Small arms and Light Weapons

[shuvo@y2k10]

FN FAL? No... The gun itself isn't accurate enough (3.5-4 MOA) with ball ammo.. Maybe 2-2.5 MOA with match ammo. A DMR should be less than 1.5 MOA, at least. We have Dragunov and Sig 716i that are capable of that accuracy with match ammo. Sig 716i should be effective out to 600-700m with 1-8 or 1-10 optic. 800m with Dragunov.

The Sig can print sub MOA groups with match grade .308 ammo btw.

You can acheive high accuracy with a modernized FN-FAL also. Of course, that would need a heavy fluted SS barrel with 1:10 twist rate, with a floating hand guard a good muzzle break and improved trigger. That would make FAL a good semi-auto DMR rifle with its 21 inch barrel. Companies like DSA and IMBEL have modified and evolved FAL to a large extent.
This will be agood option, given our previous manufacturing experience with SLR.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Why not buy caracal rifle and caracal carbine both .
Caracal 817 and caracal 816?

 

[Killbot]

More than enough for assaulting a moving target in an open field, but not in CQB offcouse.
Another thing is that IWI has a basic Ar15 platform called iwi zion for civilian market . These guys have everything do they??

No one uses auto fire in CQB. Control is the most important thing in CQB. If you use auto mode and miss a target at close range, you won't be able to get the gun back on target easily. That is why people just shoot really fast in Semi auto wrt CQB.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Come what may this rifle should be selected, its really versatile for 5.56 rifle.

IWI Carmel, just like Arad almost same rate of fire but ergonomically very different.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Must read

http://ficci.in/spdocument/23180/small-arms-report.pdf

 

[Vishalreddy3]

No one uses auto fire in CQB. Control is the most important thing in CQB. If you use auto mode and miss a target at close range, you won't be able to get the gun back on target easily. That is why people just shoot really fast in Semi auto wrt CQB.

Especially with 5.56 its really dangerous, resulting in friendly fire.

 

[Killbot]

You can acheive high accuracy with a modernized FN-FAL also. Of course, that would need a heavy fluted SS barrel with 1:10 twist rate, with a floating hand guard a good muzzle break and improved trigger. That would make FAL a good semi-auto DMR rifle with its 21 inch barrel. Companies like DSA and IMBEL have modified and evolved FAL to a large extent.
This will be agood option, given our previous manufacturing experience with SLR.

If you're going for a whole new rifle, then the AR-10 platform is superior. And one could argue that a 1:9.5" twist rate is the best for accuracy. FAL trigger group assembly won't get as good as a match grade AR-10 trigger group. The piston operated gas system is also going to adversely impact accuracy.

It is just an inferior platform compared to the AR-10 platform, especially us accuracy is taken into account.

 

[Killbot]

IWI Carmel, just like Arad almost same rate of fire but ergonomically very different.

I like Arad better.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Click Here

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

To be honest the best replacement of SCAR in SFF/Para-SF/NSG is a desi copy of SCAR. Like Astr defence Indra rifle, or a OFB copy.

SCAR is a good rifle no doubt. However, it is not suitable for CQB.

Now CQB has a broad definition.

In stand-off ranges between 100-200 m SCAR is very good, but there are other rifles with similar performance. Any modern AR or modern AK would do a reasonable good job.

Less than 50m SCAR is not so good.IWI ARAD, Carmal are good better option

Room intervention (MP5 territory): Here SCAR is a bad choice especially because of its bulky nature.If it is room intervention, then latest Sig MCX vitus, Daniel defence MK-18. IWI ARAD, Carmal are much much better option.

Body guard role: Here a PDW with preferrable concealed carry is essential. SCAR is a terrible choice here. Sig MPX, Kriss vector are good choice.

So, first we need to know what kind of role Special forces need for a SCAR substitute.

PS: Any top model AR 15 based derivates from plethora of USA companies likes Daniel defence, LWRC, Knights armaments, PSA etc. would do a fine job of our overall SF CQB needs.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Why is SCAR so costly ?

 

[FalconSlayers]

Why is SCAR so costly ?

Produced in small numbers due to obvious reasons, its not supposed to be an infantry rifle but an alleged Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) hence not huge amounts are ordered by Special Forces as they are just small forces.

 

[Killbot]

To be honest the best replacement of SCAR in SFF/Para-SF/NSG is a desi copy of SCAR. Like Astr defence Indra rifle, or a OFB copy.

SCAR is a good rifle no doubt. However, it is not suitable for CQB.

Now CQB has a broad definition.

In stand-off ranges between 100-200 m SCAR is very good, but there are other rifles with similar performance. Any modern AR or modern AK would do a reasonable good job.

Less than 50m SCAR is not so good.IWI ARAD, Carmal are good better option

Room intervention (MP5 territory): Here SCAR is a bad choice especially because of its bulky nature.If it is room intervention, then latest Sig MCX vitus, Daniel defence MK-18. IWI ARAD, Carmal are much much better option.

Body guard role: Here a PDW with preferrable concealed carry is essential. SCAR is a terrible choice here. Sig MPX, Kriss vector are good choice.

So, first we need to know what kind of role Special forces need for a SCAR substitute.

PS: Any top model AR 15 based derivates from plethora of USA companies likes Daniel defence, LWRC, Knights armaments, PSA etc. would do a fine job of our overall SF CQB needs.

SCAR is overpriced and said to have been unreliable in mountainous regions. Shit for Indian SF. It isn't nearly as modular as any AR-15. And the recoil and reciprocating charging handle are a bitch, especially wrt SCAR-17. Even SEALs are unhappy with it. Thats why they mostly use M4 SOPMOD Block 2 in Afghanistan.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Charging handle indeed is a b+++h

 

[Killbot]

Found an interesting pic of a SEAL in Afghanistan. A CQBR. Mk.18 Mod 3.

I think it is ST6. He's using an 11.5" barrel mk.18 Mod 3 CQBR. Whats interesting is the Elcan Sectra 1/4X scope is the main optic and the EOTech is offset. Never seen that before. I've seen Deltapoints and other micro red dots offset, but never an EOTech.

 

[Killbot]

Found an interesting pic of a SEAL in Afghanistan. A CQBR. Mk.18 Mod 3.
View attachment 72466

I think it is ST6. He's using an 11.5" barrel mk.18 Mod 3 CQBR. Whats interesting is the Elcan Sectra 1/4X scope is the main optic and the EOTech is offset. Never seen that before. I've seen Deltapoints and other micro red dots offset, but never an EOTech.

Shit, I'm wrong. That is a HK 416D.. With M-LOK rails. 10.4" barrel. He's SEAL Team 6.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

HK-416 is the favourite choice of US SFs. So much so, that even US Army is adopting HK-417 as DMR as a USMC is adopting a heavier barrel version of HK-416 named as IAR.

 

[FalconSlayers]

HK-416 is the favourite choice of US SFs. So much so, that even US Army is adopting HK-417 as DMR as a USMC is adopting a heavier barrel version of HK-416 named as IAR.

I can’t understand using IAR instead of Drum magged LMGs.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I can’t understand using IAR instead of Drum magged LMGs.

On a serious note, I think it's a bad choice replacing their SAW and M-4s with IARs.

 

[Flying Dagger]

SCAR is overpriced and said to have been unreliable in mountainous regions. Shit for Indian SF. It isn't nearly as modular as any AR-15. And the recoil and reciprocating charging handle are a bitch, especially wrt SCAR-17. Even SEALs are unhappy with it. Thats why they mostly use M4 SOPMOD Block 2 in Afghanistan.

Actually recoil is pretty low in comparison to other rifles when it comes to SCAR . Main problem is the cost vs advantage. Any decent AR copy can provide almost similar performance infact the DI version of Sig 716 costed us just 990 dollar that means we can equip almost three for the price of one .

Their magazine and stuff also comes from FN only and increase the cost.

One can definitely use it as a battle rifle but it goes against the principle of mass production at low cost if it comes from FN. The other option is going through CZ route or copy it ourselves here since they have shown us middle finger time to reply in kind.

ARAD is an AR 15 derivative... While Carmel is Further evolution of Galil based experience IWI had. These two rifles if in budget are two solid contenders else there are tons of American small arms company which can do the magic of providing a credible AR to us.

I really wish in 2020s our soldiers aren't roaming with some cheap copy of Aks but reliable and accurate rifles as they will be used till 2040s atleast and we need to keep that in mind.