Boeing offers 'made in India' F 18 Super Hornets

[ashdoc]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-Dennis-A-Muilenburg/articleshow/50830104.cms

 

[ashdoc]

This is a sorely tempting offer , at least to me .

Yes , the Rafale is a more advanced aircraft . But we are going to get only 36 of them at a very huge amount of money . And that is just not enough numbers .

The F 18 is less advanced , in fact one generation behind the Rafale . But if it is made in India with cheap Indian labour , then it's already lower price will become even more lower . We will be able buy much more F 18s at the price of 36 Rafales . And at the moment we desperately need aircraft to fill up our squadrons , because the stealth fighterjet deal with Russia is close to collapse .

The F 18 super hornet is enough to deal with Pakistan's F 16s and greater number of F 18s will put up a better fight against China's Sukhois than just 36 Rafales . China's own stealth program is not fully successful with their stealth fighter not having a satisfactory engine for stealth , so we don't have to worry about that right now . F 18 can also be used on our aircraft carriers and can be bought in extra numbers by the navy just like the Rafale can be .

I say dump the Rafale in favour of the super hornet if the F 18 can be made in India .

---Ashdoc .

 

[fooLIam]

This is a sorely tempting offer , at least to me .

because the stealth fighterjet deal with Russia is close to collapse .

---Ashdoc .

No it's not if you goes by this link http://idrw.org/progress-reported-on-indian-version-of-sukhoi-t-50

S-400 will also happen it's just matter of time. One should not believe presstitude blindly.

 

[Gessler]

Now that even the IN is looking at Rafale-M for future CATOBAR carriers, there is zero market for F/A-18 in India.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Many US companies offer many things, it doesn't mean we are going to take the offer. They have been offering the Raven mini drone and the Javelin missile system since a decade now, still we chose Israeli drones and Spike missile.

The US can build F18s in India if they want, and export it to whoever they want, but India shall not be a customer.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

in fact one generation behind the Rafale .

Not at all. It is not a 3a and half generation Plane if we consider Rafale a 4++ generation one. Infact AESA on F18 shall be much more advance than anything rafale can offer. Over all rafale is a better plane but we may get 3 F18 for one rafale. The good thing is that there shall be a lots of value addition from our side and it shall be fully made in India. We can induct 6 squadrons of F 18 in place of 2 of rafale. We should tell them that they will have to make AESA and engines in India.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Not at all. It is not a 3a and half generation Plane if we consider Rafale a 4++ generation one. Infact AESA on F18 shall be much more advance than anything rafale can offer. Over all rafale is a better plane but we may get 3 F18 for one rafale. The good thing is that there shall be a lots of value addition from our side and it shall be fully made in India. We can induct 6 squadrons of F 18 in place of 2 of rafale. We should tell them that they will have to make AESA and engines in India.

Doesn't matter where the parts are manufactured, if the OME imposes an arms embargo, you are not allowed to use it even if you are building it under licence on Indian soil. They have sold us an amphibious landing craft called Jalashwa, and technically it is Indian as we have paid full price for it, but the legal document says that since the technology is a proprietary product built upon US intellectual property technology, therefore US reserves the right to stop the vessel from taking part in any operations that the US does not approve of. It also gives them the right to do an annual inspection of the vessel. Every year US soldiers come to India, board the ship and inspect whether there are any violations of the TOS.

If you buy F18 from them, are you ready to allow US soldiers to come to all Indian air-force bases to do an inspection? Are you okay if they place an embargo if they think that the equipment is being used in contravention to US terms? Doesn't matter if you manufacture it here, if they tell you to stop using it and you don't then they have a legal case to go to war with India over violation of the clause. Imagine a scenario where there is a war with Pakistan and US wants to stop us from fighting that war, the first thing they will do is impose an embargo claiming that the plane is being used against American strategic interests. If you defy them then they will send an aircraft carrier to set you straight.

Recently the US pressurized France not to sell Mistral ships to Russia, because the ship used some proprietary technology which France had acquired from NATO. The sale was eventually cancelled even though Russia had made full payment for it. That's what happens when you overlook the fine print while signing legal documents.

Besides, whatever money we give them will go into funding missionary and NGO activities and giving financial aid to Pakistan. How can we fight Pakistan if we are giving money to a country that gives money to Pakistan?

Don't use street jugaad logic when it comes to national security, just because the hardware appears to be cheap, we are losing our sovereignty to use it as we deem fit

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Doesn't matter where the parts are manufactured, if the OME imposes an arms embargo, you are not allowed to use it even if you are building it under licence on Indian soil. They have sold us an amphibious landing craft called Jalashwa, and technically it is Indian as we have paid full price for it, but the legal document says that since the technology is a proprietary product built upon US intellectual property technology, therefore US reserves the right to stop the vessel from taking part in any operations that the US does not approve of. It also gives them the right to do an annual inspection of the vessel. Every year US soldiers come to India, board the ship and inspect whether there are any violations of the TOS.

If you buy F18 from them, are you ready to allow US soldiers to come to all Indian air-force bases to do an inspection? Are you okay if they place an embargo if they think that the equipment is being used in contravention to US terms? Doesn't matter if you manufacture it here, if they tell you to stop using it and you don't then they have a legal case to go to war with India over violation of the clause. Imagine a scenario where there is a war with Pakistan and US wants to stop us from fighting that war, the first thing they will do is impose an embargo claiming that the plane is being used against American strategic interests. If you defy them then they will send an aircraft carrier to set you straight.

Recently the US pressurized France not to sell Mistral ships to Russia, because the ship used some proprietary technology which France had acquired from NATO. The sale was eventually cancelled even though Russia had made full payment for it. That's what happens when you overlook the fine print while signing legal documents.

Besides, whatever money we give them will go into funding missionary and NGO activities and giving financial aid to Pakistan. How can we fight Pakistan if we are giving money to a country that gives money to Pakistan?

Don't use street jugaad logic when it comes to national security, just because the hardware appears to be cheap, we are losing our sovereignty to use it as we deem fit

See all of your concern can be taken care in agreements. Here I am not talking about we are making it under license. Probably they will shift whole plant here. They had tried to put same condition in F414 deal but we denied and made them agree on our terms and condition. This is not an India of 20 years back. No body can afford to spoil the relationship with us. They will come here, produce hare and we shall buy. In return we may ask them to transfer crucial technology to us. Russia has offered all PAKFA technology to be transferred for just 3.7 bn USD which is a very attractive deal. Today we are well placed and we must try to exploit the favorable condition as much as possible before the situation may turn hostile to us. What we need is a bit flexibility in our policies and ability to calculate pros and cons effectively and correctly.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

See all of your concern can be taken care in agreements. Here I am not talking about we make it under license. Probably they will shift whole plant here. They had tried to put same condition in F414 deal but we denied and made them agree on our terms and condition. This is not an india of 20 years back. No body can afford to spoil the relationship with us. They will come here, produce hare and we shall buy. In return we may ask them to transfer crucial technology to us. Russia has offered all PAKFA technology to be transferred for just 3.7 bn USD which is a very attractive deal. Today we are well placed so we must try to exploit the favorable condition as much as possible before the situation turn hostile to us. What we need is a bit flexibility in our policies and ability to calculate pros and cons effectively and correctly.

Okay that sounds reasonable. Can you give me a link for the details of GE414 deal? As far as I know, we don't have the flexibility as you claim. If tomorrow we wanted to sell a Tejas with GE414 to a country which is inimical to US, wont they have any legal safeguards to stall that deal? these people never sell weapons for money, they sell it to cultivate influence and I doubt they would have given India the full freedom to do whatever we want with GE414 and to use it however we want or to sell it. My information might be outdated, maybe there was such a compromise made, is there a news reference somewhere that you can provide for it?

 

[cannonfodder]

Agreed concerns are legitimate.. we place our conditions to Boeing/US citing our concerns.

From whatevr i see, Americans are also super baniyan. Industries know how to manipulate congress and DC. They are desperate to sell if u see frm recent reports. Nothing wrong in seeing how far thy can bend 4 $$ !!

The objective is just to pit one against another by cultivating multiple options. Don't know if it fits imported air forces suppa duppa requirements though:bounce:. Whatevr happens it shld not scuttle LCA and AMCA ... thats my main concern. As I see it now, Indian RW have no appetite/will power for any conflict in near future. Pakis will keep alive proxy war. atlest build better build ind aero base by the time.

Ur doing business with US logic is flawed though... that way we won't be able make business with many western countries. The best is to improve our lobbing overseas and keep banning NGO's. Trust Parrikar to decide the best for now...:biggrin2:

Doesn't matter where the parts are manufactured, if the OME imposes an arms embargo, you are not allowed to use it even if you are building it under licence on Indian soil. They have sold us an amphibious landing craft called Jalashwa, and technically it is Indian as we have paid full price for it, but the legal document says that since the technology is a proprietary product built upon US intellectual property technology, therefore US reserves the right to stop the vessel from taking part in any operations that the US does not approve of. It also gives them the right to do an annual inspection of the vessel. Every year US soldiers come to India, board the ship and inspect whether there are any violations of the TOS.

Recently US pressurized France not to sell Mistral ships to Russia, because the ship used some proprietary technology which France had acquired from NATO. The sale was eventually cancelled even though Russia had made full payment for it. That's what happens when you overlook the fine print while signing legal documents.

If you buy F18 from them, are you ready to allow US soldiers to come to all Indian air-force bases to do an inspection? Are you okay if they place an embargo if they think that the equipment is being used in contravention to US terms? Doesn't matter if you manufacture it here, if they tell you to stop using it and you don't then they have a legal case to go to war with India over violation of the clause. Imagine a scenario where there is a war with Pakistan and US wants to stop us from fighting that war, the first thing they will do is impose an embargo claiming that the plane is being used against American strategic interests. If you defy them then they will send an aircraft carrier to set you straight.

Besides, whatever money we give them will go into funding missionary and NGO activities and giving financial aid to Pakistan. How can we fight Pakistan if we are giving money to a country that gives money to Pakistan?

Don't use street jugaad logic when it comes to national security, just because the hardware appears to be cheap, we are losing our sovereignty to use it as we deem fit

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Agreed concerns are legitimate.. we place our conditions to Boeing/US citing our concerns.

From whatevr i see, Americans are also super baniyan. Industries know how to manipulate congress and DC. They are desperate to sell if u see frm recent reports. Nothing wrong in seeing how far thy can bend 4 $$ !!

The objective is just to pit one against another by cultivating multiple options. Don't know if it fits imported air forces suppa duppa requirements though:bounce:. Whatevr happens it shld not scuttle LCA and AMCA ... thats my main concern. As I see it now, Indian RW have no appetite/will power for any conflict in near future. Pakis will keep alive proxy war. atlest build better build ind aero base by the time.

Ur doing business with US logic is flawed though... that way we won't be able make business with many western countries. The best is to improve our lobbing overseas and keep banning NGO's. Trust Parrikar to decide the best for now...:biggrin2:

If $ was the only concern then your logic holds good. I am not recommending that we impose a blanket ban on all western things, but there should be at least a cool off period after the US has imposed a sanctions on us. This is not out of anti-US hate or out of sentiment but a purely objective step which would act as a deterrent for the future and for other countries. As you know the US imposed sanctions on us after 1999, some of them are still active such that scientists can't import rare earth elements and other dual purpose things. We must pass a law that says that India shall not conduct any business with any company (not country) that imposes an embargo on us for a cool off period of at least 20 years after the embargo. This will make American weapons sellers think twice before imposing any sanctions on us as they will be debarred from doing any business with India for the next 20 years. This will make them put pressure on their government whenever they take any anti-India stance. We need a deterrent like that.

We can't have a case where they impose restrictions on us when they want, remove the restrictions when they want and we will deal with them as if everything is hunky dory. They need to know that there is a cost to pay if you antagonize India. As @HariPrasad-1 rightly said, no one can ignore India now, but that's exactly why I say, let's make them wait a little longer, if not due to a formal legislation then by informal tantrums and dramebaazi. They must know that every time they antagonize us, it adds many more years in the normalization of relations. If they sell 8 F16s to Pakistan, we should stop dealing with them for the next 5 years. Let them boil in their own juices. India's growing economic might is of no use if you don't use it as a leverage to blackmail other nations to adopt policies that are favorable to us. Even yesterday there was a news that the US wants to hyphenate the AF-Pak-India region despite Indian concerns. They have strategically kept us out of the great game that is going on in Afghanistan. Given all these things, what's the use of patronizing their commercial interests by buying their planes?

Let them know that enmity and loyalty both have their own rewards. France and Russia didn't oppose our nuke tests, they have got their reward. If US wants a piece of our market then it should behave responsibly.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Okay that sounds reasonable. Can you give me a link for the details of GE414 deal? As far as I know, we don't have the flexibility as you claim. If tomorrow we wanted to sell a Tejas with GE414 to a country which is inimical to US, wont they have any legal safeguards to stall that deal? these people never sell weapons for money, they sell it to cultivate influence and I doubt they would have given India the full freedom to do whatever we want with GE414 and to use it however we want or to sell it. My information might be outdated, maybe there was such a compromise made, is there a news reference somewhere that you can provide for it?

GE wanted us to enter into an agreement with its subsidiary and wanted to put some restriction of using the plane with their engine against some nation and some conditions of payment in case of their engine fitted plane crash in some enemy territory. We refused. Se if you want some technology , than it comes at some cost. e.g we are going to get civil nuclear technology at a cost of prohibition on Nuclear test. Not it is for us to decide whether the benefit we get is more than the cost we pay. You will not get any deal which is fully favorable to you. After all they are the giver of technology so naturally they will put some condition of their concern and we have to take care of that. Here the point is that US is not so powerful as it used to be earlier and India is not as weak s it used to be few year back. We are in a position to negotiate and strike a favorable deal we we should look at it with a positive mind frame rather than looking back at old experiences to take present decision. They should be taken with future in mind and the equation of power balance some 10 to 20 years back. That is why diplomacy is a great art. I think Mr. Modi is a master of that art. He is a very very pragmatic politician. I think he is capable of taking the best decision.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

GE wanted us to enter into an agreement with its subsidiary and wanted to put some restriction of using the plane with their engine against some nation and some conditions of payment in case of their engine fitted plane crash in some enemy territory. We refused. Se if you want some technology , than it comes at some cost. e.g we are going to get civil nuclear technology at a cost of prohibition on Nuclear test. Not it is for us to decide whether the benefit we get is more than the cost we pay. You will not get any deal which is fully favorable to you. After all they are the giver of technology so naturally they will put some condition of their concern and we have to take care of that. Here the point is that US is not so powerful as it used to be earlier and India is not as weak s it used to be few year back. We are in a position to negotiate and strike a favorable deal we we should look at it with a positive mind frame rather than looking back at old experiences.

I fully agree with what you are saying, especially about the civil nuclear deal. Is there a news article where I can read more about the GE414 deal which mentions the terms of the deal?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I fully agree with what you are saying, especially about the civil nuclear deal. Is there a news article where I can read more about the GE414 deal which mentions the terms of the deal?

No this is a news of few years back when the tender of eurojet and ge were opened and GE was chosen winner and our committee was negotiating with them.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

No this is a news of few years back when the tender of eurojet and ge were opened and GE was chosen winner and our committee was negotiating with them.

Okay, if you say so. I will try to google for it. This is extremely good news if it's true. Now, let's see where the EMALS negotiation go. I heard one strategic expert say on TV, If we have EMALS then it will expand our range of operations so wide that it will transform the vast Indian ocean into our personal backyard lake.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Okay, if you say so. I will try to google for it. This is extremely good news if it's true. Now, let's see where the EMALS negotiation go. I heard one strategic expert say on TV, If we have EMALS then it will expand our range of operations so wide that it will transform the vast Indian ocean into our personal backyard lake.

That should help us to launch the plane but what are other benefits? Very good if true.

Perhaps it may help to launch the aircraft with a greater load by giving a great boost to speed of plane for launch.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

That should help us to launch the plane but what are other benefits? Very good if true.

Perhaps it may help to launch the aircraft with a greater load by giving a great boost to speed of plane for launch.

From what I gathered, you can launch bigger planes like C130 with EMALS. This one thing in itself is such a big force multiplier because the plane is capable of carrying special forces guys and heavy electronic interception equipment or we can fly fuel tanker version KC 130. Earlier we were constrained to launch these big planes from the land which restricted our range, now if you can put them on a carrier it's like carrying full spectrum air superiority as opposed to just small fighter jets. Right now, the only way to launch ground forces from a ship is the slow choreography of landing craft or at the most helicopters with limited range.

 

[salute]

This is a sorely tempting offer , at least to me .

Yes , the Rafale is a more advanced aircraft . But we are going to get only 36 of them at a very huge amount of money . And that is just not enough numbers .

The F 18 is less advanced , in fact one generation behind the Rafale . But if it is made in India with cheap Indian labour , then it's already lower price will become even more lower . We will be able buy much more F 18s at the price of 36 Rafales . And at the moment we desperately need aircraft to fill up our squadrons , because the stealth fighterjet deal with Russia is close to collapse .

The F 18 super hornet is enough to deal with Pakistan's F 16s and greater number of F 18s will put up a better fight against China's Sukhois than just 36 Rafales . China's own stealth program is not fully successful with their stealth fighter not having a satisfactory engine for stealth , so we don't have to worry about that right now . F 18 can also be used on our aircraft carriers and can be bought in extra numbers by the navy just like the Rafale can be .

I say dump the Rafale in favour of the super hornet if the F 18 can be made in India .

---Ashdoc .

usa wants to get rid of f 18 and wants the tech which is outdated for them sale to india,

and its tempting for you,so poor bs choice,

do they think iaf is second hand air force,

or they like it to keep it that way,

instead of this, india should built it own jet with jv.

 

[sorcerer]

Lots of nations are phasing out f-18s..India shouldnt buy this..
If US thinks that India is pakistan who will buy ANY THING from USA..they are very wrong.
Hasnt the USA learned it with a lot of bounced deals?
Or
is the blonde jokes really true?

Boeing is finding it difficult to provide maintenance to nations which had already brought f-18 becasue USA has shut down support for F-18 at many levels.

Its no love for India..but checking out a place to manufacture f-18 at low cost.

 

[sorcerer]

We already have a discussion on this here

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...or-of-made-in-india-f18s-for-iaf.73056/page-2

@sayareakd @Sakal Gharelu Ustad
Merge?