Small arms and Light Weapons

[shuvo@y2k10]

CAPFs are standarizing on AK pattern rifles calibered on 7.62*39 mm. TAR is getting more and more standardized. They want Insas replaced. Reason given by them is lack of sufficient penetration power of 5.56 *45 mm round. They do keep a few old SLRs fitted with scopes for DMR roles. PSGs inducted were very few.

Hence, I advocate that OFT should develop a RPK style squad automatic weapon based on TAR platform for section level calibered on 7.62*39 mm round. This will reduce the ammunition logistic issue. This will weight around 4.5-5 kg, with a heavier and longer barrel, which is still half of a standard 7.62*51 mm GPMG.

For example Arsenal RPK derivative

 

[Killbot]

The adjustable gas block was implemented on Insas MK1C, which passed the army trials in 2015. It was stated to be the future primary assault rifle of IA. However, it was passed over due to the change in caliber requirement to 7.62*51 mm.

Rumour has it that the new DRDO/OFB carbine displayed in Defence expo 2020 is internally same as Insas MK1C. It also has shorter barrel, though the length couldn't be ascertained based on the pictures.
Amidextrous fire selector : probably not

View attachment 73069

It does have ambi fire selector Look closely above the dude's hand. That is the right side of the gun, which means the safety selector is for a lefty. Which means that there is already one on the left side as well, as you would have a switch for a righty by default.

A proper collapsible stock, full length handguard and ambi charging handle should be next step. And stanag magazine compatibility with the paddle bolt catch/release. Then we have a solid platform.

They can try something new like AKV-521 with separate upper and lower. Or just work on the existing MCIWS platform, use an INSAS style LSP instead of SSP, for ease of designing. This thing OFB is doing, using AK operating system for everything from carbine to PDW to rifle is going to get them nowhere after another 10 years.

 

[Johny_Baba]

The adjustable gas block was implemented on Insas MK1C, which passed the army trials in 2015. It was stated to be the future primary assault rifle of IA. However, it was passed over due to the change in caliber requirement to 7.62*51 mm.

Rumour has it that the new DRDO/OFB carbine displayed in Defence expo 2020 is internally same as Insas MK1C. It also has shorter barrel, though the length couldn't be ascertained based on the pictures.
Amidextrous fire selector : probably not

View attachment 73069

? I dunno how you made this assessment but sorry to say you're wrong.
Mk.1C was just another iteration of INSAS excalibur, this time in milled receiver version and no it didn't have adjustable gas block on it, in fact after 1B version all AK chhap firearms made under INSAS line have no gas regulators on them (except perhaps AAR but hard to say if it belongs to INSAS line or not).

Also this new OFB carbine is a new product coming outta OFB entirely as perhaps it's the second time (after JVPC) they used two-section receiver on INSAS line; Mk.1C was just like a regular milled AK//INSAS with single section receiver and hinged top cover on it.

 

[Killbot]

? I dunno how you made this assessment but sorry to say you're wrong.
Mk.1C was just another iteration of INSAS excalibur, this time in milled receiver version and no it didn't have adjustable gas block on it, in fact after 1B version all AK chhap firearms made under INSAS line have no gas regulators on them (except perhaps AAR but hard to say if it belongs to INSAS line or not).

Also this new OFB carbine is a new product coming outta OFB entirely as perhaps it's the second time (after JVPC) they used two-section receiver on INSAS line; Mk.1C was just like a regular milled AK//INSAS with single section receiver and hinged top cover on it.
Why was the regulator removed though?

Can you make a detailed schematic of the OFB carbine, if it isn't too much trouble? Seems pretty promising. An ambidextrous charging handle should be easy enough to add.

Also, what is the barrel length? I compared it with Amogh carbine, and this one seems a tad shorter, so maybe 12.5"? That's pretty good. A few external modifications and it should be good to go. A bolt catch can be added for the heck of it as well.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Royal Marines standard issue weapon is colt c8. This weapon comes close to it

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I dunno how you made this assessment but sorry to say you're wrong.
Mk.1C was just another iteration of INSAS excalibur, this time in milled receiver version and no it didn't have adjustable gas block on it, in fact after 1B version all AK chhap firearms made under INSAS line have no gas regulators on them (except perhaps AAR but hard to say if it belongs to INSAS line or not).

Since pictures of MK1C on the internet tends to be hazy, my assesment was formed based on the tender issued by RFI in 2016-17 for 5.56 mm Insas.

One of the component required was Gas regulator 2689/296.

http://www.rfi.nic.in/doc/TENTATIVE_REQUIREMENT_OF_RFI_FOR_ITEMS_FOR_2016-17.pdf

 

[Johny_Baba]

Since pictures of MK1C on the internet tends to be hazy, my assesment was formed based on the tender issued by RFI in 2016-17 for 5.56 mm Insas.

One of the component required was Gas regulator 2689/296.

http://www.rfi.nic.in/doc/TENTATIVE_REQUIREMENT_OF_RFI_FOR_ITEMS_FOR_2016-17.pdf

It's ok, besides some of the best pics were posted here on DFI by our own @Kunal Biswas dada in a thread,
hope pics' hyperlinks aren't broken

INSAS Excalibur In Person

Excalibur muscle for Bengal police Kolkata: Police forces from several states, including West Bengal, have turned to Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) to modernise their armoury. While West Bengal has placed orders for 292 Excalibur rifles, 500 pistols (9mm) and 66 pump-action guns, RFI will supply...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Flying Dagger]

Royal Marines standard issue weapon is colt c8. This weapon comes close to it

M 16 derivative it is.

I think Indian army will also pick AR derivative for carbine role instead of any Ak derivative.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Can you make a detailed schematic of the OFB carbine, if it isn't too much trouble? Seems pretty promising. An ambidextrous charging handle should be easy enough to add.

Also, what is the barrel length? I compared it with Amogh carbine, and this one seems a tad shorter, so maybe 12.5"? That's pretty good. A few external modifications and it should be good to go. A bolt catch can be added for the heck of it as well.
View attachment 73082

If you're well versed with AK fundamentals then it is just another AK but of SIG SG540//SG550 flavour (i.e. with two-section pinnned receiver).

 

[Killbot]

If you're well versed with AK fundamentals then it is just another AK but of SIG SG540//SG550 flavour (i.e. with two-section pinnned receiver).

View attachment 73138

View attachment 73139

Figured as much.. Thanks. This has some potential imo. A full length tricked out version of this would be a good alternative to AK-203 joke. Also, why use 45 degree gas block? Wouldn't 90 degree one be better? And again, why was the regulator removed? Imo, a Sig 553 style gas block would be best for this gun..

 

[Johny_Baba]

Figured as much.. Thanks. This has some potential imo. A full length tricked out version of this would be a good alternative to AK-203 joke. Also, why use 45 degree gas block? Wouldn't 90 degree one be better? And again, why was the regulator removed? Imo, a Sig 553 style gas block would be best for this gun..

Well Soviets had to switch to 90 deg gas blocks from 45 deg ones when they were developing AK-74 because the thin jacket of 5.45x39mm would show wear and tear due to eliptical gas port cut in barrel, if it's made straight then cut of the hole would be circular and less ;edge; to wear metal jacket; later they just standardised it across all AKs for ease of manufacturing. BUT it had its own disadvantage as well, mainly in cleaning as with a vertical gas port it becomes difficult to clean carbon accumulation in it while with angled port you can still run a wire gauge through it, something like this

Still there were some manufacturers who made 45 degree gas block-ed AKs e.g. Romanians,their Pm.Md.86 in 5.45x39mm has 45 degree angled gas block BUT opening upto some milimeters inside gas port is vertical in it then it gets angled afterwards, solving both issues of jacket wear and making it easier to clean.

Now you see why Russians added a removable gas plug on its gas block (No it's not a gas regulator,even Larry Vickers was mistaken about it in certain vdo where he called it 'Two-Position Gas Regulator'), because <a> gas tube on AK-12 is non-removable,fixed on receiver itself and <b> it has vertical port so even if tube is removed it would have been difficult to clean through it,hence adding a removable plug so one can clean it.

^Now coming back to OFB's apprach i don't find any issue with 45 degree angled block (despite it's directly taken from INSAS Excalibur rifle so yeah) based on factors above, it's just simplified-yet-working approach.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Figured as much.. Thanks. This has some potential imo. A full length tricked out version of this would be a good alternative to AK-203 joke. Also, why use 45 degree gas block? Wouldn't 90 degree one be better? And again, why was the regulator removed? Imo, a Sig 553 style gas block would be best for this gun..

The only possible way to end the deal is to give away the Amethi factory for manufacturing of carbines right away but that's also a few year away.

Another option is TAR which will be manufactured by Trichy or Another OFB rifle R2 which again will have same issue. SSS defence Ak derivative could be manufactured there.

Political factor is what keeping Ak deal alive for so long.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Honestly this really was inspired by CAA micro roni I guess!!!! Definitely getting that vibe.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Honestly this really was inspired by CAA micro roni I guess!!!! Definitely getting that vibe.
View attachment 73650

Source?

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Source?

No source, just look at the design of this PDW and Roni and compare it. It's heavily influenced by CAA micro roni for sure.

 

[MisraZ]

No source, just look at the design of this PDW and Roni and compare it. It's heavily influenced by CAA micro roni for sure.

Hmm...true. now this will directly compete with micro Uzi/ mp9

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Myanmar started building Type 97 rifles indegenously from China.

 

[Gessler]

No source, just look at the design of this PDW and Roni and compare it. It's heavily influenced by CAA micro roni for sure.

Roni isn't a firearm, its just a carbine conversion kit for Glock pistols.

ASMI on the other hand is an automatic firearm with what seems like blowback-operated system (not sure about that bit). It's in the league of B&T MP9.

 

[Pig benis on sushy]

Any thoughts on this from my perspective this deal is not good