China and Japan dispute over Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands

s002wjh

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If what you say is correct that you are the rep of the US sentiments, I find it surprising that China Daily reports this



Seems to be a disconnect between you and the US Administration and what is reported by the China Daily.

It is understandable that the Chinese Americans would not want any confrontation since China is their parent land, but then the US Administration has to ensure the US strategic interest and not cater solely to the Chinese American sentiments. And the US is not solely of Chinese Americans, nor are they the majority or in any great way affecting the health of the Presidential elections!

The US is such a mixed bag of pot pourri, that one does not know how and where the cat shall jump!
hmm thought you don't trust china daily, apparently you trust the CCP mouth piece when it suit you?:rolleyes:

thre are plently time US mention both side should cool down and settle this peceafully, no where any US official said diaoyu/senkaku island is part of japan and belong to japan.

here is the position from US.

Is the U.S. Committed to Defend the Senkakus? Text of Article 5 of the U.S.-Japan Treaty - Forbes

If–as is implied by the NHK report–Japan thinks that Article 5 can be immediately invoked in dealing with the Senkaku crisis, and that it is thereby standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" with the U.S. against China, I think it is engaging in wishful thinking. During Panetta's hastily arranged stopover in Tokyo on his way to Beijing, his unsubtle command to Japan was not to further escalate the crisis
its naive to think US will goto war with china for some rocks.

also it doesn't matter i'm asian-american or not, i think ALL american agree a confrontation with china is not in the interest of both country. and most american, african-american, asian and white agree a war with china does not benefit US ;)
 
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roma

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

Kissinger before too long will retire into the background and be replaced by Brezinsky ... and Brez has differing views - currently still influenced by Kiss - but once that goes , things likely to change, time running is out for chicoms as their darling Kiss heads toward retirement
 
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s002wjh

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

[PDF][/PDF]
1 factory a day has left the USA daily so that is alarming over 1 decade.
Giving away something and ignoring are two different things. Why give away
something to your enemies?
and since when US consider china an enemy? competitor sure. as for factory, if tis not china then its india, vietnam or mexico. and why blame china when its the corporation outsource the job? did china force US to make stuff there? no ;)
 

s002wjh

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

The United States must interfere in the dispute over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands.


Here's why:
- it is a containment measure. Dropping the gauntlet legitimizes China's expansionist ambitions in the South China sea.
- it is a diplomatically reassuaging measure: It restores confidence in U.S diplomacy and power projection, removes doubts about consistency and strategic-geopolitical positions and assures its allies that it can stand up for them, if the need arises.
- it is a Treaty-obligatory measure. The U.S. is obligated to intervene on behalf of Japan under Article 5 of the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the Japan and the United States. Article 5 states specifically::
"Each Party recognizes that an armed attack against either Party in the territories under the administration of Japan would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional provisions and processes."​
- it is an empirical and historically-consistent measure. To be sure, it was the U.S. that gave administrative control over the Senkaku islands to Japan, and recognized it's right of governance over the islands.
- it is an ambiguity-dispelling and status-coalescing measure. Each measure of increment of biguity strengthens China's territorialist ambitions in the South China Sea and the larger Asia Pacific. It weakens the U.S's resolve and bargaining power vis-a-vis China.
- it is an Asian equilibrium-stabilizing measure: U.S intervention in the Senkaku islands re-stabilizes the politico-military-economic equilibrium in South Asia and the Asia Pacific.
- And finally: it is a strategically-sound measure. China's strategy of engagement with its immediate rivals and competitors is brinkmanship, whether with India, Japan or the Phillipines. And it does this, by asserting its claim over a resource-scarce asset for the country, namely land. This keeps the country on edge, and forces it into a pacifist position vis-a-vis negotiations on a range of issues, to consolidate its gains and leverage over one key issue for it: land. U.S intervention will finally put a stop to that brinkmanship, and allow for more forward engagement for these countries.
no US stance is neutral right now. because its not just china has dispute with japan, but taiwan, south korea, and russia too. if we start say diaoyu island is part of japan, that we alienate other allies, taiwan/s.korea. also make japan bolder, which can escalate things much higher. containment is one thing, but push china into a corner thats something US will not do. its the same reason US doesn't regonize taiwan as an independant country.
the last thing US want to do is push china into a corner and result in a war. china has interest in asia, so does us, but there is a red line that no one should cross. both need give each other some room when dealing with SCS/taiwan etc. heck if you push a mouse into a corner, even the mouse will bite you.
especially now chinese nationlism is running high, if japan/us push this issue, the CCP CAN"T back down even if they want to.

as for claim, these claim happen long time ago. can you give me a reason why vietnam/phillippine has claim over SCS, but not china/malasia? or why japan has more claim right regarding diaoyu island then taiwan/china or why japan claim of s.korean island is theirs.
 
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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

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and since when US consider china an enemy? competitor sure. as for factory, if tis not china then its india, vietnam or mexico. and why blame china when its the corporation outsource the job? did china force US to make stuff there? no ;)
Since the start of communism,this is more than an economic issue one of idealogy.
Communist and capitalism.
 

s002wjh

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

Since the start of communism,this is more than an economic issue one of idealogy.
Communist and capitalism.
and here you still believe they are commy? they are more capitalism then US. they just not democracy.
also no US president or high level offical call china an enemy. they either call them competitor or trade partner. there are issues between each country, but far from been enemy.
 
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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

and here you still believe they are commy? they are more capitalism then US. they just not democracy.
also no US president or high level offical call china an enemy. they either call them competitor or trade partner. there are issues between each country, but far from been enemy.
Did the color of the flag change? Have they been mistaken for a democracy?
Then USA is wasting 700 a billion a year in defense since everything is grand.
 
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Ray

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

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and since when US consider china an enemy? competitor sure. as for factory, if tis not china then its india, vietnam or mexico. and why blame china when its the corporation outsource the job? did china force US to make stuff there? no ;)
The US does not even take Pakistan as an enemy.

In fact it has declared that Pakistan is a non NATO ally.

How come they Drone Pakistan without any mercy?
 

Rage

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

no US stance is neutral right now. because its not just china has dispute with japan, but taiwan, south korea, and russia too. if we start say diaoyu island is part of japan, that we alienate other allies, taiwan/s.korea. also make japan bolder, which can escalate things much higher. containment is one thing, but push china into a corner thats something US will not do. its the same reason US doesn't regonize taiwan as an independant country.
the last thing US want to do is push china into a corner and result in a war. china has interest in asia, so does us, but there is a red line that no one should cross. both need give each other some room when dealing with SCS/taiwan etc. heck if you push a mouse into a corner, even the mouse will bite you.
especially now chinese nationlism is running high, if japan/us push this issue, the CCP CAN"T back down even if they want to.

as for claim, these claim happen long time ago. can you give me a reason why vietnam/phillippine has claim over SCS, but not china/malasia? or why japan has more claim right regarding diaoyu island then taiwan/china or why japan claim of s.korean island is theirs.

I am not interested in Claims. I'm interested in the interest of my country. And that is in containment of China's territorial ambitions in the South China sea, Asia Pacific, South and West Asia. Because China and India are rivals, both short and long-term. And that is achieved, to a degree, by US intervention in the South China sea.

Intervening on behalf of Japan's claim on Senkaku is not pushing China in to the corner. Inveigling on Chinese territory would be.

The CCP is well able to put a lid over Chinese sentiment, or any wanton nationalism, if it chooses to. It does so, with the Chinese right to expression over the internet. It has done so in the past, with Tiananmen, XAR and others. You may argue that it is different now, with the diffusion of the internet and the surge in people's ability to communicate across channels, but so has the CCP's ability to assert itself, its technology and the very resources it has at its own disposal.
 
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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

I am not interested in Claims. I'm interested in the interest of my country. And that is in containment of China's territorial ambitions in the South China sea, Asia Pacific, South and West Asia. Because China and India are rivals, both short and long-term. And that is achieved, to a degree, by US intervention in the South China sea.

Intervening on behalf of Japan's claim on Senkaku is not pushing China in to the corner. Inveigling on Chinese territory would be.

The CCP is well able to put a lid over Chinese sentiment, or any wanton nationalism, if it chooses to. It does so, with the Chinese right to expression over the internet. It has done so in the past, with Tiananmen, XAR and others. You may argue that it is different now, with the diffusion of the internet and the surge in people's ability to communicate across channels, but so has the CCP's ability to assert itself, its technology and the very resources it has at its own disposal.
very true if they can shut down youtube they could have controlled the demonstrations like
they did in Tibet during the olympics. They are using this as leverage for a landgrab.
 

mayfair

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

Oh joy...now we have Chicoms posting under US flag.
 

Ray

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hmm thought you don't trust china daily, apparently you trust the CCP mouth piece when it suit you?

thre are plently time US mention both side should cool down and settle this peceafully, no where any US official said diaoyu/senkaku island is part of japan and belong to japan.

here is the position from US.

Is the U.S. Committed to Defend the Senkakus? Text of Article 5 of the U.S.-Japan Treaty - Forbes

It is not that I like or dislike China Daily.

I quoted the China Daily so that I wanted to spare myself from the usual deafening wail of the Chinese that the news I have quoted is biased.

As you can see, you are in a bind and you cannot rubbish your own country's media, more so when each line is monitored and scrutinised by the Omniscient Communist Party of China and its totalitarian Govt.

Now what does Article 5 say?

It says:

Each Party recognizes that an armed attack against either Party in the territories under the administration of Japan would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional provisions and processes. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall be immediately reported to the Security Council of the United Nations in accordance with the provisions of Article 51 of the Charter. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
1. It means each party shall come to the defence of the other for territories that are under their administration. Note carefully the word – ADMINISTRATION

2. The word ADMINISTRATION puts paid to any concession of claims by any other county. Japan administers these islands or rocks as you claim.

3. In the event of an armed attack, they can, as stated 'all measures' and report the action taken to UNSC and terminate such measures when the UN takes measures to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Therefore, the contributor Stephen Harner and Forbes are themselves not only indulging in wqishful thinking themselves but are in Alice in Wonderland when they claim what you quoted:

If–as is implied by the NHK report–Japan thinks that Article 5 can be immediately invoked in dealing with the Senkaku crisis, and that it is thereby standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" with the U.S. against China, I think it is engaging in wishful thinking. During Panetta's hastily arranged stopover in Tokyo on his way to Beijing, his unsubtle command to Japan was not to further escalate the crisis
Japan and South Korea are critical to the US strategy. If they were not so, then US military presence in such formidable numbers and weaponry would not have been stationed. They would have left as they did from Subic Bay in the Philippines.

One has to understand this subtlety in geostrategy and geopolitics rather than give flight to personal apprehension for one's mother country on gossamer wings!


its naive to think US will goto war with china for some rocks.

also it doesn't matter i'm asian-american or not, i think ALL american agree a confrontation with china is not in the interest of both country. and most american, african-american, asian and white agree a war with china does not benefit US

Little rocks to you, but not to Japan or the US.

All Americans have not forgotten Pearl Harbour or even 9/11. Americans are like elephants they lumber around peaceable, but they do not forget. And they don't have to. They still have the military might to impose their will around the world. The way China is cooling its heels over SCS is a case in point, without a single shot fired even in anger! The US Navy patrols where it wants including the SCS with none daring to confront them. China is most humble to their presence, but does flex their muscle with smaller nations like Vietnam where China confronts them with naval aggressive postures to include combat! So, the US does impose its will as it desires and none can challenge. All China can do is make some angry noise reminiscent of Mao's famous words – paper tiger. He used it in context with the US, but in actuality it has turned out that China is the real paper tiger! All bark and no bite!

You had said the US does not consider China as the enemy.

That is the public position.

If it were not so, then could you explain this?

Washington, Stennis carrier strike groups operate in Andaman Sea

ANDAMAN SEA – The USS George Washington and USS John C. Stennis carrier strike groups steamed together in the Andaman Sea Oct. 12, conducting integrated flight operations while also practicing surface and anti-submarine drills.

Located in the northeast edge of the Indian Ocean, the Andaman Sea narrows to form the Strait of Malacca, one of the most important shipping lanes in the world. Both CSGs have been conducting forward-presence operations and port visits in the vital Asia-Pacific region for the past three weeks, but having two aircraft carriers operating together in the Andaman Sea is an unusual opportunity.

"The U.S. Navy routinely conducts dual-aircraft carrier operations in international waters when and where opportunities exist. However, I believe this is the first time it has been done in the Andaman Sea,"¦

"These operations are vital in improving interoperability and readiness to respond across the full range of military operations from humanitarian assistance to combat missions"¦..

"Integrated operations are essential to our ability to effectively respond to any threat or crisis in the region," said Rear Adm. Chuck Gaouette, commander of the Stennis CSG. "As the Asia-Pacific region continues to grow in importance, we must ensure we are capable of operating in a complex environment in order to continue to promote peace, cooperation and stability here."

Consisting of more than 10,000 sailors, 120 aircraft, four escort ships and a supply replenishment ship, both CSGs patrolled the U.S. 7th Fleet area of operations"¦"¦

After recently patrolling in the South China Sea,

The George Washington CSG is led by Rear Adm. J. R. Haley and consists of his Carrier Strike Group Five staff, Destroyer Squadron 15, Carrier Air Wing Five, the flagship aircraft carrier USS George Washington, the guided-missile destroyer USS McCampbell (DDG 85) and the frigate USS Vandegrift (FFG 48).

The John C. Stennis CSG is led by Rear Adm. Gaouette and consists of his Carrier Strike Group Three staff, Destroyer Squadron 21, Carrier Air Wing Nine, the flagship aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis, the guided-missile cruiser USS Mobile Bay (CG 53) and the guided-missile destroyer USS Paul Hamilton (DDG 60). The group is also joined by the fast combat support ship USNS Bridge (T-AOE-10)

Read more: DVIDS - News - Washington, Stennis carrier strike groups operate in Andaman Sea
Why were the patrolling SCS and what was China doing?

By deploying and practising such a huge naval armada at the mouth of an international strategic choke point, the Malacca Straits, is the US posing a warning to Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Australia, New Zaealand, Vietnam, Kampuchea, Japan that US can cut off their oil and other trade that comes from the Middle East, Africa and other part of Asia on the West of the Malacca Strait? That would be daft because some countries are the allies of the US and the others are neutral, but depending on the US umbrella owing to the spooking China has done claiming all the Seas, the Oceans and all the islands are theirs and theirs alone! And the US is not daft. They have a method in what you may claim as madness.

Why do you think no nation calls another an enemy?

Because none wants to upset the trade apple cart!

So, banish the delusion!
 

mayfair

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really, thats not what wiki and many site says. the island belong to china during ming/qing dynasty, china lost it to japan as well as taiwan after 1st sino-japan war. you might want to look at the history before claim japan has the right to it.
I am well aware of my history. Thank you very much. History has many faces my friend. Koreans have lot of of historical claims on Manchuria, wish to entertain those?

At present Senkakus are recognised worldwide as Japanese territory, just like Manchuria is recognised as a part of China not Korea or Japanese administered Manchukuo.
 

no smoking

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

I am not interested in Claims. I'm interested in the interest of my country. And that is in containment of China's territorial ambitions in the South China sea, Asia Pacific, South and West Asia. Because China and India are rivals, both short and long-term. And that is achieved, to a degree, by US intervention in the South China sea.
Unfortunately US is not interested to defend india's interest. Containment of China may be a part of US strategy, but they would prefer to fight for it with the money or blood of indians or Japaneses!


Intervening on behalf of Japan's claim on Senkaku is not pushing China in to the corner. Inveigling on Chinese territory would be.
The next top leader warned US defence secretary that face to face. Maybe you think that is bluffing while americans don't.

The CCP is well able to put a lid over Chinese sentiment, or any wanton nationalism, if it chooses to. It does so, with the Chinese right to expression over the internet. It has done so in the past, with Tiananmen, XAR and others. You may argue that it is different now, with the diffusion of the internet and the surge in people's ability to communicate across channels, but so has the CCP's ability to assert itself, its technology and the very resources it has at its own disposal.
So, what is your point? CCP doesn't care about diaoyu island? or Chinese public doesn't care it?
 

W.G.Ewald

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

Kissinger before too long will retire into the background and be replaced by Brezinsky ... and Brez has differing views - currently still influenced by Kiss - but once that goes , things likely to change, time running is out for chicoms as their darling Kiss heads toward retirement
Kissinger is already so old he farts dust. He is a relic, not to be taken seriously.
 

Ray

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

Kissinger is already so old he farts dust. He is a relic, not to be taken seriously.

:rofl:


Has he been to China recently?

Is he the one who is emitting dust and desertifying China?
 

s002wjh

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

Did the color of the flag change? Have they been mistaken for a democracy?
Then USA is wasting 700 a billion a year in defense since everything is grand.
consider thousands, perhap millions american rely on defense industry, you don't expect we cut significant budget and layoff defense contractors:rolleyes:
 

s002wjh

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Re: Kissinger: US should not take sides on Diaoyu Islands

I am not interested in Claims. I'm interested in the interest of my country. And that is in containment of China's territorial ambitions in the South China sea, Asia Pacific, South and West Asia. Because China and India are rivals, both short and long-term. And that is achieved, to a degree, by US intervention in the South China sea.

Intervening on behalf of Japan's claim on Senkaku is not pushing China in to the corner. Inveigling on Chinese territory would be.

The CCP is well able to put a lid over Chinese sentiment, or any wanton nationalism, if it chooses to. It does so, with the Chinese right to expression over the internet. It has done so in the past, with Tiananmen, XAR and others. You may argue that it is different now, with the diffusion of the internet and the surge in people's ability to communicate across channels, but so has the CCP's ability to assert itself, its technology and the very resources it has at its own disposal.
NO ccp can't put a lid on its population when everyone screaming war with jap. think why CCP is doing the economy growth, because taht will satisfy majority of chinese. as long as majority are satisfy, then CCP has legitimate excuse to control the country. selling out diaoyu island or taiwan is not acceptable for most chinese. despite the fact CCP is not democracy, they still has to listen to the opinions of majority of chinese, this was show over and over again(check different news related ariticle how government bow to protest etc). there is no force in the world that can control hundreds millions chinese if they decide to do something.
 

s002wjh

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I am well aware of my history. Thank you very much. History has many faces my friend. Koreans have lot of of historical claims on Manchuria, wish to entertain those?

At present Senkakus are recognised worldwide as Japanese territory, just like Manchuria is recognised as a part of China not Korea or Japanese administered Manchukuo.
really which country said diaoyu is part of japan,. and japan has absolute rigth over it? any link?
 

s002wjh

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It is not that I like or dislike China Daily.

I quoted the China Daily so that I wanted to spare myself from the usual deafening wail of the Chinese that the news I have quoted is biased.

As you can see, you are in a bind and you cannot rubbish your own country's media, more so when each line is monitored and scrutinised by the Omniscient Communist Party of China and its totalitarian Govt.

Now what does Article 5 say?

It says:



1. It means each party shall come to the defence of the other for territories that are under their administration. Note carefully the word – ADMINISTRATION

2. The word ADMINISTRATION puts paid to any concession of claims by any other county. Japan administers these islands or rocks as you claim.

3. In the event of an armed attack, they can, as stated 'all measures' and report the action taken to UNSC and terminate such measures when the UN takes measures to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Therefore, the contributor Stephen Harner and Forbes are themselves not only indulging in wqishful thinking themselves but are in Alice in Wonderland when they claim what you quoted:



Japan and South Korea are critical to the US strategy. If they were not so, then US military presence in such formidable numbers and weaponry would not have been stationed. They would have left as they did from Subic Bay in the Philippines.

One has to understand this subtlety in geostrategy and geopolitics rather than give flight to personal apprehension for one's mother country on gossamer wings!





Little rocks to you, but not to Japan or the US.

All Americans have not forgotten Pearl Harbour or even 9/11. Americans are like elephants they lumber around peaceable, but they do not forget. And they don't have to. They still have the military might to impose their will around the world. The way China is cooling its heels over SCS is a case in point, without a single shot fired even in anger! The US Navy patrols where it wants including the SCS with none daring to confront them. China is most humble to their presence, but does flex their muscle with smaller nations like Vietnam where China confronts them with naval aggressive postures to include combat! So, the US does impose its will as it desires and none can challenge. All China can do is make some angry noise reminiscent of Mao's famous words – paper tiger. He used it in context with the US, but in actuality it has turned out that China is the real paper tiger! All bark and no bite!

You had said the US does not consider China as the enemy.

That is the public position.

If it were not so, then could you explain this?



Why were the patrolling SCS and what was China doing?

By deploying and practising such a huge naval armada at the mouth of an international strategic choke point, the Malacca Straits, is the US posing a warning to Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Australia, New Zaealand, Vietnam, Kampuchea, Japan that US can cut off their oil and other trade that comes from the Middle East, Africa and other part of Asia on the West of the Malacca Strait? That would be daft because some countries are the allies of the US and the others are neutral, but depending on the US umbrella owing to the spooking China has done claiming all the Seas, the Oceans and all the islands are theirs and theirs alone! And the US is not daft. They have a method in what you may claim as madness.

Why do you think no nation calls another an enemy?

Because none wants to upset the trade apple cart!

So, banish the delusion!
again, like the forbe magazine says, its naive to think US will drag into a war for some lump of rocks. and NO US official to this day said diaoyu island is japan Terroritory, and will support japan claim. the reason is simple, doing so will escalte the sitution much higher, which US try to avoid.

if what you said is true and US will help japan over these island, then whey the heck japan not making any bolder move to escalte the sitution, therefore settle this issue once for all. the fact is US already given china/japan hint not to escalte the issue.

there are alot resource on this issues, check it.
 
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