed faster and faster.

Counting civilian engines, China has over around 13 turbofan projects happening right now in every segment of the market from light trainer engine to medium and heavy fighter ones to high-bypass poweplants transports and airliners -- most of them already on testbeds.

China cannot do this on a fake economy or fake technology base like a lot of Indians here try to convince themselves. They cost billions and need a huge technological and industrial base. India could only fund and attempt to develop one medium engine during that same period.

BTW, China is still a developing nation. Manufacturing hadn't peaked in China. Wait for aircraft engines, spacecraft, airliners and cruiseliners ;)
Almost all of these engines are RD93 derivatives and are not proven. The mechanical failure rates are very high compared to western engines. CCP engines cannot be considered as an advancement of economy. They are not flight worthy, not yet. The propaganda around turbofan development is well known. So let’s not even go there. On asset inflation as a way to increase top line GDP, the entire world knows that. So, no point even debating it.
 

KurtisBrian

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So who should be blame? China, West or India?
Blame? Well, the past few months I have been throwing dirt at these people called Taoists. Tao seems to spell Goat and goats usually get the blame whether it is their fault or not. There are a huge number of Taoists. Blaming such a large majority seems less likely to lead to total chaos.


Chinese did everything they could to convince West investors that investing in China is a profitable move. On the other hand, India did nothing except lip works.
Indian gov’t was probably trying to avoid getting Indians caught in the mess the Chinese are now in. Blamed for being too rich, too powerful, making too much stuff, too cheaply, taking (being given) all the jobs and most everything else in order to do that. Chinese probably came to help BUT we all know that no good deed goes unpunished.

When we went to China to seek opportunities, the most frequent question that Chinese government asked is: what can we do to help you making profit?
You judge a person’s intent by what they say when trying to make a sale? Lets say the Chinese said, “”Invest” here so we can have the jobs and industry, learn your secrets and own 51% of everything you transfer here.” Would there have been a sale? Probably not.
 

SexyChineseLady

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Almost all of these engines are RD93 derivatives and are not proven. The mechanical failure rates are very high compared to western engines. CCP engines cannot be considered as an advancement of economy. They are not flight worthy, not yet. The propaganda around turbofan development is well known. So let’s not even go there. On asset inflation as a way to increase top line GDP, the entire world knows that. So, no point even debating it.
The WS-10 is a heavy engine not a medium one like the RD-93 ;)

It is powering about 1000 frontline fighters -- J-11Bs, J-10B/Cs, J-20As and J-15s so it is about as flight-worthy as you can get :)

The WS-10 has replaced the AL-31 (that India uses on its MKI) on all its aircraft because it has better thrust, reliability and lifespan than the Russian engine.

It is exported too :D
C96ADA43-D512-4E13-BF6D-A8EB15BA8048.jpeg


The WS-20 is a high-bypass engine based off the WS-10 core.
606C9A54-E7CE-4582-8F1F-55D2EB917B8D.jpeg


China ramped up to 200 J-20s just after the WS-10C became available for the J-20:
B5D41528-4719-45F3-9A91-B8675EB09432.jpeg


The WS-15 will soon be here for the J-20 and that's when mass production will go through the roof.

On the medium engines, the WS-13E is powering the FC-31 V2 prototype and the J-35 prototype.
766E701C-794E-424E-9D51-7EE4F62E6F68.jpeg

2C852BE7-EAEA-4312-98C6-E22B74D890ED.jpeg


And the WS-13E is only an interim engine before the WS-19.

India has only the Kaveri but I don't think it even powered a testbed. If China's economy and tech base is fake and India is at the same level or better then where are your engines and your aircraft that use them? Why just one medium engine project? Is the issue money? Technology? Or both?
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Almost all of these engines are RD93 derivatives and are not proven. The mechanical failure rates are very high compared to western engines. CCP engines cannot be considered as an advancement of economy. They are not flight worthy, not yet. The propaganda around turbofan development is well known. So let’s not even go there. On asset inflation as a way to increase top line GDP, the entire world knows that. So, no point even debating it.
Btw, this does not mean that CCPia has only a comparable output to India’s. CCPia is 3 to 4 times ahead of India’s output. Just that there is a large amount of inflated GDP. There is one area where CCPia is volumetrically a of India that needs immediate correction. And this is in scientific research. CCPis 4-5 times ahead here. India better raise the importance of S&T research and pay researchers well and hold them in high esteem in society. Without vigorous scientific research, India cannot advance and hope to match CCPia in certain areas.

 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The WS-10 is a heavy engine not a medium one like the RD-93 ;)

It is powering about 1000 frontline fighters -- J-11Bs, J-10B/Cs, J-20As and J-15s so it is about as flight-worthy as you can get :)

The WS-10 has replaced the AL-31 (that India uses on its MKI) on all its aircraft because it has better thrust, reliability and lifespan than the Russian engine.

It is exported too :D
View attachment 185081

The WS-20 is a high-bypass engine based off the WS-10 core.
View attachment 185080

China ramped up to 200 J-20s just after the WS-10C became available for the J-20:
View attachment 185082

The WS-15 will soon be here for the J-20 and that's when mass production will go through the roof.

On the medium engines, the WS-13E is powering the FC-31 V2 prototype and the J-35 prototype.
View attachment 185083
View attachment 185084

And the WS-13E is only an interim engine before the WS-19.

India has only the Kaveri but I don't think it even powered a testbed. If China's economy and tech base is fake and India is at the same level or better then where are your engines and your aircraft that use them? Why just one medium engine project? Is the issue money? Technology? Or both?
We have gone through this before and supplied sources that clearly identify WS engine’s performance as dubious. Unless CCP has improved the engines since those articles written just a few years ago, there is cause to be still doubtful of WS engine’s performance.
On GDP, no one said that India and CCPia are at the same level. CCPia are certain several times ahead but there is a gigantic portion of the GDP that is just super inflated, junk assets. India must certainly close the GDP gap and increase its budgetary spend on next generation technologies. This cannot happen until we reach at least $5-6 trillion in GDP by 2025-2026. At that point if India fails to prioritize investments in engineering and science, then we are digging our own grave. But a strong government should promote scientific before and engineering R&D heavily. This will happen and is already happening:

A new system of funding R&D has been created. This will boost India’s scientific output several times.
 

SexyChineseLady

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Btw, this does not mean that CCPia has only a comparable output to India’s. CCPia is 3 to 4 times ahead of India’s output. Just that there is a large amount of inflated GDP. There is one area where CCPia is volumetrically a of India that needs immediate correction. And this is in scientific research. CCPis 4-5 times ahead here. India better raise the importance of S&T research and pay researchers well and hold them in high esteem in society. Without vigorous scientific research, India cannot advance and hope to match CCPia in certain areas.

I thought you said the top ranked technology hubs and the Chinese engineering schools are fake?

Obviously, they have to be real to turn out so many scientists (and engineers!) :)

You cannot dominate global high tech sales by such a huge margin without a very large and very real technology base. Exports can't be faked they are tabulated by the other countries as imports ;)

133C6071-C88D-45DA-93BE-E111E78F4309.jpeg
 

rockdog

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We have gone through this before and supplied sources that clearly identify WS engine’s performance as dubious. Unless CCP has improved the engines since those articles written just a few years ago, there is cause to be still doubtful of WS engine’s performance.
On GDP, no one said that India and CCPia are at the same level. CCPia are certain several times ahead but there is a gigantic portion of the GDP that is just super inflated, junk assets. India must certainly close the GDP gap and increase its budgetary spend on next generation technologies. This cannot happen until we reach at least $5-6 trillion in GDP by 2025-2026. At that point if India fails to prioritize investments in engineering and science, then we are digging our own grave. But a strong government should promote scientific before and engineering R&D heavily. This will happen and is already happening:

A new system of funding R&D has been created. This will boost India’s scientific output several times.
The public data on GDP between China and India is around 6:1 in 2022;

The car sales rate by number is 6.5:1; the car sales by value is around 10:1; the electricity consumption is 5:1; the manufactuer GDP is 10:1; the military expenses is 4:1 ...

So basically, the pubic data on GDP for China and India is pretty accurate. If the GDP is only 2:1 or 3:1, the micro data shouldn't be like this.
 

SexyChineseLady

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We have gone through this before and supplied sources that clearly identify WS engine’s performance as dubious. Unless CCP has improved the engines since those articles written just a few years ago, there is cause to be still doubtful of WS engine’s performance.
On GDP, no one said that India and CCPia are at the same level. CCPia are certain several times ahead but there is a gigantic portion of the GDP that is just super inflated, junk assets. India must certainly close the GDP gap and increase its budgetary spend on next generation technologies. This cannot happen until we reach at least $5-6 trillion in GDP by 2025-2026. At that point if India fails to prioritize investments in engineering and science, then we are digging our own grave. But a strong government should promote scientific before and engineering R&D heavily. This will happen and is already happening:

A new system of funding R&D has been created. This will boost India’s scientific output several times.
This just in the last few weeks. Maybe you need to read more relevant articles ;)
7DFE95B9-709A-42D7-93E2-80A7F20A1CE0.jpeg


Chinese turbofans are just getting started. Most of the projects are already in production or powering test and prototype machines and will really come into play in coming years.

They are:
WS-10
WS-13
WS-11
WS-17
WS-15
WS-19
WS-18
WS-20
AEF1300
CJ1000
CJ2000
CJ500

I know that's a lot but you should follow them if you want to see how China (and Asia) will finally make a dent in the Western stranglehold on engines. Most if not all of the above projects will come to fruition.

I honestly hope India makes headway with Kaveri and the 110 kN project you want to partner with RR for. The WS-19 for J-35 is a 110 kN medium engine too so it'll be a fun race ;)

On promoting science and technology: the massive HSR you dismissed was a huge impetus for China's science and tech growth.

The nuclear project where China will be building 150 new nuclear plants (about 80-90% of new nuke plants globally) will be the new HSR. So will the semiconductor industrial crash course brought on by the US bans ;)
 

rockdog

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A new system of funding R&D has been created. This will boost India’s scientific output several times.
You are using a future plan to counter the current situation, not quite persuasive.

When i came to the IT industry during 2004 i was competing Indian outsourcing companies. I admired big Indian IT companies like wipro tata infosys stayam...

But 20 yrs passed i am hiring a Indian team because i am in a higher value position. And i heard no more new good Indian IT company.

Here is no equivalent companies like Alibaba Mi Tecent TikTok Shein PDD...

Even there are some Indian local Internet startups they are backed by Chinese or western capital...

This is just one industry i knew.

The problem is not India wasn't developing. It's the pace China maybe running faster,you even want to down play it but nobody cares. When i started to hire Indian team work for me 2 yrs ago i realized It's wasting time to debate here the fact speaks a lot.
 
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RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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You are using a future plan to counter the current situation, not quite persuasive.

When i came to the IT industry during 2004 i was competing Indian outsourcing companies. I admired big Indian IT companies like wipro tata infosys stayam...

But 20 yrs passed i am hiring a Indian team because i am in a higher value position. And i heard no more new good Indian IT company.

Here is no equivalent companies like Alibaba Mi Tecent TikTok Shein PDD...

Even there are some Indian local Internet startups they are backed by Chinese or western capital...

This is just one industry i knew.

The problem is not India wasn't developing. It's the pace China maybe running faster,you even want to down play it but nobody cares. When i started to hire Indian team work for me 2 yrs ago i realized It's wasting time to debate here the fact speaks a lot.
Yeah we have to use future plans as a yardstick. India is behind CCPia by at least 10 years in the economic growth cycle. Until India reaches $5-6 trillion, massive investments to scale next gen technologies are not possible. India too will have massive tech companies when the economy doubles and triples. By the way, TikTok USA has no relation to TikTok CCPia. They are not even allowed to interact with each other.
Shein is using illegal labor from occupied areas and will likely be banned in the west. The current retail commerce companies will grow massively as the size of the economy grows. There is nothing to creating large companies like Alibaba. They just reflect the size and scale of the economy.
Japanese VC companies are the largest investors in India followed by the US firms.
The fact that India was growing slower than CCPia in the past is well known. This is no longer the case. What are you trying to prove here?
‘Global R&D investment into India is still growing at breakneck speed. You can see that the capacity creation (GCC centers) for R&D is growing at 7-8% in India and India is now in the top 50 innovation index in just 8 years, and will surge even more.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-ticket-to-becoming-an-innovation-powerhouse/

You can see some of the cutting edge R&D product developments in India here:

India may not be a top 20 R&D powerhouse yet like CCPia is but it will get there as all signs show that there is rapid acceleration in R&D investments. Just look at the range of infrastructure created in India both by government and private players in India in the link above. They are at par with what is happening in the top 20 R&D countries.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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This just in the last few weeks. Maybe you need to read more relevant articles ;)
View attachment 185086

Chinese turbofans are just getting started. Most of the projects are already in production or powering test and prototype machines and will really come into play in coming years.

They are:
WS-10
WS-13
WS-11
WS-17
WS-15
WS-19
WS-18
WS-20
AEF1300
CJ1000
CJ2000
CJ500

I know that's a lot but you should follow them if you want to see how China (and Asia) will finally make a dent in the Western stranglehold on engines. Most if not all of the above projects will come to fruition.

I honestly hope India makes headway with Kaveri and the 110 kN project you want to partner with RR for. The WS-19 for J-35 is a 110 kN medium engine too so it'll be a fun race ;)

On promoting science and technology: the massive HSR you dismissed was a huge impetus for China's science and tech growth.

The nuclear project where China will be building 150 new nuclear plants (about 80-90% of new nuke plants globally) will be the new HSR. So will the semiconductor industrial crash course brought on by the US bans ;)
Wit…HSR investments led to engine development? Lol. That is just insane logic. I don’t think the US or USSR had HSR as the bassis for aircraft engine development. Please desist from making such childish statements.
 

rockdog

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By the way, TikTok USA has no relation to TikTok CCPia. They are not even allowed to interact with each other.
Shein is using illegal labor from occupied areas and will likely be banned in the west. The current retail commerce companies will grow massively as the size of the economy grows.
I don't know you are college educated or not, but finding some flaws of those companies to counter my post made no sense.

Unlike Sony or Toyota as common consuming goods, the Social Networks and Fast Fashion industries are quite culture and ideology connected, and a non English speaking nation like China would make such achievement is a mirage, actually 20 yrs ago i thought this kind of oriental companies could from India as a 50% English speaking nation.

The logic behind Shein is how amazing its ability to intergate Chinese texile manufacures and super complex supply chains. They updates 200,000 SKU per month, and if any SKU is below 1,000 pcs sold, it will be disabled from the store. So on the textile value chain, if India or Bangladesh texitle industry are level 1, Shein is level 8 out of 10.

The Tik Tok is backed by AI and recommendation engine technology from ByteDance group, the personal data of Tik Tok is stored locally, but the AI and recommendation system are fully interracted and made in China. Chinese government already released the export ban to such technology this is the key strengh for Tik Tok beating FB or TW on the download list of western nations.


These two would reflect the real value chain gap between two nations.
 
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