China and Japan begin talks on building alliance

[Vladimir79]

Vladimir this will be the second time the Chinese backstab Russia first time taking USA's side to help bring down the Soviet empire and now taking Japanese side while being in SCO. This may have been proposed by USA to bring down SCO.

You want to read something interesting about China backstabbing? Take a look at this!

China may become a guarantor of Ukrainian security

 

[LETHALFORCE]

China seems to be working on their encirclement of Russia , along with this USA wants them to play a role in afghanistan so slowly they are encirling Russia, with the above link you gave i doubt SCO will ever truly reach it's potential.

 

[ppgj]

You want to read something interesting about China backstabbing? Take a look at this!

China may become a guarantor of Ukrainian security

sorry, off topic-
who is that in the picture in your link under your profile?

 

[Vladimir79]

If China attempts an encroachment on Ukraine, we will have no choice but to take out their dictator Yushenko and place our own pro-Moskva rule.

 

[Vladimir79]

sorry, off topic-
who is that in the picture in your link under your profile?

That is me...

 

[ppgj]

That is me...

i caught you.:dfi-1:

 

[Vladimir79]

I thought it was pretty obvious...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If China attempts an encroachment on Ukraine, we will have no choice but to take out their dictator Yushenko and place our own pro-Moskva rule.

I always liked the way Russia takes a proactive stance in their security issues, I always wondered why India can't be more like this??

 

[ppgj]

I thought it was pretty obvious...

most people don't put.
anyway sorry for going off.

 

[Vladimir79]

I always liked the way Russia takes a proactive stance in their security issues, I always wondered why India can't be more like this??

Just as we cannot allow them to join NATO, we cannot allow them to join a Sino-Ukraine alliance. We are preparing Ukraine the same way we did Georgia by issuing 10 million passports. When Yushenko crosses the line, which he has done many times, we will act. Ukraine knows this is coming which is why the Rada is advocating nuklear weapons and is cozy to China. They know they can't count on NATO just as Georgia couldn't. We want Crimea and the freedom of all Russian citizens living under their failed state. It will come when we have finished reforming the Army.

 

[Martian]

There is a downside to invading and annexing part of Georgia. There is an even bigger downside to invading and possibly annexing part of Ukraine. Russia will scare all of her neighbors and her world image will be very bad. Trade and tourism will suffer. Russia will pay an economic price.

And no, I don't believe in a Sino-Ukraine alliance. Nato is a magnitude more powerful and richer than China. China will not go to war to protect Ukraine; that's like saying that the Soviet Union will go to war against China to protect Vietnam. However, if Ukraine is accepted into Nato, I think most of us will agree that Nato will go to war to defend Ukraine's borders. There are already Nato jets patrolling Lithuanian airspace.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Martian I do not agree, Georgia had the misperception they were under the NATO umbrella when they started their misadventure in S.Ossetia, when Russia stepped in and slapped them back to reality.

 

[p2prada]

There is a downside to invading and annexing part of Georgia. There is an even bigger downside to invading and possibly annexing part of Ukraine. Russia will scare all of her neighbors and her world image will be very bad. Trade and tourism will suffer. Russia will pay an economic price.

OIL.

And no, I don't believe in a Sino-Ukraine alliance. Nato is a magnitude more powerful and richer than China. China will not go to war to protect Ukraine; that's like saying that the Soviet Union will go to war against China to protect Vietnam. However, if Ukraine is accepted into Nato, I think most of us will agree that Nato will go to war to defend Ukraine's borders. There are already Nato jets patrolling Lithuanian airspace.

NATO is hopeless, a spent force. NATO soldiers are getting fat on sausages, Swiss cheese and playing the Xbox. They are no longer the fighting force they were 30 years ago. Look up Afghanistan.

 

[johnee]

NATO is hopeless, a spent force. NATO soldiers are getting fat on sausages, Swiss cheese and playing the Xbox. They are no longer the fighting force they were 30 years ago. Look up Afghanistan.

Slightly off-topic:

Do you really think that failure in Afghanistan is because of soldiers on ground or political policies? Anyway, we know that the real source of terrorism in Afghanistan lies in Pakistan, so Afghanistan cannot be dealt without dealing with Pakistan.

 

[Martian]

Georgia was foolish to "jump the gun." Georgia should not have tried to take back its two breakaway regions until AFTER it was officially part of NATO.

NATO is losing in Afghanistan because of American ROE (Rules of Engagement). For example, I read that the US observed two guys digging a hole in a road. However, the US could not bomb them because they had not technically proven that they were doing something bad. The US had to wait a few days until the two guys came back with a bomb and wires then the US could finally launch an airstrike.

Another example, even if you suspect insurgents are crossing the mountains at night, you cannot bomb them. You must clearly see guns to determine that they are insurgents; otherwise they might be shepherds.

I know. I know. These examples sound ridiculous. But that's American ROE for you. I already know that under these conditions, the US will not win. The best the US can hope is for a stalemate.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

In Afghanistan the war is being lost simply because the insurgents are fighting from pakistan and USA is fighting in Afghanistan very simple if USA does not take the war into pakistan there is no chance of winning and after 8 years of knowing this fact and failing to act on it, it seems like USA does not want to win.

 

[Vladimir79]

There is a downside to invading and annexing part of Georgia. There is an even bigger downside to invading and possibly annexing part of Ukraine. Russia will scare all of her neighbors and her world image will be very bad. Trade and tourism will suffer. Russia will pay an economic price.

We are already under sanction from the US, it hasn't done anything. Our interests lie in the EU and they are too dependent on us to do anything about it. Besides, stable Russian rule will ensure uninterupted energy supplies to Europe instead of Ukraine stealing it.

And no, I don't believe in a Sino-Ukraine alliance. Nato is a magnitude more powerful and richer than China. China will not go to war to protect Ukraine; that's like saying that the Soviet Union will go to war against China to protect Vietnam.

CCCP was just about ready to go to war when China pulled a couple million troops on our border. If China has designs on the Far East it can never be ruled out and just the threat of Chinese invasion would require us to divert troops needed for invasion of Ukraine.

However, if Ukraine is accepted into Nato, I think most of us will agree that Nato will go to war to defend Ukraine's borders. There are already Nato jets patrolling Lithuanian airspace.

We will never allow Ukraine to join NATO, that is like Taiwan declaring independence.

 

[Martian]

I still can't understand why China would be interested in a military alliance with Ukraine. Why would China be interested in encircling Russia? That's American or NATO military strategy. China does not have foreign military bases. America has 600 to 750 foreign military bases.

I also can't understand the Russian fear of Chinese designs on the Far East. Conquering land to acquire natural resources made sense 100 to 200 years ago. That is the old way of thinking. With the development of GATT and the successor WTO, any nation can acquire whatever resources that it needs on the international market. For example, look at Japan. They have no resources, but they can import everything (i.e. oil, chemicals, metals, etc.) from abroad. Why do you think the Russian Far East is special? All of the commodities that are there are readily available on the world market; and China has no shortage of money (i.e. 2.1 trillion foreign exchange reserves).

By the way, Ukraine and Taiwan are two different situations. Ukraine is a recognized member of the UN. Taiwan is not a recognized country in the UN. The US has already recognized Taiwan as being part of China in diplomatic communiques from the 1970s. Also, with the exception of approximately 20 small islands/nations, the majority of 170ish nations in the world recognize Taiwan as being part of one China. Ukraine and Taiwan have very different standings in the international community.

 

[Vladimir79]

I still can't understand why China would be interested in a military alliance with Ukraine. Why would China be interested in encircling Russia? That's American or NATO military strategy. China does not have foreign military bases. America has 600 to 750 foreign military bases.

I also can't understand the Russian fear of Chinese designs on the Far East. Conquering land to acquire natural resources made sense 100 to 200 years ago. That is the old way of thinking. With the development of GATT and the successor WTO, any nation can acquire whatever resources that it needs on the international market. For example, look at Japan. They have no resources, but they can import everything (i.e. oil, chemicals, metals, etc.) from abroad. Why do you think the Russian Far East is special? All of the commodities that are there are readily available on the world market; and China has no shortage of money (i.e. 2.1 trillion foreign exchange reserves).

100-200 years ago??? Are you not a student of history? Only 65 years ago Japan had an Empire to gain resources. Even today the US continues an empire to secure them. What do you think those 750 bases are for?? Once the price of fuels start to peak China will not be able to afford them and they will have little choice but to expand.

By the way, Ukraine and Taiwan are two different situations. Ukraine is a recognized member of the UN. Taiwan is not a recognized country in the UN. The US has already recognized Taiwan as being part of China in diplomatic communiques from the 1970s. Also, with the exception of approximately 20 small islands/nations, the majority of 170ish nations in the world recognize Taiwan as being part of one China. Ukraine and Taiwan have very different standings in the international community.

You are not looking at it from Russian perspective. Russia has vowed Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO the same as China has vowed not to allow Taiwan to declare independence. The point is the result will be the same... invasion.

 

[Martian]

If you round up 65 years, it is 100 years. The point remains the same. It is old thinking. Japan did not lack resources when she waged war on China. In fact, because of Japanese aggression in China during the 1930s, the US started to impose embargoes on Japan for items such as rubber.

"United States Cuts Natural Resources to Japan

In 1940, as events heated up in Europe, the commercial treaty governing trade relations between the United States and Japan lapsed. From that time on, in Congress there were demands for a "total trade embargo against Japan." The result was that Japan was deprived of aviation fuel, scrap metal, and eventually copper and brass, then virtually every raw material of importance from America."

Read more: Japan Favors War with America: U. S. Places Trade Embargo Against Japan | Suite101.com

If Japan had not waged war on China, the US would have continued to supply Japan with her raw material needs.

The US does not need 750 military bases to trade. The US is a busybody and it is providing security to the rest of the world for free. For example, US military bases in Britain, Germany, South Korea, Japan, etc. serve no real purpose. The Cold War is over, but the expensive bases are still there. What a waste of money.

Even if fuel prices increase, China has plenty of coal. If necessary, China can build more CTL (coal-to-liquid) plants. See The Great Beyond: China joins exclusive coal-to-liquid club

I understand your point with regards to Ukraine. Though Ukraine is a sovereign country, as a practical matter, I don't think anyone is willing to fight a war with Russia to defend the Ukraine. To quote the British show "Mr. Prime Minister:" we defend the weak against the strong, but Russia is too strong!