`China doesn't want carrier competition with India'

Ray

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One does not build carriers or ship to have a numbers game.

It is decided by the Threat Analysis.
 

Agni5

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what is copied??

nuke sub???

space craft??
An asian country stole unexploded US cruise missiles from middle east ........

remember something? or have you stained it in red, no one can catch you?
 

chase

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1 anything illegal if u turn a gabage AC into 1 u can use?? used to be supposed to be a casino ship.....but plan changed.....any international laws or something there to prohibit the change???illegal or what???

2 the current india basically has nothing to do with indus culture....maybe pakistan does.....your offical language has become english.....

3 i dont care what u were saying....what i were saying is bollywood is a huge cultural copy of hollywood which even by name can be seen.....

4 han cant be converted....not religion.....

2) The indus valley civilization extended from what we today call pakistan(which was formed only 65 years ago) to western india.Taxila the most biggest university of the world in those times used to teach hindu and buddhist philosophy and right now the site falls in pakistan.Pakistan has just left its ancient hindu culture and have tried to become arabic copycats.

3) bollywood is just one of the film industries of india there are industries like kollywood,pollywood,jollywood etc...all this are based on different regional languages...bollywood is just more popular because most people know hindi and bollywood makes hindu movies.
 

chase

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1 english is your offical language.....yes or no???simple question....

2 hollywood and bollywood.....1 has to be copy......tell me which??

3 we bought AC then the company supposed to modify that to a casino ship went bankrupted.....then the gov took it.....no matter what.....tell me which part is illegal??

4 u r the 1 bring the han conversion thing in the debate......i dont know why u did that....
1) First of all know something about the languages of india...do read this:

The Indian census of 1961 recognised 1,652 different languages in India (including languages not native to the subcontinent). The 1991 census recognizes 1,576 classified "mother tongues"[21] The People of India (POI) project of Anthropological Survey of India reported 325 languages which are used for in-group communication by the Indian communities.SIL Ethnologue lists 415 living "Languages of India" (out of 6,912 worldwide).

Now there are 415 living languages that how can one group which speaks hindi can force this language on all people .The general consensus was that we should choose one global language which would be understood by all indians.English was the choice,as hindi can be only read by 20% people.All official works are done in english so that all indians can access it! India is not like communist russia or communist china where one language was shoved up the ass of everyone by destroying diversity.People have their mother tongue and day to day activities in their regional language but all things official are in english.


2) now i don't understand why one has to be a copy...everywhere film industries have a suffix 'ollywood' with any alphabet as a prefix.Indian movie industry originated in Bombay so it called b-ollywood.

3) its your internal matter what you do with a ship you bought...China bought it,china uses it,we have only to do with the outcome of your decision not with how you did it.... don't know why some people are making it an issue here?
 

Jim Street

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More: Some excerpts from Businessweek
1. As far as defense is concerned, no need to take moral high ground. just get the weapon, aircraft or whatever. Learn from them and don't make exact copies like China did. They leap frogged in technology while we .lived in our "indigenous" dream. Posted one sentence by senior officer from Indian Airforce asking DRDO to copy, steal or do whatever, just give them AESA radar. We could have started a joint program with Russia just like PAK-FA for replacement of Migs or ask direct help of theirs in LCA. Our future generations will curse us because we took too many things on ego. I will happily be a thief rather than loosing part of my motherland. Pakistan got nukes by hook or by crook and now India have to think twice before launchimg full scale attack even if we have strong reason like 26/11.

2. Deception is key to their military strategy. China is too influenced by Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Regarding your other post about ACC of India, we are using ACC for atleast 50 years, our ACC played an important role in naval blockade, bombing in East Pakistan. during 1971. China has lot to learn as far as operating an ACCs is concerned coz is too complex to be understood within few years. As far as IAC-1 i concerned its delayed and still 45,000 tonnage will be ready by 2017 while IAC-2 will be 65,000 but many important things like whether it will be STOBAR, steam CATOBAR , aircrafts it will carry. are not yet to be finalized. So don't expect 5 working ACC before 2025 or 2030 where as China will easily build more than we could. They are thinking of nuclear powered engines and EMALS.

So our advantage regarding ACC is short, just 2 decades at max.
 
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Oracle

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1. As far as defense is concerned, no need to take moral high ground. just get the weapon, aircraft or whatever. Learn from them and don't make exact copies like China did. They leap frogged in technology while we .lived in our "indigenous" dream. Posted one sentence by senior officer from Indian Airforce asking DRDO to copy, steal or do whatever, just give them AESA radar. We could have started a joint program with Russia just like PAK-FA for replacement of Migs or ask direct help of theirs in LCA. Our future generations will curse us because we took too many things on ego. I will happily be a thief rather than loosing part of my motherland. Pakistan got nukes by hook or by crook and now India have to think twice before launchimg full scale attack even if we have strong reason like 26/11.
Don't fully agree. I have mentioned my points to the Chinese posters.

2. Deception is key to their military strategy. China is too influenced by Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Regarding your other post about ACC of India, we are using ACC for atleast 50 years, our ACC played an important role in naval blockade, bombing in East Pakistan. during 1971. China has lot to learn as far as operating an ACCs is concerned coz is too complex to be understood within few years. As far as IAC-1 i concerned its delayed and still 45,000 tonnage will be ready by 2017 while IAC-2 will be 65,000 but many important things like whether it will be STOBAR, steam CATOBAR , aircrafts it will carry. are not yet to be finalized. So don't expect 5 working ACC before 2025 or 2030 where as China will easily build more than we could. They are thinking of nuclear powered engines and EMALS.

So our advantage regarding ACC is short, just 2 decades at max.
Indian Navy bombed East Pakistan in 1971? I did not know that. Do you have a source you can share for this valuable piece of information.
 

ice berg

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1. As far as defense is concerned, no need to take moral high ground. just get the weapon, aircraft or whatever. Learn from them and don't make exact copies like China did.
You will have to explain this. What is an exact copy and how do you know this? After all what look alike at the outside and what is inside is two complete different things.
If you said reverse engineering, I may have agreed.
 

J20!

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China will get beaten hands down. Indian Navy is operating an Aircraft Carrier since 1987, 1 more to be delivered by Russia, 3 more indigenously built over the years. And they have 10 more years to go before commission their first one, bought to be made into a floating casino. :D
The Indian Navy has been operating what is now a 50 year old STOVL carrier, that operates less than 10 OBSOLETE harriers that don't even have radars. Yeah, we should be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally scared!

STOVL and STOBAR are two completely different beasts. The UK has been operating carriers long before you were yet they sent their naval fighter pilots and other flight deck personel to the US and France to learn CATOBAR operations anew since whatever skills they had operating CATOBAR carriers were lost. This was before they switched back to the STOVL F35B, but the point still stands.

Only a fanboy would boast about operating an ancient STOVL carrier when comparing two STOBAR carriers. The fact that one comes floating on a bed of hot air and the other flying in at over 200 mph in order to catch one of 3 arrestor wires should tell you something.

The advantage that the IN holds over the PLAN in carrier operations is considerable, yes, but its no where as significant as you seem to wish it were. In terms of operating a STOBAR carrier, even the Brazilians( who have been training PLAN personnel by the way) have more valuable skills since their carrier, being CATOBAR, is infinitely more similar in configuration.
 
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huaxia rox

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1 of many. You want Chinese included as well? Not possible even in future. Tibet still doesnt have significant Han population. :troll:



Why one of it HAS TO BE a copy? Ever considered a world were people don't copy? I know, its a difficult concept to fathom! :pft:



Dude... its your government that you are talking about. Not some junkyard salesman!!! Normally, governments don't act so cheap and that happens to be the point.
i think the language and bollywood thing r in deed minor here so lets focus on varyag......so tell me my indian friend.....which part of reshaping a dumped AC in chinese land is illegal???there r chinese laws russian laws Ukraine laws and internatiomnal laws......which 1 which term u think had been violated???specificly.......
 

huaxia rox

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1. As far as defense is concerned, no need to take moral high ground. just get the weapon, aircraft or whatever. Learn from them and don't make exact copies like China did. They leap frogged in technology while we .lived in our "indigenous" dream. Posted one sentence by senior officer from Indian Airforce asking DRDO to copy, steal or do whatever, just give them AESA radar. We could have started a joint program with Russia just like PAK-FA for replacement of Migs or ask direct help of theirs in LCA. Our future generations will curse us because we took too many things on ego. I will happily be a thief rather than loosing part of my motherland. Pakistan got nukes by hook or by crook and now India have to think twice before launchimg full scale attack even if we have strong reason like 26/11.

2. Deception is key to their military strategy. China is too influenced by Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Regarding your other post about ACC of India, we are using ACC for atleast 50 years, our ACC played an important role in naval blockade, bombing in East Pakistan. during 1971. China has lot to learn as far as operating an ACCs is concerned coz is too complex to be understood within few years. As far as IAC-1 i concerned its delayed and still 45,000 tonnage will be ready by 2017 while IAC-2 will be 65,000 but many important things like whether it will be STOBAR, steam CATOBAR , aircrafts it will carry. are not yet to be finalized. So don't expect 5 working ACC before 2025 or 2030 where as China will easily build more than we could. They are thinking of nuclear powered engines and EMALS.

So our advantage regarding ACC is short, just 2 decades at max.
very thorough anlysis my indian friend.....and i wanna add some more.....

1 chinese copying military stuff is becoz a range of reasons....1 of the very paramount is we cant import some weapons we really need.....some embargo issues etc......and some russian designs have been outdated but prc cant develop some completely new ones so modifications were made based on old russian designs which in deed can be seen as copies.......but we have no choice......

2 chinese admit we ve done some copies which is very different than indians who refuse to admit so......

3 u said
lived in our "indigenous" dream
.....this sentence itself is problemetic.....for example in your tejas project u got many foreigners for help who did a lot of crucial things for u....your whole design....FBW...radar....engine....etc....(all the most important sub systems) were done by foreigners inside or outside india so how indigenous can that be???

4 i think the current situation in prc will be changed within 1-2 decades.....we copying stuff is mainly for 2 things.....1 keep up with the relatively advanced techs....2 one day no need to copy any more.......
 

chase

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i think the language and bollywood thing r in deed minor here so lets focus on varyag......so tell me my indian friend.....which part of reshaping a dumped AC in chinese land is illegal???there r chinese laws russian laws Ukraine laws and internatiomnal laws......which 1 which term u think had been violated???specificly.......
Here's my opinion on it:

CPC has a lot of negative publicity in foreign media.It didn't wanted to alarm the world over buying the AC.Philiphines,Vietnam,Taiwan and Japan has problems with China right now. If China/CPC would have declared that it was buying an AC then USA could have pressurized Ukraine to avert the selling of the AC or atleast delay it.
So china bought it as a casino but they always had the plan to make it into an AC.
 

huaxia rox

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well i think u by and large r right....and u think any part done by the chinese firm or the chinese gov here is illegal???
 

Jim Street

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Don't fully agree. I have mentioned my points to the Chinese posters.

Indian Navy bombed East Pakistan in 1971? I did not know that. Do you have a source you can share for this valuable piece of information.
On December 4 of 1971, the INS Vikrant, the aircraft carrier, was also deployed in which its Hawker Sea Hawk attack aircraft contributed in Air Operations in East Pakistan. The aircraft successfully attacked many coastal towns in East Pakistan including Chittagong and Cox's Bazaar.

Indo-Pakistani Naval War of 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Jim Street

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3 u said .....this sentence itself is problemetic.....for example in your tejas project u got many foreigners for help who did a lot of crucial things for u....your whole design....FBW...radar....engine....etc....(all the most important sub systems) were done by foreigners inside or outside india so how indigenous can that be???

4 i think the current situation in prc will be changed within 1-2 decades.....we copying stuff is mainly for 2 things.....1 keep up with the relatively advanced techs....2 one day no need to copy any more.......
Completely agree with your reason of No Choice. I really don't care how you get it as long as you get it.

Indigenous mean. we tried to build all by our own, then asked for foreign help, couple of bad decisions etc. You may be right about West helping us, which I think was necessary. Either revers engineer it or take their help. No need to reinvent the wheel. But at the same time we refused to take help especially in critical technologies from Russia. 1998 sanctions made things worst.

Having said that, no country's weapon are ENTIRELY indigenous. Even US imports parts from China, recent report of faulty parts.

On your last point, that is what a practical approach should be without going to extreme. Once you have reduced gap in technology level even by small margin, one can become strong power in few decades
 

Tolaha

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i think the language and bollywood thing r in deed minor here so lets focus on varyag......
I agree, language and bollywood are minor things as far as this topic is concerned. You should take this up with the person who brought these topics in this thread! :namaste:

so tell me my indian friend.....
Sure buddy! :aww: :kiss:

which part of reshaping a dumped AC in chinese land is illegal???there r chinese laws russian laws Ukraine laws and internatiomnal laws......which 1 which term u think had been violated???specificly.......
Nope, it did not violate any major international law. There is one when they bought it and also one more probably when they had to cross the Suez canal, but seriously, who the hell gives a damn about these anyway! Also, I dont think anybody questioned the legality of this operation in this thread atleast!
 

Tolaha

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very thorough anlysis my indian friend.....and i wanna add some more.....

1 chinese copying military stuff is becoz a range of reasons....1 of the very paramount is we cant import some weapons we really need.....some embargo issues etc......and some russian designs have been outdated but prc cant develop some completely new ones so modifications were made based on old russian designs which in deed can be seen as copies.......but we have no choice......
Agreed!

2 chinese admit we ve done some copies which is very different than indians who refuse to admit so......
Many here would be damn proud of our scientists if they would just copy the damn thing!

3 u said .....this sentence itself is problemetic.....for example in your tejas project u got many foreigners for help who did a lot of crucial things for u....your whole design....FBW...radar....engine....etc....(all the most important sub systems) were done by foreigners inside or outside india so how indigenous can that be???
Its not completely indigenous! :sad:

4 i think the current situation in prc will be changed within 1-2 decades.....we copying stuff is mainly for 2 things.....1 keep up with the relatively advanced techs....2 one day no need to copy any more.......
That is bound to occur for sure.
 

p2prada

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The Indian Navy has been operating what is now a 50 year old STOVL carrier, that operates less than 10 OBSOLETE harriers that don't even have radars. Yeah, we should be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally scared!

STOVL and STOBAR are two completely different beasts. The UK has been operating carriers long before you were yet they sent their naval fighter pilots and other flight deck personel to the US and France to learn CATOBAR operations anew since whatever skills they had operating CATOBAR carriers were lost. This was before they switched back to the STOVL F35B, but the point still stands.

Only a fanboy would boast about operating an ancient STOVL carrier when comparing two STOBAR carriers. The fact that one comes floating on a bed of hot air and the other flying in at over 200 mph in order to catch one of 3 arrestor wires should tell you something.

The advantage that the IN holds over the PLAN in carrier operations is considerable, yes, but its no where as significant as you seem to wish it were. In terms of operating a STOBAR carrier, even the Brazilians( who have been training PLAN personnel by the way) have more valuable skills since their carrier, being CATOBAR, is infinitely more similar in configuration.
There are some factually incorrect statements here.

Sea Harrier was equipped with the Ferranti Blue Fox radar and Sea Eagles for anti ship roles. Today it has been upgraded with the Israeli 2032 and Derby BVRAAM.

IN has seen 2 carriers till date. The first was commissioned in 1961 and was a CATOBAR aircraft and also had arrestor cables for recovery apart from valuable combat experience gained in 1971. That's the INS Vikrant. It was just bad luck Vikrant was under maintenance during 1965 war.

INS Viraat came much later and was a STOVL. But Viraat's service was still valuable throughout since PAF and PN were always on the defensive.

So, you can say we have experience or going to have experience with 3 types of carriers and it looks like IN has decided CATOBAR is the best of the three.
 

roma

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chinese admit we ve done some copies which is very different than indians who refuse to admit so......
ohh ... you do admit copying do you ?

we used to have a regular poster named " Vladimir" from russia and he never shied away from telling it like it is

and told this forum on more than one occasion that the russian military were fed-up with seeing their products being copied by the dragon and available on the market for "20%" ( or so ) of the cost !!

india does copy the principles of design - everyone does and has to ( there's cant be a copyright on that ) but has never and will never mass produce and compete on the market with the original designer - as dragon often, all too often does - and made the russians "sick" of it !!

dont believe me ? ...where is member vladimir , please ?
 
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