Assault Rifle

When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?


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FalconSlayers

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I posted in the previous page that SSS products are also rusty and not upto the IA standards. Hence on the verge of loosing the competition. All Indian manufacturers have better scope in CAPFs and State police force since their requirements are not high standards!
The Army standards are such that only Kalashnikovs can be selected.
Indian Army rejected M4A1 for Infantry, rejected MCIWS, rejected everyone coz only Kalashnikovs are capable to give such performance.

IA is a joke!

SSS defence weapons are rusty?
what do you mean?
I guess they rejected Astr Defence modular small arms too, for what? If an AR Pattern rifle made in India is rejected how can army think of using Israeli Arad, an AR Pattern rifle.
 

FalconSlayers

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Complete list of all the RFIs and RFPs for rifles issued.
View attachment 63810
Source: http://ficci.in/spdocument/23180/small-arms-report.pdf

IMP thing to note is other than FTP of 72400 rifles from (which has a repeat order), there is another RFI of more than 5.5 lakhs 7.62*51 mm assault rifles.
Earlier I remember that when Gen Rawat was COAS, he gave a press conference, where he said these will be procured through indigenous source. He was most probably referring to OFB 7.62*51 rifle.

Anyone knows what is the progress on that tender?
OFB 7.62X51mm gun was very good!
but still army rejected it.

I only suggest that Army should go for AK-308.
1603249082490.jpeg

1603249118513.jpeg

Or Astr Defence INDRA.
 

Bleh

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OFB 7.62X51mm gun was very good!
but still army rejected it.

I only suggest that Army should go for AK-308.
View attachment 63818
View attachment 63819
Or Astr Defence INDRA.
Pushing opinions like this is no use.

For example, you dont have any details how good the OFB gun was compared to Sig-716 one. But we do know Sig-Sauer has much better build quality reputation & offered much better price.

Again you overlook that IA already uses all three... 7.62X51mm, 7.62X39mm, 5.56X45mm in massive numbers. Yes they could have gotten rid of 5.56 carbines in favour of Ak-203 (now that they'll be swallowing that overpriced load from Ruski daddy) but they're choosing not to. Maybe there's a valid reason... Try & find that 1st.
 
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Killbot

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The Army standards are such that only Kalashnikovs can be selected.
Indian Army rejected M4A1 for Infantry, rejected MCIWS, rejected everyone coz only Kalashnikovs are capable to give such performance.

IA is a joke!

SSS defence weapons are rusty?
what do you mean?
I guess they rejected Astr Defence modular small arms too, for what? If an AR Pattern rifle made in India is rejected how can army think of using Israeli Arad, an AR Pattern rifle.
You gotta consider reliability. Kalashnikovs are the best at that. Indian conditions are really bad (climatic). M4A1, being a direct impingement rifle, will not be reliable in really high temperature or a dusty environment. As for SSSD weapons, have you seen them shoot? Reliability tests or something of that sort? You cannot comment about their quality without having seen them perform..
 

FalconSlayers

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Pushing opinions like this is no use.

For example, you dont have any details how good the OFB gun was compared to Sig-716 one. But we do know Sig-Sauer has much better build quality reputation & offered much better price.

Again you overlook that IA already uses all three... 7.62X51mm, 7.62X39mm, 5.56X45mm in massive numbers. Yes they could have gotten rid of 5.56 carbines in favour of Ak-203 (now that they'll be swallowing that overpriced load from Ruski daddy) but they're choosing not to. Maybe there's a valid reason... Try & find that 1st.
That sig costs more than a lakh
 

FalconSlayers

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So does OFB one.
OFB ka kya kehna😂
but optics aren’t available for any rifles why are we even going for a rail on AK-203 When no optics will be attached except a few pieces in the valley.

the AK-203 that we are getting is merely an AK-103 with rails, I mean why even go for rails then? for cost savings a lot of things were removed from the AK-203.

Instead we should have opted for AK-103, atleast it comes with a side mount and using a side mounting system a single optic can be attached to it if required As our vintage army can’t equip more than that.

IA opted for SiG-716i with full length rails as if they are planning to equip a lot of things on it, a simple SiG-716 Patrol G2 would have been better.

only a few AK-47s and SIg-716i’s are equipped with a reflex sight In Kashmir.

lmao!
 

Bleh

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OFB ka kya kehna😂
but optics aren’t available for any rifles why are we even going for a rail on AK-203 When no optics will be attached except a few pieces in the valley.

the AK-203 that we are getting is merely an AK-103 with rails, I mean why even go for rails then? for cost savings a lot of things were removed from the AK-203.

Instead we should have opted for AK-103, atleast using a side mounting system a single optic can be attached to it if required.

only a few AK-47s and SIg-716i’s are equipped with a reflex sight.

lmao!
@Killbot What's the tribute for these AK-1/203s?.. Want it quoted somewhere near 0.75 lakh a piece?
 

Killbot

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@Killbot What's the tribute for these AK-1/203s?.. Want it quoted somewhere near 1.75 lakh a piece?
$1150. 85000 for an AK that would be worth 30000 in Russia. They're saying TeChNol0gy TraNsFeR, MaN HouR, LaBouR etc.. and it does not come with a collapsible buttstock even. Same stock as 103. And no rails on upper handguard.
 

FalconSlayers

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$1150. 85000 for an AK that would be worth 30000 in Russia. They're saying TeChNol0gy TraNsFeR, MaN HouR, LaBouR etc..
I feel theres corruption in this deal, they weren’t trialled but straightaway accepted, for AmEtHi votes in next election against RaHuL GaNdHi.

Make in India is a trash, Make in India only the things made in India, not license manufacturing that gives nothing.

we made Su-30MKI under license, costed us 1.4x the original cost, got no ToT (literally) and took years to complete order.

This make in India is a trash!

wtf is tech transfer of a rifle? It is no rocket science.
One needs to Ask MoD, when Kalashnikov concern is not transferring metallurgy to us then wtf is ToT then?
 

FalconSlayers

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this is the AK-203 we are getting
1603253688297.jpeg


Not only stock,but the whole hand guard of AK 203 have been replaced with the ak 103 hand guard,since the new modular cleaning rod was
stored in the new stock,it has also been replaced by traditional single piece cleaning rod.Apart from these the selector lever and old black polymer mags of ak 103 have been retained.


The only logical conclusion which we can draw from it is,that these steps were done to bring the cost of rifle down as directed by the Indian government. If this is the case then its a sign of things to come,when it comes to infantry modernization .First of all it points
to a *censored*ed up economy,which has forced government to do such cost cuttings,second rest assured there will be no standard reflex sights,vertical fore grip,flash lights,ir laser along with the rifle.Be ready to see an IA jawan lug around basic ak for the next 20 years to come.Not only this ,I am sure that they will also cut corner in sling,instead on the new sling for ak 203 and ak 15 they will make do with either the old design sling on ak 103,or replace it with insas sling just to save some bucks.Not only this ,I am sure a modern Indian soldier would carry less than 100 rounds with him,as army will not issue more than three mags in name of cost cutting.

If this was not directed by government for cost cutting ,but done by Indian army generals ,than this is only going to prove that Indian army is not only third world army in terms of its equipment,but also in its thinking and approach towards future.There is something seriously wrong with the mindset and attitude of senior leadership of IA.

Forget about the rifle,the whole procurement plan was *censored*ed up ,right from the beginning .The choice of three rifle calibers,three different rifle platforms was absurd and foolish to begin with.Then the choice of the rifle,which was done without any formal trials,bidding or even a formal tender is downright scandalous .

This is not the first time Indian army has made such a choice of going for a legacy platform while talking about being prepared for the future.Right from the selection of plain PASGT helmet,when modern ach design with night vision mount and rails were available,to selection of plain bullet proof vest when the future is all about modular vest,to going for igla S,when verba and other modern platforms are available shows the backward thinking of the IA top brass.

Coming back to AK 203,first of all the choice of 7.62x39mm for the whole army is bad,on top of it to further water down the already basic ak 203 is beyond pathetic.It was sole responsibility of IA top brass to take a stand for themselves ,and refuse to such demands.But in this age of boot licking ,I think it is difficult and rare to expect higher ranks to show some spine.



What amaze me is that they have not even left the basic selector lever with extension,how much would have a small metal extension affected the cost of the rifle is beyond me.


Even though Modi has taken some good decisions,most of his decision have been plain bad as far as military procurement is concerned.Announcing AK 203 as the next rifle without any competition,bidding,or be it choosing 36 Rafael over negotiating a good deal for 126 jets are few such examples.


After seeing all this ,I think OFB and insas were well deserved for the Indian army,hope OFB screw them even more with AK 203.

With this version of AK 203 ,Indian army will carry forward its legacy of using SHIT looking rifles.If Insas was an eyesore this rifle is no beauty queen either. Of course things like modular stock,long hand guard,stable rails,common platform,caliber,long range are things which are irrelevant to the Indian(militia) army.On top of that if these fool manage to pay close to 1000 dollar for this rifle ,then it will be an icing on the cake.


Irrespective of how much one would wish for,I don't think this deal will be getting scrapped.Even if the SSS defence rifle proves to be much better in all fronts,even if they offer the rifle for half the price of ak 203,unfortunately I don't see this disaster of a deal written off.Because this rifle has already been marketed by Modi and his team as some masterstroke,it has been publicized beyond limit.Now it has become a ego issue for Modi.Not only this the manufacturing facility at Amethi (Smriti irani) is also one of the main reason why this deal will have to happen ,at any cost .I guess Russians have also sensed this,thus they are trying to draw maximum benefit out of this.

Further if SSS defence rifle have to be selected then it cannot be done without issuing new tender,competitive bidding and formal trials,as other private manufacturers who have done JV for small arms will raise questions. As far as SSS defence is concerned ,the best approach for them would be to forget about IA and focus on CAPF and police departments,there are more realistic chances with them than convincing the Indian army.





Before I end ,I would like to summarize this rifle deal :

1.Legacy platform,you will have to worry even for the basic thing such as stability of the rail.

2. Worst design ,which could have been chosen for TOT.

3.Worst caliber choice for Infantry.

4. Blatant rip off by paying more than 1000 dollars for this.

5. On top of this we will have to be show how indebted we are towards Russia,to sell there shit platform in jacked up prices to us.

6. Shows the malice plaguing our army.

In one word,a SHITSHOW.
 

GunDeGunday

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You gotta consider reliability. Kalashnikovs are the best at that. Indian conditions are really bad (climatic). M4A1, being a direct impingement rifle, will not be reliable in really high temperature or a dusty environment. As for SSSD weapons, have you seen them shoot? Reliability tests or something of that sort? You cannot comment about their quality without having seen them perform..
ARs are very reliable and prevent gunk from going inside in the first place meanwhile AKs fail mud tests.

That isn't to say one is better than the other they're two different designs that have pros and cons. India doesn't have some magical special environment different from everywhere else where USA or anyone else with ARs has gone and fought with their guns and come out fine.

AKs are very hard to come by for American shooters so there's this whole "reliability" meme about AKs being the most amazing thing that they can't get their hands on. They're not exceptionally reliable but they're good enough, just like the AR.

Any military that has a mix of both or switched from AK to AR usually prefer the AR as a gun but might complain about ammo.

The problem for us in India with the AR platform is that it uses 5.56 bullets and it's lethality has often been brought to question and even Indian soldiers prefer 7.62x39 to bring down jihadis.

So our current plan of having AK be the mainstream weapon with a few ARs sprinkled in is pretty good other than potential bullet caliber logistics issues.


AKs never fail mud tests:ear:
Lo bhai aap bhi lo

 
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FalconSlayers

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ARs are very reliable and prevent gunk from going inside in the first place meanwhile AKs fail mud tests.

That isn't to say one is better than the other they're two different designs that have pros and cons. India doesn't have some magical special environment different from everywhere else where USA or anyone else with ARs has gone and fought with their guns and come out fine.

AKs are very hard to come by for American shooters so there's this whole "reliability" meme about AKs being the most amazing thing that they can't get their hands on. They're not exceptionally reliable but they're good enough, just like the AR.

Any military that has a mix of both or switched from AK to AR usually prefer the AR as a gun but might complain about ammo.

The problem for us in India with the AR platform is that it uses 5.56 bullets and it's lethality has often been brought to question and even Indian soldiers prefer 7.62x39 to bring down jihadis.

So our current plan of having AK be the mainstream weapon with a few ARs sprinkled in is pretty good other than potential bullet caliber logistics issues.
AKs never fail mud tests:ear:
 

FalconSlayers

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ARs are very reliable and prevent gunk from going inside in the first place meanwhile AKs fail mud tests.

That isn't to say one is better than the other they're two different designs that have pros and cons. India doesn't have some magical special environment different from everywhere else where USA or anyone else with ARs has gone and fought with their guns and come out fine.

AKs are very hard to come by for American shooters so there's this whole "reliability" meme about AKs being the most amazing thing that they can't get their hands on. They're not exceptionally reliable but they're good enough, just like the AR.

Any military that has a mix of both or switched from AK to AR usually prefer the AR as a gun but might complain about ammo.

The problem for us in India with the AR platform is that it uses 5.56 bullets and it's lethality has often been brought to question and even Indian soldiers prefer 7.62x39 to bring down jihadis.

So our current plan of having AK be the mainstream weapon with a few ARs sprinkled in is pretty good other than potential bullet caliber logistics issues.
6.8x43mm would have been better.
 

FalconSlayers

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ARs are very reliable and prevent gunk from going inside in the first place meanwhile AKs fail mud tests.

That isn't to say one is better than the other they're two different designs that have pros and cons. India doesn't have some magical special environment different from everywhere else where USA or anyone else with ARs has gone and fought with their guns and come out fine.

AKs are very hard to come by for American shooters so there's this whole "reliability" meme about AKs being the most amazing thing that they can't get their hands on. They're not exceptionally reliable but they're good enough, just like the AR.

Any military that has a mix of both or switched from AK to AR usually prefer the AR as a gun but might complain about ammo.

The problem for us in India with the AR platform is that it uses 5.56 bullets and it's lethality has often been brought to question and even Indian soldiers prefer 7.62x39 to bring down jihadis.

So our current plan of having AK be the mainstream weapon with a few ARs sprinkled in is pretty good other than potential bullet caliber logistics issues.



Lo bhai aap bhi lo

Lol chinese AK-47.
a real russian ak is the most reliable gun on earth.
 

Killbot

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ARs are very reliable and prevent gunk from going inside in the first place meanwhile AKs fail mud tests.

That isn't to say one is better than the other they're two different designs that have pros and cons. India doesn't have some magical special environment different from everywhere else where USA or anyone else with ARs has gone and fought with their guns and come out fine.

AKs are very hard to come by for American shooters so there's this whole "reliability" meme about AKs being the most amazing thing that they can't get their hands on. They're not exceptionally reliable but they're good enough, just like the AR.

Any military that has a mix of both or switched from AK to AR usually prefer the AR as a gun but might complain about ammo.

The problem for us in India with the AR platform is that it uses 5.56 bullets and it's lethality has often been brought to question and even Indian soldiers prefer 7.62x39 to bring down jihadis.

So our current plan of having AK be the mainstream weapon with a few ARs sprinkled in is pretty good other than potential bullet caliber logistics issues.



Lo bhai aap bhi lo

Short stroke piston operated ARs are what you are referring. Impingement ones won't be as reliable. Dude that video has a crappy American made AK. AKs can fail mud tests if not made properly...
 

GunDeGunday

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6.8x43mm would have been better.
You want the Indian Forces to dump all their current ammo and weapons and pick up a random cartridge size that is slated TO BE a future standard caliber in USA as well as change all our weapons? That's highly unrealistic.

Lol chinese AK-47.
a real russian ak is the most reliable gun on earth.
Dude that video has a crappy American made AK. AKs can fail mud tests if not made properly...
What nonsense.
"American AK/Chinese AK of course THAT will fail, the REAL one will not"

Do you guys not understand how stupid simple it is to build an AK? Do you think there's some magic "reliability" sauce they sprinkle on it to make it in Russia?

Since you think that's an "American" or "Chinese" AK therefore invalid I'll indulge you:

Here is a Czech "AK" variant failing:

Here is a Bulgarian as well as Finnish AK failing:

The Finnish AK is considered one of the best, if not THE best AK. And these results are just from InRange's testing, there's many more you can find from many different channels.

Don't fall for these stupid myths in and around gun culture, you and I are just people who are consuming 10th-hand knowledge these things are not so simple as picking the "best" by browsing the internet as if purchasing a phone or a car.
 

Johny_Baba

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O bhai pls sthaap with all these 'mud test' memes, every design has its flaws in some way or other and all that we could conclude from these tests is a sealed design would perform better in conditions involving muddy environment than an open one.

BUT it doesn't mean that AK is not "IN GENERAL" a reliable design than AR because IT IS SIMPLER TO CLEAN AN AK THAN AR hands down.If your AK has gone kaput and you have got a bottlefull of water you can just remove the mag, open the top cover, remove bolt carrier and just cleanse it all off using water, put it all back together and good to go.

AR OTOH, requires more efforts to clean something that's fouled it from inside, might require cleaning brushes and lubricants and what not.You have to be absolutely sure that nothing inside is interfering with its top charging handle channel because that channel also acts as camming surface for its camming pin on bolt so if something is obstructing movement of camming pin it would simply not work.

And if your bolt carrier is struck inside the rifle and you're not able to forward it due to some reason then it's done,you won't even be able to open the rifle for cleaning using regular field strip way as its bolt carrier would be stuck between two separable receivers inside that inline buttstock tube//recoil buffer tube.

^This is why IN GENERAL AK is more reliable = more soldier friendly,more 'soldier proof' than AR and there is no denying fact about it.

Even American SF picked up AK numerous times when their AR failed them in Vietnam,Iraq,Afghanistan and what not conflicts.

1603267229205.png

US Marine with Choyneez Type-56 during vietnam war
 

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