Bharat's response to turk invasions.

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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As we know.

Rome came and fell Greece came and fell Sassanids came and fell Scythians, Kushans vanished Germanics, Celtics, Baltics, all gone Sumerians Mesopotamians all civilisations have been eliminated only Bharatvarsh remains. This is pinnacle of the power to stay to endure to survive.

But the fate of Persia or old Iran, which lost not only its freedom but almost the whole of its ancient glorious culture was a grave warning to India.

Nevertheless we had our share of cost and we dearly paid for it. The Sanatani resistance to turks went on for more than 8 centuries thus ensuring that the larp of complete islameisation of India remained a total failure.

Nevertheless.

The first line of defense the Dharmic King Dahir offered all the resistance till the very end quite successful to hold for multiple decades. But as we notice at the same time the central Bharat's kingdoms were still unaware to this grave danger.

1653192330205.png


This thread is to discuss the responses of BHARATVARSH against turk invasions. I am quoting from Al Hind.

Must note medieval turkic empires were built on horse warrior economies in a very militarized society.

1653192424726.png



Basically nomads like turks used horses for everything (meat, fat, milk, hide, carriage, transport etc). Every male on was trained as a horse archer from age of 3-4 yrs old. This meant they always had an elite cavalry ready by mere virtue of existing.

1653192492566.png


Al-jahiz notes average turk would spend more time on horseback in his life than on foot.

1653192532338.png


The mastery of turks as horse archers was admitted by the Arabs and Persians too. They could shoot 6 arrows in 60 seconds on horseback.

1653192571156.png


We see a general pattern is being established now. What was the status of horses & cavalry in BHARATVARSH?

BHARTIYA had been using horses for a long time. They made a "science of horses" to classify them based on anatomy, breed, age etc. aśvaśāstra-s


1653192624837.png

1653193526465.png


In BHARAT heavy cavalry mounted shock combat never took that much hold due to the role of elephants as formation breakers.
We had light 1-handed lances. The other flaw was horse-mounted archery was never developed to that extent. Archery was left to the infantry.
1653193577669.png

1653193585082.png


China also lacked in this regards.

Finally much of turks had developed an army core of heavy cavalry + light cavalry archer flanks. These armies were more mobile than any infantry and could carry out decisive quick charges on the battlefield that rendered the elephants a bit of immobile.

1653193905615.png


So as you noted this and the complete lack of Shatrubodh wrt islam is the reason such calamity overwhelmed BHARATVARSH and despite all of our losses we have survived. Thats precisely due to tremendous unbeatable cultural complexity.

One last point I had like to make.

We have no record of the moslems raids in Hindu literature.

Thus, we can hardly expect it to be a true and impartial account of the prolonged conflict.


Thread is now open for discussion in this regards.

@Lonewolf @Vamsi @Tactical Doge @Love Charger @Knowitall @Bhumihar @SavageKing456 @Indrajit @ezsasa @Ayushraj @indus @Cheran @SKC @here2where @another_armchair
 

Love Charger

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As we know.

Rome came and fell Greece came and fell Sassanids came and fell Scythians, Kushans vanished Germanics, Celtics, Baltics, all gone Sumerians Mesopotamians all civilisations have been eliminated only Bharatvarsh remains. This is pinnacle of the power to stay to endure to survive.

But the fate of Persia or old Iran, which lost not only its freedom but almost the whole of its ancient glorious culture was a grave warning to India.

Nevertheless we had our share of cost and we dearly paid for it. The Sanatani resistance to turks went on for more than 8 centuries thus ensuring that the larp of complete islameisation of India remained a total failure.

Nevertheless.

The first line of defense the Dharmic King Dahir offered all the resistance till the very end quite successful to hold for multiple decades. But as we notice at the same time the central Bharat's kingdoms were still unaware to this grave danger.

View attachment 156999

This thread is to discuss the responses of BHARATVARSH against turk invasions. I am quoting from Al Hind.

Must note medieval turkic empires were built on horse warrior economies in a very militarized society.

View attachment 157000


Basically nomads like turks used horses for everything (meat, fat, milk, hide, carriage, transport etc). Every male on was trained as a horse archer from age of 3-4 yrs old. This meant they always had an elite cavalry ready by mere virtue of existing.

View attachment 157003

Al-jahiz notes average turk would spend more time on horseback in his life than on foot.

View attachment 157005

The mastery of turks as horse archers was admitted by the Arabs and Persians too. They could shoot 6 arrows in 60 seconds on horseback.

View attachment 157006

We see a general pattern is being established now. What was the status of horses & cavalry in BHARATVARSH?

BHARTIYA had been using horses for a long time. They made a "science of horses" to classify them based on anatomy, breed, age etc. aśvaśāstra-s


View attachment 157007
View attachment 157020

In BHARAT heavy cavalry mounted shock combat never took that much hold due to the role of elephants as formation breakers.
We had light 1-handed lances. The other flaw was horse-mounted archery was never developed to that extent. Archery was left to the infantry.
View attachment 157021
View attachment 157022

China also lacked in this regards.

Finally much of turks had developed an army core of heavy cavalry + light cavalry archer flanks. These armies were more mobile than any infantry and could carry out decisive quick charges on the battlefield that rendered the elephants a bit of immobile.

View attachment 157025

So as you noted this and the complete lack of Shatrubodh wrt islam is the reason such calamity overwhelmed BHARATVARSH and despite all of our losses we have survived. Thats precisely due to tremendous unbeatable cultural complexity.

One last point I had like to make.

We have no record of the moslems raids in Hindu literature.

Thus, we can hardly expect it to be a true and impartial account of the prolonged conflict.


Thread is now open for discussion in this regards.

@Lonewolf @Vamsi @Tactical Doge @Love Charger @Knowitall @Bhumihar @SavageKing456 @Indrajit @ezsasa @Ayushraj @indus @Cheran @SKC @here2where @another_armchair
Ati uttam bhai ji
 

Tactical Doge

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@asaffronladoftherisingsun
If Science of horses is written and practiced in India from ancient era itself

Why the Indian Cavalry fell short during Medieval times
Developing and improving upon pre existing traditions would be a logical conclusion no?


Also, as literally no deterrent existed for horse mounted archers until gunpowder combat became mainstream, why the Indian martial communities, across the length and breadth, (I'm not generalising here) considered the gun as not a honorable weapon
 

Love Charger

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@asaffronladoftherisingsun
If Science of horses is written and practiced in India from ancient era itself

Why the Indian Cavalry fell short during Medieval times
Developing and improving upon pre existing traditions would be a logical conclusion no?


Also, as literally no deterrent existed for horse mounted archers until gunpowder combat became mainstream, why the Indian martial communities, across the length and breadth, (I'm not generalising here) considered the gun as not a honorable weapon
Chutiyapa aur kya , only marathas stood apart .
Unko bas jeetne se matlab tha , no matter how also in ancient times magadh armies were known to throw dead bodies inside enemy forts and poison water sources of enemies.
 

tommy

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@asaffronladoftherisingsun
If Science of horses is written and practiced in India from ancient era itself

Why the Indian Cavalry fell short during Medieval times
Developing and improving upon pre existing traditions would be a logical conclusion no?


Also, as literally no deterrent existed for horse mounted archers until gunpowder combat became mainstream, why the Indian martial communities, across the length and breadth, (I'm not generalising here) considered the gun as not a honorable weapon
Indian Cavalry in the sense horse archers were lacking in Indian kingdoms. I don't think entire horse cavalry was bad.
There were multiple reasons"
1. We did not have horse archers as we did not have composite bows. We did not have composite bows as they need animal materials. No explanation further needed why we did not experiment in this direction.
2. Over that Mongols/turkics did not consider feigned retreat as some kind of disrespect and it was common for them to do a tactical retreat. On the other hand we know the attitudes of Indians.

Now coming to the assertion to developing and improving upon pre existing traditions is considered, I am skeptical about this. I feel Indians are very reluctant to change. We are mostly status quoist.
 

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Why the Indian Cavalry fell short during Medieval times
Developing and improving upon pre existing traditions would be a logical conclusion no?
Ask Chinese they have answered in this regards.

China was also overrun by the sakas hunas. Note the same hunas invaded Northwest BHARAT they were repulsed by the Guptas. Should note that Huns were fierce horsemen and skilled archers they also rekt China.
Hunas also played good role in fall of roman empire.

But unlike the romans and sassanians the great Guptas never submitted nor lost. Chandragupta 2 Kumaragupta and Skandagupta won major wars against many unnamed huna barbarians and because of which eventually led to BHARTIYA-isation of Hunas. Because BHARAT's kingdom were exceptionally strong and militarily unified.

One reason why good quality pasture land wasn't available was bc sedentary agriculture occupied most good land.

1653197219909.png

1653197225241.png


Your answer lies in the fate of song dynasty of china that was a huge bureaucratic empire that collapsed to horse warriors. The choice between using land for horses grazing or feeding the big population.

1653197581232.png
 

Love Charger

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Indian Cavalry in the sense horse archers were lacking in Indian kingdoms. I don't think entire horse cavalry was bad.
There were multiple reasons"
1. We did not have horse archers as we did not have composite bows. We did not have composite bows as they need animal materials. No explanation further needed why we did not experiment in this direction.
2. Over that Mongols/turkics did not consider feigned retreat as some kind of disrespect and it was common for them to do a tactical retreat. On the other hand we know the attitudes of Indians.

Now coming to the assertion to developing and improving upon pre existing traditions is considered, I am skeptical about this. I feel Indians are very reluctant to change. We are mostly status quoist.
Kekekeke Aurangzeb is said to have commented on this aspect of Indians.
He said that Indians or Hindustanis were fools, who fought till death even as a part of mughal army .
While turkoman uzbeg etc generally retreated
 

asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Indian Cavalry in the sense horse archers were lacking in Indian kingdoms. I don't think entire horse cavalry was bad.
There were multiple reasons"
1. We did not have horse archers as we did not have composite bows. We did not have composite bows as they need animal materials. No explanation further needed why we did not experiment in this direction.
2. Over that Mongols/turkics did not consider feigned retreat as some kind of disrespect and it was common for them to do a tactical retreat. On the other hand we know the attitudes of Indians.

Now coming to the assertion to developing and improving upon pre existing traditions is considered, I am skeptical about this. I feel Indians are very reluctant to change. We are mostly status quoist.
Do note how byzantine provinces of Palestine and Syria fell to them after a six month’s campaign in ad 636-637. Next came the turn of the Sassanid empire of Persia which included Iraq, Iran, and Khorasan. The Persians were defeated decisively in ad 637, and their entire empire was overrun in the next few years.

Then you have turk speaking territories of Inner Mongolia, Bukhara, Tashkand, and Samarkand, etc. were annexed by ad 650. Meanwhile, in the west, the province of Egypt had fallen in ad 640-641. Then you got arabfags armies marched over North Africa till they reached the Atlantic and crossed over into Spain in ad 709.

At the same time BHARAT's Sanatanis gave those invaders buttseks of the lifetime for full 7 decades.
 
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asaffronladoftherisingsun

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Kekekeke Aurangzeb is said to have commented on this aspect of Indians.
He said that Indians or Hindustanis were fools, who fought till death even as a part of mughal army .
While turkoman uzbeg etc generally retreated
The fact that akbar could never capture 300sqkm of landlocked region of Mewar ;)
The fact that aurangzeb bankrupted entire of mooghal empire chasing Shivaji ;)
Even Rana Raj Singh Mewar shiets on aurangzeb.
1653198811105.png

The resistance never ended at any point in history of Bharatvarsh.
 

Love Charger

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The fact that akbar could never capture 300sqkm of landlocked region of Mewar ;)
The fact that aurangzeb bankrupted entire of mooghal empire chasing Shivaji ;)
Even Rana Raj Singh Mewar shiets on aurangzeb.
View attachment 157040
The resistance never ended at any point in history of Bharatvarsh.
Book konsi hai bhai , ye to batao
 

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@asaffronladoftherisingsun
If Science of horses is written and practiced in India from ancient era itself

Why the Indian Cavalry fell short during Medieval times
Developing and improving upon pre existing traditions would be a logical conclusion no?


Also, as literally no deterrent existed for horse mounted archers until gunpowder combat became mainstream, why the Indian martial communities, across the length and breadth, (I'm not generalising here) considered the gun as not a honorable weapon
1. Limited number of horses.

The high availability of Oxes meant they were the dominant means of transport.

It's always about what is available cheap and is easier to use.

2. Also Life in general was easier due to availability of food resources in comparison to the region Turks were living.

The availability of high amount of grains storage etc and easy money due to trade was enough for easy life.

3. We lacked a scientific research and approach towards modern weapons a legacy we still carry.

While Jai Samhita ( Maha Bharat) and other literature mention about different weapon most of them were only considered Divine weapons and not something which a human can possess .

4. Also indulgence towards Karmakanda and not Yoga ( worshipping own body and uniting it with mind) which is the first step of Dharma among high class meant lack of mental well-being and intelligence . The era of Kautilya and his intelligence was one thing and then we saw later how we couldnt see the common enemy and destroy it for centuries and it's still going on...

5. Majority of population was indulged in agriculture and other hand held jobs in textiles metal etc. The caste system kept a huge population unarmed or infighting among each other and unable to defend themselves or join army when needed.


This is my understanding.
 

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