BrahMos Cruise Missile

[aarav]

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2013/12/04/how_indias_cryogenic_programme_was_wrecked_31365

This is Kremlin Propaganda site which is confirming the myths propagated by Natasha lovers

 

[Enquirer]

India was not part of MTCR. So, there was no agreement at all. Russia was part of MTCR but it anyways gave India Brahmos and cryogenic engines. Duh!

You're not making any sense at all!! Russia was part of MTCR and hence forced to abide by the terms (however distortedly used).
Russia gave Brahmos to India so it violated MTCR??? Where do you think the 290 km range restriction comes from?
Russia sold limited cryo engines whose use was strictly limited to satellite launch vehicles (easily monitored)! The issue (again, however distorted) was the that Tech if given would leak into Indian missile program!

Do you ever think logically before posting?????????

India does not get highly critical technology from anyone except Russia. No matter what license fee is, the technology gained will cause losses to foreign players. It is not that Saudi Arabia will be able to buy license just because they will honour IPR.

Given the volume of defence deals it's not surprising that Russia provides some critical tech!
It's fairly obvious to see that given the potential size of fighter jet deal with IAF, every Western country is willing to do a complete ToT of highly complex tech too!!! Now you'll say that no one is offering stealth tech but only old tech! Russia doesn't transfer tech for its most cutting weaponry either.

Russia didn't do anything out of the goodness of its heart!!!
In fact, the opposite is true! Whenever Russian economy was tanking India went out of the way to place large orders with Russia to help boost it's economy! Even going to the extent of prepaying almost all of the money even before Russia even produced a single screw that would go into the product!!!

 

[sthf]

Firstly MTCR has been 'enforced' several times - including being misused to block Russia's cryogenic engine tech transfer to ISRO!

Excellent!!! How did that work out? FYI, you might wanna look up "enforced".

Secondly, India has been 'leasing' the Russian Nuclear submarines - it's a workaround that prohibits 'sale' of the nuclear

And this makes a difference because?

India has Russian nuclear submarines and I am yet to read a source which says that India can't "lease" it for its 35-40 year lifetime.

Does this seem "enforced" to you?

Net-net earlier Brahmos missiles must have come with some range blocking techniques (however small & trivial it might have been!)

Why? India is the end user of the missile and is not bound by any law to provide its true range to anybody.

Did an organisation or a country raised objections over this?

Did some international fact finding committee entered India to check on the missiles?

It is just that India and Russia agreed that Brahmos is a MTCR compliant weapon system and that is pretty much it.

This is a graphic from CSBA on surface threat to UN Navy using Jane's.

This was before India joined MTCR (2014). Apparently screaming 290km was fooling no one and none were bothered by it.

 

[Enquirer]

Excellent!!! How did that work out? FYI, you might wanna look up "enforced".

What is your point????

And this makes a difference because?

India has Russian nuclear submarines and I am yet to read a source which says that India can't "lease" it for its 35-40 year lifetime.

Does this seem "enforced" to you?

Again, what's your point???
Whoever said that India 'cannot' lease nuclear subs???
If the international terms suggest 'sale' is prohibited, then someone will think of clever ways to find loopholes.

Why? India is the end user of the missile and is not bound by any law to provide its true range to anybody.

Did an organisation or a country raised objections over this?

Did some international fact finding committee entered India to check on the missiles?

It is just that India and Russia agreed that Brahmos is a MTCR compliant weapon system and that is pretty much it.

Inspection regime comes in when someone is strongly suspected of violation!
Not every country is inspected for nuclear material usage, does that mean they're all secretly developing nuclear weapons?

 

[sthf]

What is your point????

That it not a binding agreement and therefore cannot be "enforced". Members of MTCR adhere to the principles voluntarily, on paper. Now which part of the word "voluntarily" is troubling you.

You cannot cannot enforce something which is not legally binding.

Again, what's your point???
Whoever said that India 'cannot' lease nuclear subs???
If the international terms suggest 'sale' is prohibited, then someone will think of clever ways to find loopholes.

Who says that sale of nuclear submarines is prohibited? France is offering to a nuclear submarine to Brazil and the day is not far when it will offer the same to India.

Inspection regime comes in when someone is strongly suspected of violation!
Not every country is inspected for nuclear material usage, does that mean they're all secretly developing nuclear weapons?

What inspection regime? Both the exporter and end user are supposed provide certifications about the usage of the weapon system and that is it.

It cannot inspect anything without the wishes of exporter and end user.

So, Brahmos has a longer range than claimed is supposed to be such a secret that DRDO acknowledged it in a presentation, IHS Janes knew that for years and none of the members of MTCR "strongly suspected of violation".

Dude stop wasting my time.

 

[Enquirer]

That it not a binding agreement and therefore cannot be "enforced". Members of MTCR adhere to the principles voluntarily, on paper. Now which part of the word "voluntarily" is troubling you.

You cannot cannot enforce something which is not legally binding.



Who says that sale of nuclear submarines is prohibited? France is offering to a nuclear submarine to Brazil and the day is not far when it will offer the same to India.



What inspection regime? Both the exporter and end user are supposed provide certifications about the usage of the weapon system and that is it.

It cannot inspect anything without the wishes of exporter and end user.

So, Brahmos has a longer range than claimed is supposed to be such a secret that DRDO acknowledged it in a presentation, IHS Janes knew that for years and none of the members of MTCR "strongly suspected of violation".

Dude stop wasting my time.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass for your time!
Only reason I respond to your nonsense is because others reading your nonsense should know that it's nothing but nonsense!
Obviously you've no regard for facts or ethics. Fortunately India purports itself to be an ethical national that abides by its treaties and laws of the world!!

 

[sthf]

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass for your time!
Only reason I respond to your nonsense is because others reading your nonsense should know that it's nothing but nonsense!
Obviously you've no regard for facts or ethics. Fortunately India purports itself to be an ethical national that abides by its treaties and laws of the world!!

Very comprehensive and well articulated rebuttal. Now fuck off.

PS: MTCR is a NOT a treaty.

 

[sayareakd]

Guys stick to topic, dont get personal or emotional.

 

[Kshithij]

You're not making any sense at all!! Russia was part of MTCR and hence forced to abide by the terms (however distortedly used).
Russia gave Brahmos to India so it violated MTCR??? Where do you think the 290 km range restriction comes from?
Russia sold limited cryo engines whose use was strictly limited to satellite launch vehicles (easily monitored)! The issue (again, however distorted) was the that Tech if given would leak into Indian missile program!

Do you ever think logically before posting?????????

Are you out of your mind? You irst say that cryogenic engines fall under MTCR but then you claim that transferring 7 engines was OK.

The 290km was only farcical as there was no physical restriction. The range was 450km and the pretension of 290km does not change anything. One looks at capability, not self imposed restrictions

Given the volume of defence deals it's not surprising that Russia provides some critical tech!
It's fairly obvious to see that given the potential size of fighter jet deal with IAF, every Western country is willing to do a complete ToT of highly complex tech too!!! Now you'll say that no one is offering stealth tech but only old tech! Russia doesn't transfer tech for its most cutting weaponry either.

Russia didn't do anything out of the goodness of its heart!!!
In fact, the opposite is true! Whenever Russian economy was tanking India went out of the way to place large orders with Russia to help boost it's economy! Even going to the extent of prepaying almost all of the money even before Russia even produced a single screw that would go into the product!!!

Russia gave MiG21 in 1970s for mass manufacture in India, then they gave assistance in developing several PSU like BHEL, BEL etc. Russia went out of its way to lease nuclear submarine to a non nuclear country India in 1987. They then offered cryogenic engines, Brahmos, Su30 etc to India.

USA will never give any ToT for highly complex items. USA always gives technology to India when their intelligence finds that India is in the last stage of developing that technology. Such cheap tactics is not called offering high end technology.

 

[Kshithij]

It was 290km, same as the export version of Yakhont. It wasn't until MTCR was signed that the P800 engines were incorporated.

The engines were never changed. It is just that India changed its official wordings.

 

[Enquirer]

Are you out of your mind? You irst say that cryogenic engines fall under MTCR but then you claim that transferring 7 engines was OK.

Dude! I never approved/disapproved of anything. I only stated things as a matter of fact - even adding my commentary on how farcical the events/justifications were!! Re-read my posts!

The 290km was only farcical as there was no physical restriction. The range was 450km and the pretension of 290km does not change anything. One looks at capability, not self imposed restrictions

How're u so sure that 290kms was a pretension? If India sold Brahmos to Vietnam, Chile etc, then all countries will just pretend that the range is only 290kms???

Russia gave MiG21 in 1970s for mass manufacture in India, then they gave assistance in developing several PSU like BHEL, BEL etc. Russia went out of its way to lease nuclear submarine to a non nuclear country India in 1987. They then offered cryogenic engines, Brahmos, Su30 etc to India.

You just skim news headlines and make up your story!
Both Brahmos and Su30 deal with India helped stabilize Russia's faltering economy! Yeltzin had personally begged Narasimha Rao to not only buy Su30s but also pay upfront so he can show 'immediate' stabilization of economy and win his reelection!!! India does get a good deal at the time of its making - but Russians have a way of recovering all the discounts by gradual fleecing!!!
What Russia offers when it's not in distress typically costs India an arm and a leg!!!
Btw...India bailed out Russia again recently by buying the all-built-up but no-Ukraine engine Frigates!!

USA will never give any ToT for highly complex items. USA always gives technology to India when their intelligence finds that India is in the last stage of developing that technology. Such cheap tactics is not called offering high end technology.

US-India defense relations are pretty new. To characterize it as this or that is quite premature!!!
Pleasing Pakistan seemed to have been US core concern for decades - that's no longer the deal!

 

[Kshithij]

How're u so sure that 290kms was a pretension? If India sold Brahmos to Vietnam, Chile etc, then all countries will just pretend that the range is only 290kms???

When did India sell anything to them? Also, how do you know that the export version of Brahmos is same as Indian one? There can be various other modification to ensure the other party will not be able to reverse engineer the missile. The fact that Russia has allowed India to modify Brahmos shows that Russia allowed india to reverse engineer it and hence the restrictions were not placed. Also, the change of range to 450km immediately after MTCR showed that the older ones were not restricted in range.

US-India defense relations are pretty new. To characterize it as this or that is quite premature!!!
Pleasing Pakistan seemed to have been US core concern for decades - that's no longer the deal!

Tell me which defence technology did India get from NATO countries till now. So, why assume that India will get anything meaningful from NATO countries ever?

You just skim news headlines and make up your story!
Both Brahmos and Su30 deal with India helped stabilize Russia's faltering economy! Yeltzin had personally begged Narasimha Rao to not only buy Su30s but also pay upfront so he can show 'immediate' stabilization of economy and win his reelection!!! India does get a good deal at the time of its making - but Russians have a way of recovering all the discounts by gradual fleecing!!!
What Russia offers when it's not in distress typically costs India an arm and a leg!!!
Btw...India bailed out Russia again recently by buying the all-built-up but no-Ukraine engine Frigates!!

The deal for Su30 ToT was placed in 2003, not in 1990s. The full ToT including engine was offered then. The ToT for MiG21 was also not done in distress. The ToT for other items like RD33 engine, K100 missile, T90 tank were not done in distress. Russia gave cryogenic engine to India against USA's wishes and only relented in giving blueprint. I would not call it as distress sale either. In fact, USA was the chief creditor of Russia and giving cryogenic engine against USA's wish was bold step.

Saying that India bailed out Russia is inappropriate.

 

[Chinmoy]

@Chinmoy Your rebuttal of @Kshithij post is worse than his mildly inaccurate post!!!


Who said only ONE test has been performed for the extended range? Even the air-launched Brahmos has been tested for beyond 400kms range (to strike at sea based target!)

Here's the official statement:
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=173744



Brahmos was based on Russian Yahkont & P-800 Onik missile's base design - each of which do have 600+ kms range! What's so absurd about the idea of limiting the fuel as a quick way to satisfy the MTCR terms?


Total gibberish!!!!

Ok......... Let me quote what is written in the report.

The air launched BrahMos missile is a 2.5 ton supersonic air to surface cruise missile with ranges of more than 400 kms.

Look at the underlined part. It specifically points towards the version. Now any air launched dumb bomb too travel on its own for a fair amount of distance. And another interesting thing is in the words choosen to write it. Let me quote the same PIB source which is there in official website of BRAHMOS.

http://www.brahmos.com/pressRelease.php?id=75

It is the same report, but it is missing this very line. You need to always keep in mind for whom and where the report is released. The report you quoted conveniently said that it does have ranges of more then 400 km, but no where it is mentioned that the missile which was tested traveled for 400 kms.

The absurd thing about limiting the fuel is that, by increasing fuel, you would be increasing the overall weight of the missile. With that weight increase and same engine, it would loose its vital strength of speed. P-800 is not as fast as BRAHMOS and onus of BRAHMOS is in its supersonic speed throughout the flight. So by saying that we would be increasing the fuel amount, you could increase the range, but would cripple it in speed.

And @binayak95 too said the same what you are terming as gibberish.

Aside @binayak95 ............... How much time and effort it would require to replace the flight computer of the missile according to you. I am sure that you might have seen the real thing in person. I am not talking about the ones in display here.

 

[Enquirer]

Ok......... Let me quote what is written in the report.



Look at the underlined part. It specifically points towards the version. Now any air launched dumb bomb too travel on its own for a fair amount of distance. And another interesting thing is in the words choosen to write it. Let me quote the same PIB source which is there in official website of BRAHMOS.

http://www.brahmos.com/pressRelease.php?id=75

It is the same report, but it is missing this very line. You need to always keep in mind for whom and where the report is released. The report you quoted conveniently said that it does have ranges of more then 400 km, but no where it is mentioned that the missile which was tested traveled for 400 kms.

The absurd thing about limiting the fuel is that, by increasing fuel, you would be increasing the overall weight of the missile. With that weight increase and same engine, it would loose its vital strength of speed. P-800 is not as fast as BRAHMOS and onus of BRAHMOS is in its supersonic speed throughout the flight. So by saying that we would be increasing the fuel amount, you could increase the range, but would cripple it in speed.

And @binayak95 too said the same what you are terming as gibberish.

Aside @binayak95 ............... How much time and effort it would require to replace the flight computer of the missile according to you. I am sure that you might have seen the real thing in person. I am not talking about the ones in display here.

You seem like a 'truther'!! Moon landing's fake, 9/11's an inside job.....&now nonsense about Brahmos!!

Air launched Brahmos by its very nature of being air launched will travel farther is BS!!!
Air launched Brahmos is made lighter by removing the 'booster'. Net net, the initial velocity when the ramjet sustainer comes into action is will be very similar in both the air launched and land/sea launched variants!!!

Not wasting my time anymore on this inane argument with you!!

 

[akk]

You seem like a 'truther'!! Moon landing's fake, 9/11's an inside job.....&now nonsense about Brahmos!!

Air launched Brahmos by its very nature of being air launched will travel farther is BS!!!
Air launched Brahmos is made lighter by removing the 'booster'. Net net, the initial velocity when the ramjet sustainer comes into action is will be very similar in both the air launched and land/sea launched variants!!!

Not wasting my time anymore on this inane argument with you!!

Dont know other bits. But moon landings were indeed fake. Please don't mix up issues. Even today, it is not technically feasible to land on moon AND return. By no country.

 

[Enquirer]

Dont know other bits. But moon landings were indeed fake. Please don't mix up issues. Even today, it is not technically feasible to land on moon AND return. By no country.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

This will be fun! Do tell why it's not technically feasible to land on moon & return???

 

[binayak95]

Ok......... Let me quote what is written in the report.



Look at the underlined part. It specifically points towards the version. Now any air launched dumb bomb too travel on its own for a fair amount of distance. And another interesting thing is in the words choosen to write it. Let me quote the same PIB source which is there in official website of BRAHMOS.

http://www.brahmos.com/pressRelease.php?id=75

It is the same report, but it is missing this very line. You need to always keep in mind for whom and where the report is released. The report you quoted conveniently said that it does have ranges of more then 400 km, but no where it is mentioned that the missile which was tested traveled for 400 kms.

The absurd thing about limiting the fuel is that, by increasing fuel, you would be increasing the overall weight of the missile. With that weight increase and same engine, it would loose its vital strength of speed. P-800 is not as fast as BRAHMOS and onus of BRAHMOS is in its supersonic speed throughout the flight. So by saying that we would be increasing the fuel amount, you could increase the range, but would cripple it in speed.

And @binayak95 too said the same what you are terming as gibberish.

Aside @binayak95 ............... How much time and effort it would require to replace the flight computer of the missile according to you. I am sure that you might have seen the real thing in person. I am not talking about the ones in display here.

No man don't have that of seeing the components of a Brahmos missile. I've heard that all new production variants have 450 km range while the validation of extension of range to 600 + km will take some time. As far as upgrading existing stocks - that is not the priority right now (present orders take precedence) but will be done in due time. Maybe - 5-6 years from now.

 

[porky_kicker]

It was 290km, same as the export version of Yakhont. It wasn't until MTCR was signed that the P800 engines were incorporated.

Original brahmos some of the fuel cells were kept empty ( compensated with necessary ballast ) and with necessary software tweaks to the missile to allow for the same ie 300km restriction.

Later after mtcr those cells were replaced with fuel filled cells and with necessary changes to the software to cater for the same ie it's original range

 

[Chinmoy]

No man don't have that of seeing the components of a Brahmos missile. I've heard that all new production variants have 450 km range while the validation of extension of range to 600 + km will take some time. As far as upgrading existing stocks - that is not the priority right now (present orders take precedence) but will be done in due time. Maybe - 5-6 years from now.

Now you are someone who talks sense rather then someone who had to bring Moon and NASA in support to discard news report and does have ZERO knowledge of ballistics.

Now when you say that all new variants are capable of 450km range, it implies that there is definitely some changes in comparison to older inducted variants. Now this change could be in form of new more efficient engine or more efficient fuel or command module.

 

[binayak95]

Now you are someone who talks sense rather then someone who had to bring Moon and NASA in support to discard news report and does have ZERO knowledge of ballistics.

Now when you say that all new variants are capable of 450km range, it implies that there is definitely some changes in comparison to older inducted variants. Now this change could be in form of new more efficient engine or more efficient fuel or command module.

No change as such except the coded limitations in the FCS have been removed. Modifications will be introduced to bring about increase in range to 600+km.