Astra BVRAAM

johnj

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Pl-15 I a match to astra mk2 as it falls same category
Mk3 is class apart
Common sense
Mk2 matches with pl-15 wrt range also
Mk3 will be of meteor class
P15 & astra mk2 not same, and astra can't match p15 range or nez. astra mk2 similar to aim 120d.
Both astra mk2 & aim 120d better than pl15e[with aesa seeker] but can't match pl15. Pl 15 heavier & big compared to akash & aim120 & developed to counter meteor.
 

jai jaganath

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P15 & astra mk2 not same, and astra can't match p15 range or nez. astra mk2 similar to aim 120d.
Both astra mk2 & aim 120d better than pl15e[with aesa seeker] but can't match pl15. Pl 15 heavier & big compared to akash & aim120 & developed to counter meteor.
Those numbers are completely false bro regarding pl-15
Yeah range might be more than mk2 but only by 20-30km max
Export variant has range of 145km
 

johnj

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Those numbers are completely false bro regarding pl-15
Yeah range might be more than mk2 but only by 20-30km max
Export variant has range of 145km
Which nos ?
Pl 15 developed to match meteor, and better than aim120d [range/nez], and USAF & USN urgently developing new aam to counter pl15.
Unknown - astra mk2 range/nez/specs etc & same goes to pl15.
USA/Japan etc r&d ing new aam to counter pl15 including future meteor.
Chinese rocket propulsion and seeker tech are best [thanks to industrial base/theft/espionage/buying etc] but they lack behind algorithms/software, but they are catching up very fast.
Export version is a highly downgraded version. Pl 15 is second best aam after meteor with best seeker, similar range and less nez - considering US and its allies, UK/USA/Japan started new aam to match/counter pl15.
Chinese ramjet tech sucks, hence they r&d aam using best tech developed by them, and pl15 developed using aesa & rocket motor, techs which is familiar to them.
 

jai jaganath

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Which nos ?
Pl 15 developed to match meteor, and better than aim120d [range/nez], and USAF & USN urgently developing new aam to counter pl15.
Unknown - astra mk2 range/nez/specs etc & same goes to pl15.
USA/Japan etc r&d ing new aam to counter pl15 including future meteor.
Chinese rocket propulsion and seeker tech are best [thanks to industrial base/theft/espionage/buying etc] but they lack behind algorithms/software, but they are catching up very fast.
Export version is a highly downgraded version. Pl 15 is second best aam after meteor with best seeker, similar range and less nez - considering US and its allies, UK/USA/Japan started new aam to match/counter pl15.
Chinese ramjet tech sucks, hence they r&d aam using best tech developed by them, and pl15 developed using aesa & rocket motor, techs which is familiar to them.
Ir can't be close to meteor or mk3 as its dual pulse rocket motor has disadvantages against ramjet
It can increase range but can't be effective like ramjet missiles
As I said range is not everything definitely pl-15 will be 20-30km more than mk2
If export variant is 145km then their missile could be of 180-190 km according to some estimates
Mk2 will have range of 160km
Mk1 itself have range of 110km single pulse
 

jai jaganath

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Which nos ?
Pl 15 developed to match meteor, and better than aim120d [range/nez], and USAF & USN urgently developing new aam to counter pl15.
Unknown - astra mk2 range/nez/specs etc & same goes to pl15.
USA/Japan etc r&d ing new aam to counter pl15 including future meteor.
Chinese rocket propulsion and seeker tech are best [thanks to industrial base/theft/espionage/buying etc] but they lack behind algorithms/software, but they are catching up very fast.
Export version is a highly downgraded version. Pl 15 is second best aam after meteor with best seeker, similar range and less nez - considering US and its allies, UK/USA/Japan started new aam to match/counter pl15.
Chinese ramjet tech sucks, hence they r&d aam using best tech developed by them, and pl15 developed using aesa & rocket motor, techs which is familiar to them.
Range
 

johnj

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Ir can't be close to meteor or mk3 as its dual pulse rocket motor has disadvantages against ramjet
It can increase range but can't be effective like ramjet missiles
As I said range is not everything definitely pl-15 will be 20-30km more than mk2
If export variant is 145km then their missile could be of 180-190 km according to some estimates
Mk2 will have range of 160km
Mk1 itself have range of 110km single pulse
Size does matters. Ramjet need motor to kick start. Meteor having extra weight due to integrated motor and propellant and mk2 don't having any extra weight, same goes to d & pl15.
The exact range of meteor, aim 120 d, pl15 unknown. In the case of pl15, its bigger, not hypersonic, using aesa tech, and having long range. Chinese says second best aam by nez after meteor. US believe pl15 superior to aim d. Even in your theory pl15 range come close to 200 km. Since pl15 developed to counter meteor, sites copy & paste meteor range into pl15 spec. Range will be less than meteor, but greater than both aim 120 d & astra mk2. Mk2 range around 160km, or greater, but lesser than pl15 and less weight compared to pl15.
pl15 not like pl10, which is similar to aim 120c, range around 110 km, means its entirely new missile unlike aim 120d.
 

Chinmoy

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Wait, I must be blind because I see absolutely no physical difference between Mk1 and Mk2 ? I initially thought Mk2 must be thicker and longer (that's what she said), but after a side-by-side comparison between Mk1 and Mk2 launches, they have practically identical bodies.

But that means Mk2 might only have a marginal improvement in range due to improved rocket propulsion.
Why you think it would be anydifferent?

Just compare Derby and Deby-ER. Both are dimensionally same with only the difference in propulsion.
 

mist_consecutive

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Why you think it would be anydifferent?

Just compare Derby and Deby-ER. Both are dimensionally same with only the difference in propulsion.
The touted range of 160km for Mk-2 is almost a 50% increase over the previous range. This range increase is too ambitious to achieve (in my opinion) just by improving rocket propulsion, without increasing the actual fuel content.

Second, Astra is by far the only new-gen. BVR with such a high surface area fins. The central support fins are actually massive and should contribute to significant drag at supersonic speeds. Not only those massive fins will cause more drag, but will make the missile lose energy faster at an endgame chase, where sharp turns will cause those massive fins to act like giant airbrakes.

Overall, the initial render of Astra Mk-2 with frontal canard fins would have been the predicted design choice.

 

Chinmoy

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The touted range of 160km for Mk-2 is almost a 50% increase over the previous range. This range increase is too ambitious to achieve (in my opinion) just by improving rocket propulsion, without increasing the actual fuel content.

Second, Astra is by far the only new-gen. BVR with such a high surface area fins. The central support fins are actually massive and should contribute to significant drag at supersonic speeds. Not only those massive fins will cause more drag, but will make the missile lose energy faster at an endgame chase, where sharp turns will cause those massive fins to act like giant airbrakes.

Overall, the initial render of Astra Mk-2 with frontal canard fins would have been the predicted design choice.

Max range of Astra Mk-1 = 110 km
Max range of Astra Mk-2 = 160 km (not official)

Change in % = 45%

In case of Derby.
Max range of Derby = 50 km
Max range of Derby-ER = 100 km

Change in % = 50%

So you could see that the result of using dual pulse rocket motor is same in both case. Dual pulse rocket is used for the specific purpose to get maximum thrust during the endgame. Now if you think Mk-2 with its wings will not be effective in end game maneuvers, then it means Mk-1 is much more ineffective.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Does anyone has idea why don't we use the smokeless propellant developed for Astra into SAMs like Akash-NG or QRSAM?
 

Tiwariji

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The touted range of 160km for Mk-2 is almost a 50% increase over the previous range. This range increase is too ambitious to achieve (in my opinion) just by improving rocket propulsion, without increasing the actual fuel content.

Second, Astra is by far the only new-gen. BVR with such a high surface area fins. The central support fins are actually massive and should contribute to significant drag at supersonic speeds. Not only those massive fins will cause more drag, but will make the missile lose energy faster at an endgame chase, where sharp turns will cause those massive fins to act like giant airbrakes.

Overall, the initial render of Astra Mk-2 with frontal canard fins would have been the predicted design choice.

Derby range is approx 50km while dual pulse derby ER range 100km plus . They are identical in shape and size . Its due to optimal thrust control due to dual pulse .
 

karn

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Max range of Astra Mk-1 = 110 km
Max range of Astra Mk-2 = 160 km (not official)

Change in % = 45%

In case of Derby.
Max range of Derby = 50 km
Max range of Derby-ER = 100 km

Change in % = 50%

So you could see that the result of using dual pulse rocket motor is same in both case. Dual pulse rocket is used for the specific purpose to get maximum thrust during the endgame. Now if you think Mk-2 with its wings will not be effective in end game maneuvers, then it means Mk-1 is much more ineffective.
50 to 100 is a 100% increase.. This actually makes your argument stronger.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Derby range is approx 50km while dual pulse derby ER range 100km plus . They are identical in shape and size . Its due to optimal thrust control due to dual pulse .
I would like to add due to dual pulse rocket motor less energy is wasted during initial rocket burn.
 

mist_consecutive

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Max range of Astra Mk-1 = 110 km
Max range of Astra Mk-2 = 160 km (not official)

Change in % = 45%

In case of Derby.
Max range of Derby = 50 km
Max range of Derby-ER = 100 km

Change in % = 50%

So you could see that the result of using dual pulse rocket motor is same in both case. Dual pulse rocket is used for the specific purpose to get maximum thrust during the endgame.
Hmm, that makes sense. Any studies/explanations which show how dual-pulse rocket motor increases range significantly ?

Now if you think Mk-2 with its wings will not be effective in end game maneuvers, then it means Mk-1 is much more ineffective.
Yes, it will be more maneuverable but will lose energy faster.

I would like to add due to dual pulse rocket motor less energy is wasted during initial rocket burn.
Explain.
 

jai jaganath

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Size does matters. Ramjet need motor to kick start. Meteor having extra weight due to integrated motor and propellant and mk2 don't having any extra weight, same goes to d & pl15.
The exact range of meteor, aim 120 d, pl15 unknown. In the case of pl15, its bigger, not hypersonic, using aesa tech, and having long range. Chinese says second best aam by nez after meteor. US believe pl15 superior to aim d. Even in your theory pl15 range come close to 200 km. Since pl15 developed to counter meteor, sites copy & paste meteor range into pl15 spec. Range will be less than meteor, but greater than both aim 120 d & astra mk2. Mk2 range around 160km, or greater, but lesser than pl15 and less weight compared to pl15.
pl15 not like pl10, which is similar to aim 120c, range around 110 km, means its entirely new missile unlike aim 120d.
Anyway +-30-40km I not that significant
Mk2 and pl-15 fall in same category
 

karn

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Hmm, that makes sense. Any studies/explanations which show how dual-pulse rocket motor increases range significantly ?
If you are considering only pure straight line range from the highest altitude possible.
-In single pulse the missile climbs to its highest possible altitude and accelerates to its highest velocity. Now despite the rocket motor burning there is no increase in velocity but no deceleration either. After the motor burns out the missile coasts to the ground.
- In dual pulse . The first pulse takes the missile to its highest altitude and velocity and burns out . It then coasts in the thin air until it start losing velocity + altitude. When the missile starts reaching a bit more denser air the 2nd pulse fires and takes the missile to the highest altitude again and finally coasts to the ground after the rocket motor burns out .. the flight profile in the 2nd case is more efficient.. it's like a car where you put max acceleration all the time will have bad mileage.
This is purely academic of couse since in its actual usage the objective is to have the missile have more energy to maneuver to its target
 

Chinmoy

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Hmm, that makes sense. Any studies/explanations which show how dual-pulse rocket motor increases range significantly ?



Yes, it will be more maneuverable but will lose energy faster.
Lots of research paper are available on it. But let me lay out the bare simple fact here.

Rocket motors could be divided broadly into two types. One with high specific impulse which would give you huge thrust in very short duration. Second is low specific impulse which would give you comparatively low thrust for a longer duration.

In a single motor rocket engine, you could have any one of this. Although a compound thrust motor could be designed, but its too complex and generally avoided for dual pulse one. So in case of Mk-1, once the rocket motor starts burning, it can't be stopped. So in this case, after the missile achieve the desired altitude and starts descending towards the target, the rocket motor still keeps on burning. So it would have to perform the end maneuvers with what is remaining of its fuel. So basically we are wasting precious fuel here.

Now in case of a dual pulse rocket, we do use separators in between two rocket motors. The first motor is basically of high specific impulse which provides huge thrust to the missile and helps it to attain altitude quickly. After that it gets cut off and the missile basically coasts towards its target. So we are not burning any fuel during this time although we are maintaining the speed all because of the KE achieved earlier on. The second motor is for sustenance which kicks on after a specific time and it helps the missile to sustain its motion during the end game.
 

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