Assault Rifle

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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Johny_Baba

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this is the AK-203 we are getting
View attachment 63821

Not only stock,but the whole hand guard of AK 203 have been replaced with the ak 103 hand guard,since the new modular cleaning rod was
stored in the new stock,it has also been replaced by traditional single piece cleaning rod.Apart from these the selector lever and old black polymer mags of ak 103 have been retained.


The only logical conclusion which we can draw from it is,that these steps were done to bring the cost of rifle down as directed by the Indian government. If this is the case then its a sign of things to come,when it comes to infantry modernization .First of all it points
to a *censored*ed up economy,which has forced government to do such cost cuttings,second rest assured there will be no standard reflex sights,vertical fore grip,flash lights,ir laser along with the rifle.Be ready to see an IA jawan lug around basic ak for the next 20 years to come.Not only this ,I am sure that they will also cut corner in sling,instead on the new sling for ak 203 and ak 15 they will make do with either the old design sling on ak 103,or replace it with insas sling just to save some bucks.Not only this ,I am sure a modern Indian soldier would carry less than 100 rounds with him,as army will not issue more than three mags in name of cost cutting.

If this was not directed by government for cost cutting ,but done by Indian army generals ,than this is only going to prove that Indian army is not only third world army in terms of its equipment,but also in its thinking and approach towards future.There is something seriously wrong with the mindset and attitude of senior leadership of IA.

Forget about the rifle,the whole procurement plan was *censored*ed up ,right from the beginning .The choice of three rifle calibers,three different rifle platforms was absurd and foolish to begin with.Then the choice of the rifle,which was done without any formal trials,bidding or even a formal tender is downright scandalous .

This is not the first time Indian army has made such a choice of going for a legacy platform while talking about being prepared for the future.Right from the selection of plain PASGT helmet,when modern ach design with night vision mount and rails were available,to selection of plain bullet proof vest when the future is all about modular vest,to going for igla S,when verba and other modern platforms are available shows the backward thinking of the IA top brass.

Coming back to AK 203,first of all the choice of 7.62x39mm for the whole army is bad,on top of it to further water down the already basic ak 203 is beyond pathetic.It was sole responsibility of IA top brass to take a stand for themselves ,and refuse to such demands.But in this age of boot licking ,I think it is difficult and rare to expect higher ranks to show some spine.



What amaze me is that they have not even left the basic selector lever with extension,how much would have a small metal extension affected the cost of the rifle is beyond me.


Even though Modi has taken some good decisions,most of his decision have been plain bad as far as military procurement is concerned.Announcing AK 203 as the next rifle without any competition,bidding,or be it choosing 36 Rafael over negotiating a good deal for 126 jets are few such examples.


After seeing all this ,I think OFB and insas were well deserved for the Indian army,hope OFB screw them even more with AK 203.

With this version of AK 203 ,Indian army will carry forward its legacy of using SHIT looking rifles.If Insas was an eyesore this rifle is no beauty queen either. Of course things like modular stock,long hand guard,stable rails,common platform,caliber,long range are things which are irrelevant to the Indian(militia) army.On top of that if these fool manage to pay close to 1000 dollar for this rifle ,then it will be an icing on the cake.


Irrespective of how much one would wish for,I don't think this deal will be getting scrapped.Even if the SSS defence rifle proves to be much better in all fronts,even if they offer the rifle for half the price of ak 203,unfortunately I don't see this disaster of a deal written off.Because this rifle has already been marketed by Modi and his team as some masterstroke,it has been publicized beyond limit.Now it has become a ego issue for Modi.Not only this the manufacturing facility at Amethi (Smriti irani) is also one of the main reason why this deal will have to happen ,at any cost .I guess Russians have also sensed this,thus they are trying to draw maximum benefit out of this.

Further if SSS defence rifle have to be selected then it cannot be done without issuing new tender,competitive bidding and formal trials,as other private manufacturers who have done JV for small arms will raise questions. As far as SSS defence is concerned ,the best approach for them would be to forget about IA and focus on CAPF and police departments,there are more realistic chances with them than convincing the Indian army.





Before I end ,I would like to summarize this rifle deal :

1.Legacy platform,you will have to worry even for the basic thing such as stability of the rail.

2. Worst design ,which could have been chosen for TOT.

3.Worst caliber choice for Infantry.

4. Blatant rip off by paying more than 1000 dollars for this.

5. On top of this we will have to be show how indebted we are towards Russia,to sell there shit platform in jacked up prices to us.

6. Shows the malice plaguing our army.

In one word,a SHITSHOW.
Well i recently got into online tu tu me me with someone in certain TG group and his argument regarding this all things on this sort of AK-203s we're getting was..


"SOLDIERS KO ADJUSTABLE BUTTSTOCK DENA MATLAB TRAINING ME KHARCHAA BADHAANAA"


This is general mindset of Gernails and Babudumbs of MoD here,who thinks that giving firearm that's going to be common among army to police (remember eventually this AK would be replacing all ones in service in different military-paramilitary-police units etc) should be bare-boned,coming with elementary features only to keep "Training Cost" minimal, apart from keeping manufacturing-ToT-acquisition cost as low as possible, of course, and yes if we consider "time it would take to train soldiers with such features"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My take on that "logic",
So giving a length-adjustable buttstock is gonna increase overall training cost in all way because our soldiers are so dumbfucks they could not figure out such a simple stuff of pressing a button on buttstock and adjusting it as per their comfort, our soldiers are so dumbfuck that they couldn't be trained on a simple extended/modified fire selector on AK without involving some "cost" and so.
And even if we have to give training about such things then pray tell me how much time and effort does it take to present such a simple buttstock-adjusting task, or showing them how to operate tactical fire selector on AK using finger ? i bet not even a minute.

This kind of babudumb-grasht people are running the circus that is why we may never see much improvements in terms of firearms here ,otherwise just have a look on kind of riphuls we have been offered / tested so far,

AUG,F90 etc AUG family
Cz-805,-807,
Galil ACE,
Beretta ARX-160,
LMT's AR-15 family,
S&T K-2,
Tavor-7 etc
and what not i have lost names and counts.

This also seems to be one of the reason to me that most of stuff offered from OFB is so....elementary-bare boned etc sorta,because that is perhaps what is given to those chaps as ;requirements; in name of ;keep-it-simple-stupid;

I would suggest newbies here to visit old 'INSAS RIFLE' thread and read posts by ghost who often argued over this. (I wish the guy was active here, missed his detaied insights regarding firearms a lot on this forum...Buddy if you're here reading this then pls give a bump 👊)
 
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Killbot

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Well i recently got into online tu tu me me with someone in certain TG group and his argument regarding this all things on this sort of AK-203s we're getting was..


"SOLDIERS KO ADJUSTABLE BUTTSTOCK DENA MATLAB TRAINING ME KHARCHAA BADHAANAA"


This is general mindset of Gernails and Babudumbs of MoD here,who thinks that giving firearm that's going to be common among army to police (remember eventually this AK would be replacing all ones in service in different military-paramilitary-police units etc) should be bare-boned,coming with elementary features only to keep "Training Cost" minimal, apart from keeping manufacturing-ToT-acquisition cost as low as possible, of course, and yes if we consider "time it would take to train soldiers with such features"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My take on that "logic",
So giving a length-adjustable buttstock is gonna increase overall training cost in all way because our soldiers are so dumbfucks they could not figure out such a simple stuff of pressing a button on buttstock and adjusting it as per their comfort, our soldiers are so dumbfuck that they couldn't be trained on a simple extended/modified fire selector on AK without involving some "cost" and so

This kind of babudumb-grasht people are running the circus that is why we may never see much improvements in terms of firearms here ,otherwise just have a look on kind of riphuls we have been offered / tested so far,

AUG,F90 etc AUG family
Cz-805,-807,
Galil ACE,
Beretta ARX-160,
LMT's AR-15 family,
S&T K-2,
Tavor-7 etc
and what not i have lost names and counts.


This also seems to be one of the reason to me that most of stuff offered from OFB is so....elementary-bare boned etc sorta,because that is perhaps what is given to those chaps as ;requirements; in name of ;keep-it-simple-stupid;
WTF are they gonna do when they have 3 different weapon systems?! Uss mean training cost nahi badega kya? Chutiya bana rahe hai sab ko.
 

Johny_Baba

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WTF are they gonna do when they have 3 different weapon systems?! Uss mean training cost nahi badega kya? Chutiya bana rahe hai sab ko.
Well with AK-203 we have one advantage of keeping training same as Older AKs and INSAS because both are basically same firearms in operation-disassembly-cleaning etc,and of course we have got here tonnes of those 7.62x39mm magazines from older AKs so saving some monies there, and yes tonnes of ammo as well.

As for SIG716i,
Unpopular Opinion but OFB's 7.62 NATO Rifle (based on INSAS Excalibur Mk.1C) would've been better option to keep cost low, bekoze same INSAS pattern riphul, taking 1A SLR mags that we've got here in good numbers and it being a bare-boned riphul yes!
Apparently SIG lobby won this contract (remember some bigshot guy's wife from that company made some visits to MoD when tender was going on etc etc)
 
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GunDeGunday

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O bhai pls sthaap with all these 'mud test' memes, every design has its flaws in some way or other and all that we could conclude from these tests is a sealed design would perform better in conditions involving muddy environment than an open one.

BUT it doesn't mean that AK is not "IN GENERAL" a reliable design
If you read my original post that's exactly what I said but then some people started talking about how Russian AK™ made in a Russian factory™ would work fine with authentic Russian mud™ inside it so that's what I responded to.
 

GunDeGunday

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WTF are they gonna do when they have 3 different weapon systems?! Uss mean training cost nahi badega kya? Chutiya bana rahe hai sab ko.
Indian procurement magic 😛
Doesn't matter whether it's guns, planes, tanks or anything else, all of our systems are mixed.

In terms of ammo, I think we're already using 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 5.56x45 NATO, 5.56x30 MINSAS and some 9mm as well, plus god knows what else. So nothing's gonna change with 3 different weapon systems as you say, it'll be like another procurement day!
 

Killbot

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Indian procurement magic 😛
Doesn't matter whether it's guns, planes, tanks or anything else, all of our systems are mixed.

In terms of ammo, I think we're already using 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 5.56x45 NATO, 5.56x30 MINSAS and some 9mm as well, plus god knows what else. So nothing's gonna change with 3 different weapon systems as you say, it'll be like another procurement day!
Yeah bro, I've long lost any semblance of faith I had in our system..
 

GunDeGunday

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Yeah bro, I've long lost any semblance of faith I had in our system..
Weapons are very expensive so at least excuses about that can be believable even if they're lies but our govts haven't even been able to outfit the army properly. Mixed camoflage patterns, mixed uniforms, it's a complete mess.

Our "professional" army looks like a ragtag group of South American communist guerillas sometimes.
 

Vishalreddy3

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ARs are very reliable and prevent gunk from going inside in the first place meanwhile AKs fail mud tests.

That isn't to say one is better than the other they're two different designs that have pros and cons. India doesn't have some magical special environment different from everywhere else where USA or anyone else with ARs has gone and fought with their guns and come out fine.

AKs are very hard to come by for American shooters so there's this whole "reliability" meme about AKs being the most amazing thing that they can't get their hands on. They're not exceptionally reliable but they're good enough, just like the AR.

Any military that has a mix of both or switched from AK to AR usually prefer the AR as a gun but might complain about ammo.

The problem for us in India with the AR platform is that it uses 5.56 bullets and it's lethality has often been brought to question and even Indian soldiers prefer 7.62x39 to bring down jihadis.

So our current plan of having AK be the mainstream weapon with a few ARs sprinkled in is pretty good other than potential bullet caliber logistics issues.



Lo bhai aap bhi lo

If you think that is a torture test of Ak74, then you need to see this!!
 

GunDeGunday

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If you think that is a torture test of Ak74, then you need to see this!!
No dude, I never said any such thing. I VERY CLEARLY said they're both good platforms with different pros and cons and I only used Mud Test as an EXAMPLE of a con for AK. I also pretty clearly said I think the AK is a good choice for our military along with a few ARs thrown in like the Sig.

I don't know why everyone is quoting or referencing me while only seeing half the content, bhaiya arguments to dekh lo sab pehle, kya jaldi hai reply karne ki. Bhaade ki knowledge hai hum sub pe, koi hai nahi hum ne se jo weekly shooting karta ho aur involved ho poore gun business me ya trials aur studies conduct karta ho. Thoda chill karo yaara.

And yes I've already seen gun busters, it's a really cool series and pretty much all of Kalashnikov Concern's videos. :)
 

Vishalreddy3

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No dude, I never said any such thing. I VERY CLEARLY said they're both good platforms with different pros and cons and I only used Mud Test as an EXAMPLE of a con for AK. I also pretty clearly said I think the AK is a good choice for our military along with a few ARs thrown in like the Sig.

I don't know why everyone is quoting or referencing me while only seeing half the content, bhaiya arguments to dekh lo sab pehle, kya jaldi hai reply karne ki. Bhaade ki knowledge hai hum sub pe, koi hai nahi hum ne se jo weekly shooting karta ho aur involved ho poore gun business me ya trials aur studies conduct karta ho. Thoda chill karo yaara.

And yes I've already seen gun busters, it's a really cool series and pretty much all of Kalashnikov Concern's videos. :)
Wait wait, when did I criticised your argument in the first place?????
I only showed you a better video in claiming your stance 😂😂😂
 

Bhumihar

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It's a dream gun for sure hope it comes to reality!!
IWI Carmel
View attachment 63888
A dream gun isn't something that is just supposed to look tacticool.
It's meant to suit most of our geographical terrain cross country.
Adoptable across all sodierd from all ethnic groups form a jatt to gurkha.
It's meant to be tenacious and reliable so that it can work for a decent time even when it isn't getting servicing.
It must be upgradable so that it can change with the evey changing scope of war.
It should have the space to accompany all kind of attachment and add on.
It must me affordable for the Indian budget.

U don't learn to drive if u keep enjoying the ride of passenger seat.
Take the wheel, put up with the pressure and responsibility you will fail sometimes, you may as well crash the car soemtimes but the end result will be worth it.
 

Vishalreddy3

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A dream gun isn't something that is just supposed to look tacticool.
It's meant to suit most of our geographical terrain cross country.
Adoptable across all sodierd from all ethnic groups form a jatt to gurkha.
It's meant to be tenacious and reliable so that it can work for a decent time even when it isn't getting servicing.
It must be upgradable so that it can change with the evey changing scope of war.
It should have the space to accompany all kind of attachment and add on.
It must me affordable for the Indian budget.

U don't learn to drive if u keep enjoying the ride of passenger seat.
Take the wheel, put up with the pressure and responsibility you will fail sometimes, you may as well crash the car soemtimes but the end result will be worth it.
Well this gun is Israeli made, we know how a bullpup designed Israeli gun is extensively used in all Indian conditions!!
I can only imagine an AR based gun which is manufactured by the same Israeli company is gonna work in all Indian conditions, and in my opinion, this gun is definitely designed for harsher conditions since IWI knows the condition of their products where they are getting used the most. Definetely this gun has better quality than other carbines being offered!! To be honest I would take this than Ofb offered one.
 

Killbot

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Weapons are very expensive so at least excuses about that can be believable even if they're lies but our govts haven't even been able to outfit the army properly. Mixed camoflage patterns, mixed uniforms, it's a complete mess.

Our "professional" army looks like a ragtag group of South American communist guerillas sometimes.
Sub Saharan African militias under warlords look more uniform than our 'elite' SFs.
 

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