China among top five arms exporters, India top buyer

[J20!]

Mostly they sale on line of credit. It's obvious because countries with hefty pockets opt for Western equipments .
If Western technology is barred they will go for Russian platforms.

Only countries with minuscule defense budget opt for Chinese equipment.
Like Bangladesh or Myanmar etc. There is no way they can pay full amount without credit or they get weapons heavily subsidized.
Now there might be exceptions but they will be rare.

That theory has been debunked over n over again on this thread. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan Egypt, Angola, Malaysia, the UAE etc etc have all bought high end defense equipment in the billions from China. Myanmar and Bangladesh are still legitimate defense export destinations.

So when India sells equipment to Myanmar and Bangladesh, we shouldn't account for those exports in India's annual figure for exports?

 

[IndianHawk]

That theory has been debunked over n over again on this thread. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan Egypt, Angola, Malaysia, the UAE etc etc have all bought high end defense equipment in the billions from China. Myanmar and Bangladesh are still legitimate defense export destinations.

So when India sells equipment to Myanmar and Bangladesh, we shouldn't account for those exports in India's annual figure for exports?

When did I said anything about counting export figures. Your making conclusion in your head. Of course any export will be counted as export.

Barring Saudi and Kuwait and maybe UAE non other had capacity to pay billion dollars without credit. That's all I said it's mostly credit driven.

Now for example if Chinese claim Pakistan pays for Chinese 'exports' that sounds dubisous since Pakistani didn't had 700million$$ to buy there wet dream f16.

You can count such export as gift or donation that would be much more appropriate.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

That theory has been debunked over n over again on this thread. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan Egypt, Angola, Malaysia, the UAE etc etc have all bought high end defense equipment in the billions from China. Myanmar and Bangladesh are still legitimate defense export destinations.

So when India sells equipment to Myanmar and Bangladesh, we shouldn't account for those exports in India's annual figure for exports?

Obviously you have no clue either because US arms supply to Pakistan is adjusted from its annual aid to the country. Which means transfers take place from US treasury to Pentagon to arms contractors. As for Pakistani purchases from China, pakistan has earmarked 2.35 billion for the whole JF17 programme. This is miniscule for 250 4th gen fighter jets and no way Chinese contractors will get profit on it and will have to be compensated by CCP. My sense is that Chinese arms exports to Pakistan are financed through 3 ways:
1) Offsets to Chinese companies by way of single bid contracts of mines and natural resources. Gwadar port has been transferred to a Chinese company for 100 years without competitive bidding. If this is not daylight robbery , what is?
2) Finance by Saudi Arabia in return for transfer of some nukes
3) Some degree of subsidization by Chinese.

All in all the actual cash received by Chinese for these exports to Pak will not be more than 20% of their actual stated value.

 

[IndianHawk]

WRT Pakistan. Can anyone claiming that Pakistan doesn't pay for its defense acquisitions give us proof?

SOME (not all) Chinese military exports to Pakistan are on a credit basis, which means they PAY the balance over an agreed period, but at the end of the day, the defense contractors are paid on delivery and the Pakistani govt PAYS the Chinese govt.

The Pakistani armed forces have bought AWACS aircraft, naval corvettes, radars and missile systems from China years before the Gwadar agreement, yet you all claim "they mortgaged their land in GB and Gwadar for these purchases".

Show me the proof. Show us the memorandum of understanding stating that agreement... I keep saying this over n over again. Pakistan is a customer like any other, it buys defence equipment from Sweden, to the USA, and Russia. Those countries count Pakistani exports in their annual export accounts, why shouldn't China do the same?

Plus SIPRI does the accounting, an international organisation; not the CCP, so I still don't understand your downplaying of Chinese military exports with the Pakistan card.

If Pakistani had that much money first thing that they would've bought was f16.
Pakistani are severely dependent on American aid for their defense purchases.
That is very well documented. without that then cannot buy anything sophisticated.

May be few million dollars they can manage not more than that.
They just somehow paid up IMF debt. Although more will be required soon enough.

So in particular case of Pakistan it's you who must show the proof of payment. Because anyone in whole wide world won't believe otherwise.

 

[J20!]

When did I said anything about counting export figures. Your making conclusion in your head. Of course any export will be counted as export.

Barring Saudi and Kuwait and maybe UAE non other had capacity to pay billion dollars without credit.

Now for example if Chinese claim Pakistan pays for Chinese 'exports' that sounds dubisous since Pakistani didn't had 700million$$ to buy there wet dream f16.

You can count such export as gift or donation that would be much more appropriate.

You're trying to draw a distinction without a difference. A $600 million dollar deal for tanks or corvettes from Bangadesh or Myanmar are still LEGITIMATE EXPORTS. Saying they bought it on credit does not diminish the fact that it is an EXPORT, that is being paid for by their governments. A loan IS NOT A GIFT.

And again, please prove that all the defense tech sold to countries "Barring Saudi and Kuwait and maybe UAE" were on a credit basis. You're just making things up now. The corvettes to Algeria, HQ9 Long range air defense systems to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, trainer jets sold to Egypt etc, where they all on credit lines?

France sold its Mistral LHD's to Egypt ON CREDIT. Don't they count as exports? Are they gifts? Try thinking logically instead of nationalistic think.

 

[J20!]

Obviously you have no clue either because US arms supply to Pakistan is adjusted from its annual aid to the country. Which means transfers take place from US treasury to Pentagon to arms contractors. As for Pakistani purchases from China, pakistan has earmarked 2.35 billion for the whole JF17 programme. This is miniscule for 250 4th gen fighter jets and no way Chinese contractors will get profit on it and will have to be compensated by CCP. My sense is that Chinese arms exports to Pakistan are financed through 3 ways:
1) Offsets to Chinese companies by way of single bid contracts of mines and natural resources. Gwadar port has been transferred to a Chinese company for 100 years without competitive bidding. If this is not daylight robbery , what is?
2) Finance by Saudi Arabia in return for transfer of some nukes
3) Some degree of subsidization by Chinese.

All in all the actual cash received by Chinese for these exports to Pak will not be more than 20% of their actual stated value.

The recent F35 deal with Israel was still counted as an export regardless of the fact that they where paid for with aid money.

Cousin. You haven't provided any proof for your "Pakistan is getting defense tech for free" assertions. Give me a link to your source. Where is the memorandum of understanding ceding Gwadar to China for JF17's? Where is your source for the 20% figure you just cited?

You do know that the deal for Gwadar is a commercial lease, not a military agreement right? How can a commercial agreement include defense deals? You're not making sense.

Where are the documents providing "some degree of subsidization by the Chinese govt"? Where is your proof that these exports to Pakistan are "gifts"?

 

[IndianHawk]

You're trying to draw a distinction without a difference. A $600 million dollar deal for tanks or corvettes from Bangadesh or Myanmar are still LEGITIMATE EXPORTS. Saying they bought it on credit does not diminish the fact that it is an EXPORT, that is being paid for by their governments. A loan IS NOT A GIFT.

My original post was in turn a reply to somebody's questions . Now go back read the question and read the answer.

You're just making things up now. The corvettes to Algeria, HQ9 Long range air defense systems to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, trainer jets sold to Egypt etc, where they all on credit lines?

Have a look at defense budgets of these countries.
Uzbekistan defense budget is 70million $$.
Do I need to tell more. Debate end here for me.

You and I both don't have access to classified documents but some things are obvious how can someone pay cash when he doesn't have cash:biggrin2:

 

[IndianHawk]

France sold its Mistral LHD's to Egypt ON CREDIT. Don't they count as exports? Are they gifts? Try thinking logically instead of nationalistic think.

Again jumping the gun.
Of course it counts like a said in my post already.

In case of Pakistan it was a gift I concluded based on dire financial situation of Pakistan.

Nothing nationalistic here.

 

[J20!]

If Pakistani had that much money first thing that they would've bought was f16.
Pakistani are severely dependent on American aid for their defense purchases.
That is very well documented. without that then cannot buy anything sophisticated.

May be few million dollars they can manage not more than that.
They just somehow paid up IMF debt. Although more will be required soon enough.

So in particular case of Pakistan it's you who must show the proof of payment. Because anyone in whole wide world won't believe otherwise.

Pakistan opted for developing an Indigenous light weight fighter that could be produced em mass in Pakistan over a few dozen extra F16's. That's just a rational calculation. India had the same thought with the LCA, even tho it doesn't seem it will be deployed "en mass" anytime soon.

Only INDIANS don't believe straight forward facts reported by SIPRI, an independent organisation in no way affiliated with the CCP.

You made an assertion, and I'm asking you to prove it. Simple. Its all in your head because the thought of Pakistan "begging" makes Indians happy, but its not a factual assertion. Period. A LOAN IS NOT A GIFT people!

 

[J20!]

Again jumping the gun.
Of course it counts like a said in my post already.

In case of Pakistan it was a gift I concluded based on dire financial situation of Pakistan.

Nothing nationalistic here.

What's nationalistic is that YOU JUST MADE THAT UP. How can you conclude something with no concrete facts leading to that assumption?

You're saying the Chinese government, just handed over Billions in defense equipment to another sovereign nation for FREE OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS.

Prove it homie. You saying something because you hate Pakistani's doesn't make it true you know...

 

[IndianHawk]

Pakistan opted for developing an Indigenous light weight fighter that could be produced em mass in Pakistan over a few dozen extra F16's. That's just a rational calculation.

F16 purchase fiasco had nothing to do with jf17 program.

Linking both of them is just distorting the argument.

Pakistan will anyday buy (or beg) a subsidized f16. No argument about it.

Since American denied money Pakistan couldn't afford it. 700millio $$ that Pakistan didn't had not have now and neither will have anytime soon.
My feelings are irrelevant.

You made an assertion, and I'm asking you to prove it.

I just did . Tell me how Uzbekistan with 70million $$ defense budget would pay for an air defense system without credit.

In which universe it is possible????

 

[IndianHawk]

You're saying the Chinese government, just handed over Billions in defense equipment to another sovereign nation for FREE OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS.

Chinese will earn money through captive market of Pakistan. It's a strategic decision I believe. USA has been doing same since decades. India donates helicopters tanks to Afghanistan.

Why so surprised.

 

[J20!]

Chinese will earn money through captive market of Pakistan. It's a strategic decision I believe. USA has been doing same since decades. India donates helicopters tanks to Afghanistan.

Why so surprised.

When India transferred USED helicopters from its own armed services to Afghanistan, it announced it to the world via diplomatic channels and news reports. Where are the Chinese or Western reports announcing Chinese donations of brand-new defense tech to Pakistan?

Where are the reports of Pakistan Leasing Gwadar to a Chinese company for defense tech? You're asking us to believe that all Chinese exports to Pakistan where gifts or subsidized yet there are no reports to BACK UP your assertions.

 

[IndianHawk]

Where are the reports of Pakistan Leasing Gwadar to a Chinese company for defense tech?

Are you denying that gwadar and cpec has nothing to with strategic partnerships in defense between china and Pakistan that's delusional.

You're asking us to believe that all Chinese exports to Pakistan where gifts or subsidized yet there are no reports to BACK UP your assertions.

Yes I am because there is no other way about it. Pakistan just recently survived an economic collapse by receiving IMF bailout in terms of 250-300 million $$ receipts regularly over many years.

How can they pay for anything when they are this close to bankruptcy.
What is so hard to understand.

Even if you name it a loan you very well know it won't be paid of . Chinese have been writing of loans of various countries in Africa and Latin America.

One might call it lacking business acumen or strategic investment. I don't know how Chinese treat it. But it's a very simple and regular phenomenon.

 

[IndianHawk]

Where are the Chinese or Western reports announcing Chinese donations of brand-new defense tech to Pakistan?

There might be no reports to cover the great Pakistani pride .
Although there were reports of Pakistani gifting some ambulances to china.
It was a PR thingy.

 

[J20!]

Are you denying that gwadar and cpec has nothing to with strategic partnerships in defense between china and Pakistan that's delusional.


Yes I am because there is no other way about it. Pakistan just recently survived an economic collapse by receiving IMF bailout in terms of 250-300 million $$ receipts regularly over many years.

How can they pay for anything when they are this close to bankruptcy.
What is so hard to understand.

Even if you name it a loan you very well know it won't be paid of . Chinese have been writing of loans of various countries in Africa and Latin America.

One might call it lacking business acumen or strategic investment. I don't know how Chinese treat it. But it's a very simple and regular phenomenon.

I'm denying that Gwadar was a swap deal for arms. If it was, there'd be extensive documentation to back-up that assertion if that were the case. Sovereign countries don't just lease land for arms hush hush with zero reporting.

Pakistan BUYS defense equipment from China. Whether it be on a credit line, a soft loan or direct payment.

You said the loans they take end up being bad debts. But you just SAY IT, but have no source for your assertions. A default on a govt-govt loan is a big deal with huge ramifications. But you would have us believe that everything is happening on the down low with 0 evidence.

 

[J20!]

There might be no reports to cover the great Pakistani pride .
Although there were reports of Pakistani gifting some ambulances to china.
It was a PR thingy.

"might"? You're still making things up with no evidence IH.

I swear Indians lose all sense of logic where Pakistan is involved.

 

[IndianHawk]

I'm denying that Gwadar was a swap deal for arms. If it was, there'd be extensive documentation to back-up that assertion if that were the case. Sovereign countries don't just lease land for arms hush hush with zero reporting.

Pakistani dependence on Chinese arms gives china leverage on all other deals.
To think Chinese won't use this influence is daydreaming. Of course it was not a swap deal . Who does that openly.??

You said the loans they take end up being bad debts. But you just SAY IT, but have no source for your assertions. A default on a govt-govt loan is a big deal with huge ramifications. But you would have us believe that everything is happening on the down low with 0 evidence.

Let's see.
https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.valuewalk.com/2015/12/china-africa-debt/amp/

Debt is forgiven very regularly in international deals it's called building influence. Chinese have been doing it .

Now you are just arguing for the sake of it.

 

[IndianHawk]

"might"? You're still making things up with no evidence IH.

I swear Indians lose all sense of logic where Pakistan is involved.

Your swearing is very logical I see.

Here
https://www.google.co.in/amp/tribun...atise-power-firms-angering-imf-sources/?amp=1

A country that has too seek 500million$$ bailout package can surely buy Chinese weapons worth billions cash of course.

So very logical of chinese.:bounce:

 

[J20!]

Pakistani dependence on Chinese arms gives china leverage on all other deals.
To think Chinese won't use this influence is daydreaming. Of course it was not a swap deal . Who does that openly.??


Let's see.
https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.valuewalk.com/2015/12/china-africa-debt/amp/

Debt is forgiven very regularly in international deals it's called building influence. Chinese have been doing it .

Now you are just arguing for the sake of it.

Looks like someone's been frantically googling for a source and failed to find one.

China has been forgiving infrastructure debt to African countries overburdened with IMF loans. Very true. Where does the article mention the writing off of bad debts for Pakistani defense equipment?

Pakistan is a military-run country with a $7 billion dollar defense budget. They buy defense equipment directly or on credit like any other nation on earth. Pakistan begging for arms is just an Indian myth to fan your pride.