Capacity of OFB's

[bose]

OFB needs modernization ... we are still using the British era machinery for production... when was we last modernized them ??

OFB needs modern machinery, process optimization and supply chain management ... Bring private participation into OFB... that will bring accountability on individuals...

 

[Bhadra]

There is nothing wrong with outsourcing from OFB, as long as it stays in country. They aren't outsourcing to China I hope.

Logically, If a factory has to outsources its work why should it exist .... then the govt should outsource ..
So far China is concerned ... it has developed big capacities and manufacturing capabilities ... and OFB would be very glad to place orders with them if they except .. such as supply of pyrotechniques..fuses, components, electronics... and as it is the suppliers give Chinese mal only..

 

[ezsasa]

If anybody is arguing for all OFB's should close down, i think that is not a safe proposition.

Closing down all OFB's is like giving the keys of kingdom to the private sector.

My points:

1. Private sector's main priority is profit margin.
2. There are close to none indian private players who are dedicated military equipment suppliers, the major players in our case are TATA, Reliance , L&T and Mahindra and all of them have fingers in other sectors. if some thing like 2008 financial meltdown occurs again their main priority is to save themselves not India's strategic interests.
3. Public sector companies are the reason india felt very few effects of 2008 meltdown.
4. Incase of big ticket items like say planes, if say a plane manufactured by private player crashes it is difficult to judge whether the company will float after the tempers cool down. indian stock markets are too unpredictable and unforgiving.
5. And most importantly we may not have Parrikar as RM all the time. what if we get somebody like st. anthony again, then we will be truly screwed.

i say there has to be long term plan spanning atleast 20 years where percentage of orders are slowly diverted from Public sector to Private players. Atleast 30% of orders should always with OFB or DPSU, so that incase any supply chain is disrupted Govt institutions should be able to ramp up.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Private co`s Reputation in quality manufacturing is unmatched hence lots of INSAS 1B1`s parts are now manufacture by Pvt co, OFB /ARDE provide Tot of parts and metallurgy knowlage to Private co, Only the barrel is made by OFB, Afaik ..

Similarly, ARDE providing tot to mahindra co, For manufaturing Tank rounds, Which i noted at defexpo 2014 ..

=============

@Ray Sir, During Kargil war, Their were no Indian company let it Pvt or Gov were manufatruing 155mm Shells, Only after war, SVD and its rounds are still imported and the rounds are still rare in mass, Many unit use INSAS 1b1 for SVD as ammunition and spare is available in mass ..

Yes, Never had any issues with ammunition availability on firing range, The ammunition are coming of better quality and feature such as smokeless powder ..

IOF 64gr 5.56x45mm FMJ rounds at range

Wait... it isn't manufactured by OFB? Who are the Private Cos taking away from state orders?

Then why the fuss by CAG? Confession: I am yet to read the report.

Don't mind my stating that I am surprised that you say we never had shortage in ammunition.

Of course, we have had and we are still having.

We have had shortages in arty, tank, specialised infantry weapon ammunition like the Sniper rifles and imported weaponry. Even in the Kargil War we were perilously close to exhausting our Bofor ammunition. When I was in AHQ, we had a slippages in Carl Gustavs and their ammunition..

 

[Armand2REP]

Logically, If a factory has to outsources its work why should it exist .... then the govt should outsource ..
So far China is concerned ... it has developed big capacities and manufacturing capabilities ... and OFB would be very glad to place orders with them if they except .. such as supply of pyrotechniques..fuses, components, electronics... and as it is the suppliers give Chinese mal only..

Do you think OFB is so hopeless it should be shut down for outsourcing?

 

[sgarg]

@ezsasa, the argument against private sector - "profit motive" is the silliest argument as no person is working in public sector for free. The fact remains that PSUs are highly inefficient and wasteful. The public sector has become a liability in India due to politics and militant labour.

An enterprise flourishes on hard work and innovation. The people who deliver must be compensated. The deserving must get the money, this is the fundamental economic logic. The economic system must support innovation and hard work, which is only possible through incentives to the right people.

 

[pmaitra]

Logically, If a factory has to outsources its work why should it exist .... then the govt should outsource ..
So far China is concerned ... it has developed big capacities and manufacturing capabilities ... and OFB would be very glad to place orders with them if they except .. such as supply of pyrotechniques..fuses, components, electronics... and as it is the suppliers give Chinese mal only..

Look at it this way.

You have a product. The product has many components. Different components can be made in different factories. Sure, one can make all the components in house. It is not uncommon to have components made in different factories, because, certain factories might have expertise in certain areas.

If we are making a submarine in a shipyard, does than mean we have to make the lens of the periscope that goes into the submarine in the shipyard?

Karl Zeiss makes lenses of periscopes, for example. Do you think those lenses are made in the shipyard?

So, a factory might make a system, but its subsystems could be procured from other specialized factories. nothing wrong with it. It does not take anything away from the final assembly point which might make some, but not all components, in house, and the final assembly point exists for exactly that reason.

 

[Bhadra]

Look at it this way.

You have a product. The product has many components. Different components can be made in different factories. Sure, one can make all the components in house. It is not uncommon to have components made in different factories, because, certain factories might have expertise in certain areas.

If we are making a submarine in a shipyard, does than mean we have to make the lens of the periscope that goes into the submarine in the shipyard?

Karl Zeiss makes lenses of periscopes, for example. Do you think those lenses are made in the shipyard?

So, a factory might make a system, but its subsystems could be procured from other specialized factories. nothing wrong with it. It does not take anything away from the final assembly point which might make some, but not all components, in house, and the final assembly point exists for exactly that reason.

No sir, perhaps outsourcing then is not understood. Outsourcing means you are making someone to do that job which you were supposed to do... due to shortage of manpower, material or cost reduction measure or some other reason. If an Ordinance factory is built around to produce mortar ammunition it may bring in fuzes from another factory which is manufacturing it. It is not outsourcing. Outsourcing is that the factory has given order to someone else to manufacture bomb cases which otherwise they were supposed to do.

Assembling various components is a different thing.

 

[pmaitra]

No sir, perhaps outsourcing then is not understood. Outsourcing means you are making someone to do that job which you were supposed to do... due to shortage of manpower, material or cost reduction measure or some other reason. If an Ordinance factory is built around to produce mortar ammunition it may bring in fuzes from another factory which is manufacturing it. It is not outsourcing. Outsourcing is that the factory has given order to someone else to manufacture bomb cases which otherwise they were supposed to do.

Assembling various components is a different thing.

So, what is a factory supposed to do that it is not doing but "outsourcing" to another factory? Like your example of bomb cases, this debate will vary on specific cases, and there are thousands of specific cases that we can pick.

Now, let me take on example you gave - electronics. Who will make them in India? Private companies won't. Government companies can't. So, we have no choice but to import them from other countries, which includes PRC.

Now, you may ask why do factories exist in India if we have to import? Well, sir, the answer is, such factories simply do not exist. Electronics is one area where India lags.

 

[SajeevJino]

.

I think Bhadra Sir saying .. It's OFB's work to do Something, But they doing with Privates

and Pmaitra sir saying .. OFB needs many subsystems and they just buying from Privtae

two different thinks .I feel

 

[pmaitra]

@ezsasa, the argument against private sector - "profit motive" is the silliest argument as no person is working in public sector for free. The fact remains that PSUs are highly inefficient and wasteful. The public sector has become a liability in India due to politics and militant labour.

An enterprise flourishes on hard work and innovation. The people who deliver must be compensated. The deserving must get the money, this is the fundamental economic logic. The economic system must support innovation and hard work, which is only possible through incentives to the right people.

For a very long time, the only plant that could supply alloys for Indian space rockets was the Bhilai Steel Plant. Private companies simply did not bother to innovate.

Later, when India started launching more rockets and the missile programme took off, the demand for such alloys increased, and now, L&T also supplies such alloys. Why did L&T agree to supply these alloys now? Because, the volume of orders, or demand, has gone up enough to make economic sense for L&T. Had it been otherwise, they would not have bothered with innovating.

@ezsasa has a point. Private companies are primarily motivated by making profits. They'd rather sell a poorly manufactured product for higher profit than a well engineered product for less profit.

This is the harsh reality of economics.

Look at how Maruti 800 took market share from Ambassador, when, Maruti 800 was inferior to the Ambassador in every single way.

One more example, but this time from the US. VolksWagen always made cars with good interiors. Then, 3 years back, they launched the Jetta, which had interiors made of cheap plastics and was far below the usual VolksWagen standards, and soon, their market share increased. Even BMW, that once boasted about the superiority of AWD, was forced to introduce inferior front 2 wheel drive vehicles, just to retain market share.

These are examples where private companies, thanks to economic realities, have done exactly the opposite of innovation. Private companies are always motivated by profit.

 

[Bhadra]

For a very long time, the only plant that could supply alloys for Indian space rockets was the Bhilai Steel Plant. Private companies simply did not bother to innovate.

Later, when India started launching more rockets and the missile programme took off, the demand for such alloys increased, and now, L&T also supplies such alloys. Why did L&T agree to supply these alloys now? Because, the volume of orders, or demand, has gone up enough to make economic sense for L&T. Had it been otherwise, they would not have bothered with innovating.

@ezsasa has a point. Private companies are primarily motivated by making profits. They'd rather sell a poorly manufactured product for higher profit than a well engineered product for less profit.

This is the harsh reality of economics.

Look at how Maruti 800 took market share from Ambassador, when, Maruti 800 was inferior to the Ambassador in every single way.

One more example, but this time from the US. VolksWagen always made cars with good interiors. Then, 3 years back, they launched the Jetta, which had interiors made of cheap plastics and was far below the usual VolksWagen standards, and soon, their market share increased. Even BMW, that once boasted about the superiority of AWD, was forced to introduce inferior front 2 wheel drive vehicles, just to retain market share.

These are examples where private companies, thanks to economic realities, have done exactly the opposite of innovation. Private companies are always motivated by profit.

I am sure you do not want private companies to go insolvent !

What you are saying happens with all companies and all countries. In other countries when the industry starts making one particular thing commercially in bulk the government agencies swith to something else or just close down unlike India where private industry is killed for the sake of PSU..

For example why should ordinance factories exist to make textiles and shoes, shoe laces, kit bags, trampoline. jute sacks ... in rality ..no they are not making but buying from market and forcing or passing it on the Armed Forces; that is what they call tendering and outsourcing which actually is acting like a middleman or agent. It is something like BEML not dealing with OEM but a middleman company.

The result :

Armed Forces do not get quality material..
they are made to pay double profit. or double commission.
there is no accountability with the supplier.
The end user suffers in all respect ..

 

[Bhadra]

 

[Bhadra]

The above table speaks for itself .. shortfalls are from Ordnance factories themselves and they can not blame it on others

 

[Spindrift]

The talk about IOF not having modern equipment is BS. Eley did a setup for IOF to produce .22 ammo and the ammo is so bad that they the IOF guys themselves mention in the .22 Revolver manual they sell to use imported ammo.

 

[Ray]

Private co`s Reputation in quality manufacturing is unmatched hence lots of INSAS 1B1`s parts are now manufacture by Pvt co, OFB /ARDE provide Tot of parts and metallurgy knowlage to Private co, Only the barrel is made by OFB, Afaik ..

Similarly, ARDE providing tot to mahindra co, For manufaturing Tank rounds, Which i noted at defexpo 2014 ..

=============

@Ray Sir, During Kargil war, Their were no Indian company let it Pvt or Gov were manufatruing 155mm Shells, Only after war, SVD and its rounds are still imported and the rounds are still rare in mass, Many unit use INSAS 1b1 for SVD as ammunition and spare is available in mass ..

Yes, Never had any issues with ammunition availability on firing range, The ammunition are coming of better quality and feature such as smokeless powder ..

IOF 64gr 5.56x45mm FMJ rounds at range

Which Pvt Co produces ammunition? If they do, which one.

As far as Kargil goes, it goes to show poor planning and stocking.

Amn shortage has been a perennial problem.

For a CO, the service amn (1st Line, 2nd Line) is as important as practice amn, which is never in short supply since it is calculated as to what each man requires to do his ARC and it is replenished with the service amn that is turned.

Which pvt Co provides part for the INSAS and which parts?

I read on this forum a TOI report posted by Shaitan that the Govt wanted to outsource and it met with stiff resistance from the workers.

 

[sob]

Ishapore RF received the latest CNC Machines around 2003-2004. They were the top of the line stuff. However the machine tool manufacturer had reported horrible working conditions and a lack of willingness by the workers to work on the new CNC machines.

 

[ezsasa]

@ezsasa, the argument against private sector - "profit motive" is the silliest argument as no person is working in public sector for free. The fact remains that PSUs are highly inefficient and wasteful. The public sector has become a liability in India due to politics and militant labour.

An enterprise flourishes on hard work and innovation. The people who deliver must be compensated. The deserving must get the money, this is the fundamental economic logic. The economic system must support innovation and hard work, which is only possible through incentives to the right people.

My points are more inclined towards the idea that not all 100% of defence procurement should be handed over to pvt companies. Some percentage of defence procurement orders should be retained among DPSU.

 

[tharun]

Private co`s Reputation in quality manufacturing is unmatched hence lots of INSAS 1B1`s parts are now manufacture by Pvt co, OFB /ARDE provide Tot of parts and metallurgy knowlage to Private co, Only the barrel is made by OFB, Afaik ..

Similarly, ARDE providing tot to mahindra co, For manufaturing Tank rounds, Which i noted at defexpo 2014 ..

=============

@Ray Sir, During Kargil war, Their were no Indian company let it Pvt or Gov were manufatruing 155mm Shells, Only after war, SVD and its rounds are still imported and the rounds are still rare in mass, Many unit use INSAS 1b1 for SVD as ammunition and spare is available in mass ..

Yes, Never had any issues with ammunition availability on firing range, The ammunition are coming of better quality and feature such as smokeless powder ..

IOF 64gr 5.56x45mm FMJ rounds at range

SVD rounds are still importing, why cant our ofb cannot replica it?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Its tenders, Which produce butt, Grip and muzzle breaker / flasher, Magazine and other most parts except for the barrels which are produce at IOF ..

About the 5.56mm ammunition, I said its available in plenty and its made by IOF which have better features like smokeless powder ..

=============

SVDs and SVD rounds are still imported because Government nor Army asked for its indegenisation, This is going since previous government which is much interested in kick backs ..

Which Pvt Co produces ammunition? If they do, which one.

As far as Kargil goes, it goes to show poor planning and stocking.

Amn shortage has been a perennial problem.

For a CO, the service amn (1st Line, 2nd Line) is as important as practice amn, which is never in short supply since it is calculated as to what each man requires to do his ARC and it is replenished with the service amn that is turned.

Which pvt Co provides part for the INSAS and which parts?

I read on this forum a TOI report posted by Shaitan that the Govt wanted to outsource and it met with stiff resistance from the workers.

SVD rounds are still importing, why cant our ofb cannot replica it?