BrahMos Cruise Missile

Kranthi

New Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Messages
152
Likes
70
A shorter beahmos that sacrifices range .
Most AShMs as such have only 150km range
Not a shorter range one. Brahmos NG is going to weigh about 1.5 ton and will be smaller in size to Brahmos, yet retain the speed and range as the original missile. 300 kms at 2.8 Mach.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

captscooby81

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
Messages
7,371
Likes
27,670
Country flag
But Brahmos NG is another 7-8 years away and Brahmos 2 aka Zicron will be another 10 years away from even seeing trails ...

Not a shorter range one. Brahmos NG is going to weigh about 1.5 ton and will be smaller in size to Brahmos, yet retain the speed and range as the original missile. 300 kms at 2.8 Mach.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
New Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
Not a shorter range one. Brahmos NG is going to weigh about 1.5 ton and will be smaller in size to Brahmos, yet retain the speed and range as the original missile. 300 kms at 2.8 Mach.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Original Brahmos is 450-600km range. The 1.5ton being 300km in range is a short ranged one
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
But Brahmos NG is another 7-8 years away and Brahmos 2 aka Zicron will be another 10 years away from even seeing trails ...
More like 5-6 years AFTER the project is approved.
Brahmos NG is just a concept at this time - MoD hasn't sanctioned the project as yet!
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
New Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
Original Brahmos range was 290km to keep it under MTCR limits.
The MTCR limits was kept by underfuelling the Brahmos or simply pretending that the Brahmos has 300km range. The same Brahmos were upgraded to 450km range once MTCR hurdle was cleared
 

sthf

New Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
2,271
Likes
5,329
Country flag
Original Brahmos range was 290km to keep it under MTCR limits.
It was never 290 km. It was just that India and Russia said it was. As soon as India joined MTCR, 450 km Brahmos was tested after some "software modifications".
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
New Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
It was never 290 km. It was just that India and Russia said it was. As soon as India joined MTCR, 450 km Brahmos was tested after some "software modifications".
It was 290km, same as the export version of Yakhont. It wasn't until MTCR was signed that the P800 engines were incorporated.
 

sthf

New Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
2,271
Likes
5,329
Country flag
It was 290km, same as the export version of Yakhont. It wasn't until MTCR was signed that the P800 engines were incorporated.
1) MTCR is not enforcable.
2) Execpt Pakis nobody in the world is losing sleep that Russia has given India a longer range missile and Pakis are irrelevant.
3) India has been using Russian nuclear submarines for decades. Do you really think that a modern iteration of a 1980s missile is the line that either one wouldn't cross?
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
1) MTCR is not enforcable.
2) Execpt Pakis nobody in the world is losing sleep that Russia has given India a longer range missile and Pakis are irrelevant.
3) India has been using Russian nuclear submarines for decades. Do you really think that a modern iteration of a 1980s missile is the line that either one wouldn't cross?
Poor analysis!

Firstly MTCR has been 'enforced' several times - including being misused to block Russia's cryogenic engine tech transfer to ISRO!
Secondly, India has been 'leasing' the Russian Nuclear submarines - it's a workaround that prohibits 'sale' of the nuclear subs.
Net-net earlier Brahmos missiles must have come with some range blocking techniques (however small & trivial it might have been!)
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
New Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
Poor analysis!

Firstly MTCR has been 'enforced' several times - including being misused to block Russia's cryogenic engine tech transfer to ISRO!
Secondly, India has been 'leasing' the Russian Nuclear submarines - it's a workaround that prohibits 'sale' of the nuclear subs.
Net-net earlier Brahmos missiles must have come with some range blocking techniques (however small & trivial it might have been!)
MTCR was not enforced to block Russia supplying cryogenic engines. Russia was simply pressurised to not give blueprint as Russia was deeply in debt and USA threatened to cut down loans. Nevertheless, Russia did handover 7 cryogenic engines without blueprint which India reverse engineered and even improved for GSLV Mk3 version.

The leasing part is only a technicality. India still gets lot of access to the submarines.

Brahmos missile of the past was upgraded to 450km officially. It was stated that a software change was done. This is nothing but bogus. You don't keep software code to make it 300km. The software of Brahmos is also written by India. So, India keeping the code to limit the range to 300k is absurd.
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
MTCR was not enforced to block Russia supplying cryogenic engines. Russia was simply pressurised to not give blueprint as Russia was deeply in debt and USA threatened to cut down loans. Nevertheless, Russia did handover 7 cryogenic engines without blueprint which India reverse engineered and even improved for GSLV Mk3 version.

The leasing part is only a technicality. India still gets lot of access to the submarines.

Brahmos missile of the past was upgraded to 450km officially. It was stated that a software change was done. This is nothing but bogus. You don't keep software code to make it 300km. The software of Brahmos is also written by India. So, India keeping the code to limit the range to 300k is absurd.
As silly as it maybe, US did cite MTCR as the reason for blocking Russia's tech transfer of Cryogenic engines!

India does not violate international treaties nor violate IPRs - that's why every country wants to sell weapons to India.

Brahmos missile was supposed to have a software/hardware config that blocked the range - beyond the 'underfilling' of the fuel inside the missile to restrict the range.
Also, Brahmos only has had Indian 'guidance' software. The propulsion (hardware/software) has always been fully Russian!
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
New Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
As silly as it maybe, US did cite MTCR as the reason for blocking Russia's tech transfer of Cryogenic engines!

India does not violate international treaties nor violate IPRs - that's why every country wants to sell weapons to India.

Brahmos missile was supposed to have a software/hardware config that blocked the range - beyond the 'underfilling' of the fuel inside the missile to restrict the range.
Also, Brahmos only has had Indian 'guidance' software. The propulsion (hardware/software) has always been fully Russian!
Brahmos is a JV but with an intent of allowing India to indigenise it over time. As of now, India is capable of making it fully in India, though it still allows Russia to provide engine/motor. But, that technology has been mastered by India already and the motor import is only a strategic thing, rather than capability deficit. The propulsion is dictated by guidance and hence the range can't be controlled by software change to RAMJET engine. It was supposed to have restrictions but the enforcement is opaque. Russia trusted India and hence gave technology without restrictions.

USA did cite MTCR but that was only an official wording. Nevertheless, Russia did give cryogenic engine to India. So, MTCR was not enforced.

India does not get anything from USA in terms of technology. It s only Russia that gives ToT to India. So, the idea that India gets ToT due to strict IPR adherence is wrong.
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
Brahmos is a JV but with an intent of allowing India to indigenise it over time. As of now, India is capable of making it fully in India, though it still allows Russia to provide engine/motor. But, that technology has been mastered by India already and the motor import is only a strategic thing, rather than capability deficit. The propulsion is dictated by guidance and hence the range can't be controlled by software change to RAMJET engine. It was supposed to have restrictions but the enforcement is opaque. Russia trusted India and hence gave technology without restrictions.
Irrespective of India's current capabilities, Brahmos propulsion (which includes fuel management etc) is provided by Russia - the software/hardware controlling the fuel flow can definitely restrict range (even if India knows how to override it, it normally wouldn't as it normally tries to adhere to the all its treaties/agreements)

USA did cite MTCR but that was only an official wording. Nevertheless, Russia did give cryogenic engine to India. So, MTCR was not enforced.
"official wording" - those are the operative words (it doesn't matter what the intention behind those words were)!

It s only Russia that gives ToT to India.
Wrong! India gets ToT from several European countries!

So, the idea that India gets ToT due to strict IPR adherence is wrong.
No company will allow license productions of their products if it fears that India would steal their tech and not pay them royalties!!! OFB, BEML etc have been paying royalties to a ton of foreign companies for decades without violating the terms. That's why more companies are unafraid to transfer tech or setup shop in India!
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
Brahmos is a JV but with an intent of allowing India to indigenise it over time. As of now, India is capable of making it fully in India, though it still allows Russia to provide engine/motor. But, that technology has been mastered by India already and the motor import is only a strategic thing, rather than capability deficit. The propulsion is dictated by guidance and hence the range can't be controlled by software change to RAMJET engine. It was supposed to have restrictions but the enforcement is opaque. Russia trusted India and hence gave technology without restrictions.

USA did cite MTCR but that was only an official wording. Nevertheless, Russia did give cryogenic engine to India. So, MTCR was not enforced.

India does not get anything from USA in terms of technology. It s only Russia that gives ToT to India. So, the idea that India gets ToT due to strict IPR adherence is wrong.
First of all understand few things...........

As of now BRAHMOS is a 290 km range missile. Only one test for extended range been done so far as per media report in March 2017. But interestingly, even BRAHMOS co doesn't publish it.

http://www.brahmos.com/press-rel.php

It implies that it might or might not have been specifically tested with different engine or fuel. It is simply absurd to say that the range was limited by a half filled tank.

The range of BRAHMOS has been limited by its flight program. You simply can't program it to fly beyond 300 km range. In its current form it might fly beyond this range, but it is not something achievable overnight. With the deployed regiments and batteries, it would mean a complete overhaul of the missile. Being a cannister based missile, this gets even more complicated. Range would be increased eventually, but gradually. As of now don't expect the current lot to fly beyond 300 km.

As far as mastering RAMJET engine of BRAHMOS is concerned, India has not yet done it. Work and study is in progress.
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
@Chinmoy Your rebuttal of @Kshithij post is worse than his mildly inaccurate post!!!

First of all understand few things...........

As of now BRAHMOS is a 290 km range missile. Only one test for extended range been done so far as per media report in March 2017. But interestingly, even BRAHMOS co doesn't publish it.

http://www.brahmos.com/press-rel.php
Who said only ONE test has been performed for the extended range? Even the air-launched Brahmos has been tested for beyond 400kms range (to strike at sea based target!)

Here's the official statement:
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=173744


It implies that it might or might not have been specifically tested with different engine or fuel. It is simply absurd to say that the range was limited by a half filled tank.
Brahmos was based on Russian Yahkont & P-800 Onik missile's base design - each of which do have 600+ kms range! What's so absurd about the idea of limiting the fuel as a quick way to satisfy the MTCR terms?

The range of BRAHMOS has been limited by its flight program. You simply can't program it to fly beyond 300 km range. In its current form it might fly beyond this range, but it is not something achievable overnight. With the deployed regiments and batteries, it would mean a complete overhaul of the missile. Being a cannister based missile, this gets even more complicated. Range would be increased eventually, but gradually. As of now don't expect the current lot to fly beyond 300 km.
Total gibberish!!!!
 

binayak95

New Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
2,526
Likes
8,790
Country flag
First of all understand few things...........

As of now BRAHMOS is a 290 km range missile. Only one test for extended range been done so far as per media report in March 2017. But interestingly, even BRAHMOS co doesn't publish it.

http://www.brahmos.com/press-rel.php

It implies that it might or might not have been specifically tested with different engine or fuel. It is simply absurd to say that the range was limited by a half filled tank.

The range of BRAHMOS has been limited by its flight program. You simply can't program it to fly beyond 300 km range. In its current form it might fly beyond this range, but it is not something achievable overnight. With the deployed regiments and batteries, it would mean a complete overhaul of the missile. Being a cannister based missile, this gets even more complicated. Range would be increased eventually, but gradually. As of now don't expect the current lot to fly beyond 300 km.

As far as mastering RAMJET engine of BRAHMOS is concerned, India has not yet done it. Work and study is in progress.
The BrahMos missiles pre-MTCR membership had been hardcoded to nosedive post 300km range. That was there from the beginning. I can confirm this (bloody hell, this is public knowledge almost). Brahmos Aerospace always had the ability to remove this limitation as well. And we refrained until we joined MTCR.
Now, those limitations are being removed irrespective of what the Russians have to say.
 

aarav

जय परशुराम‍।
New Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
1,408
Likes
5,399
Country flag
Russians never helped us in Cryogenic Engine technology ,it is one of the many myth propagated by Natasha Lovers ,infact under pressure from the US ,it blocked any kind of technical assistance and now the same Russia wants us to take sides in UK chemical attack ,it is good when we abstained from the resolution by russia in OPCW ,it got the message loud and clear
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
New Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
Irrespective of India's current capabilities, Brahmos propulsion (which includes fuel management etc) is provided by Russia - the software/hardware controlling the fuel flow can definitely restrict range (even if India knows how to override it, it normally wouldn't as it normally tries to adhere to the all its treaties/agreements)
India was not part of MTCR. So, there was no agreement at all. Russia was part of MTCR but it anyways gave India Brahmos and cryogenic engines. Duh!
No company will allow license productions of their products if it fears that India would steal their tech and not pay them royalties!!! OFB, BEML etc have been paying royalties to a ton of foreign companies for decades without violating the terms. That's why more companies are unafraid to transfer tech or setup shop in India!
India does not get highly critical technology from anyone except Russia. No matter what license fee is, the technology gained will cause losses to foreign players. It is not that Saudi Arabia will be able to buy license just because they will honour IPR.

Russians never helped us in Cryogenic Engine technology ,it is one of the many myth propagated by Natasha Lovers ,infact under pressure from the US ,it blocked any kind of technical assistance and now the same Russia wants us to take sides in UK chemical attack ,it is good when we abstained from the resolution by russia in OPCW ,it got the message loud and clear
Any source?
 

Articles

Top