Small arms and Light Weapons

[Adnan Jumean]

Here is Iranian MASAF rifle

 

[ezsasa]

Here is Iranian MASAF rifle
View attachment 14635

Dekh bhai Adnan..

Indx has already told you that you are welcome to post Iranian weapons in a separate thread, rather than derailing existing threads.

On a side note, if you think we don't appreciate Iranian efforts in developing indigenous weapons and equipment, we do. Please enlighten us In a separate thread.

And also...
There are some Abu azrael fans on this forum, you can post latest news about him in a separate thread.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Real Workhorse of Iranian Army ..

My favourite indian weapon is the MSMC i used it alot in black ops 2

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Educational video about G3 and FAL so does comparison ..

 

[Adnan Jumean]

Dekh bhai Adnan..

Indx has already told you that you are welcome to post Iranian weapons in a separate thread, rather than derailing existing threads.

On a side note, if you think we don't appreciate Iranian efforts in developing indigenous weapons and equipment, we do. Please enlighten us In a separate thread.

And also...
There are some Abu azrael fans on this forum, you can post latest news about him in a separate thread.

it is related to the thread

..............

 

[ezsasa]

it is related to the thread

..............

earlier i thought i was reading your post in INSAS thread hence my post. if not , my apologies .

either way do post some info on the other two points i raised.

 

[bhramos]

US Army replacing weapons..........

 

[Vinod DX9]

Why we don't consider this? Bushmaster ACR. Can fire 7.62 ...good accuracy, light weight , enough range...if Pakis opted for ARX 200 it will be a good countermeasure .

 

[indiandefencefan]

View attachment 15089 Why we don't consider this? Bushmaster ACR. Can fire 7.62 ...good accuracy, light weight , enough range...if Pakis opted for ARX 200 it will be a good countermeasure .

Two reasons not to go for it:

1. High Price (It is significantly more expensive than the M4).

2. In 2015 bushmaster issued a recall of all ACR's sold citing a fundamental design flaw. The scandal dented the ACR's reputation of reliability and and made most military's averse to using it for CT and COIN were rifle reliability is a big factor.

 

[Adioz]

US Army replacing weapons..........

How the hell are 30-round magazines going to provide covering fire?

The argument for this new kind of SAW weapon goes like so:-
M249 with high volume of firepower provides suppressive fire in enough volume but not with enough accuracy. The experienced fighters facing the M249, therefore, do not duck despite the heavy volume of firepower because they notice that the rounds are not landing close enough to them. So a new weapon is needed with better accuracy. Low volume firepower is a trade-off.

I say what the hell are marksmen for? They are the ones that need to pin down the enemy with long range accurate fire.

My favourite indian weapon is the MSMC i used it alot in black ops 2

I remember Black Ops-II having zombies, not MSMC.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Army use INSAS & BREN LMG with 30rnd magazine and decides to keep it that way :

1. For use in assault or charging.
2. Carrying heavy load cause fatigue in long run.
3. Extra ammunition carried by other members of that formation besides carrying their own cause fatigue too.

Negav is design for using Magazine so does drum, Which is the correct way ..

How the hell are 30-round magazines going to provide covering fire?.

 

[indiandefencefan]

How the hell are 30-round magazines going to provide covering fire?

The US Army's rationale behind adopting a 30 round SAW was that previously, insurgents used to specifically target soldiers equipped the M249SAW.
This was because the Support gunner was easily identifiable due to how different his/her weapon looked in comparison to his comrades' M16/M4.

After they adopted the M27IAR (HK-416) in the SAW role, this decreased considerably as the Support gunner now blends into the team because the M27 looks similar to the others' M16/M4.

Got this nugget of info from a interview of a soldier who had served in Afghanistan.

And of course there are other reasons for a 30 round mag. as @Kunal Biswas has posted above.

 

[Adioz]

The US Army's rationale behind adopting a 30 round SAW was that previously, insurgents used to specifically target soldiers equipped the M249SAW.
This was because the Support gunner was easily identifiable due to how different his/her weapon looked in comparison to his comrades' M16/M4.

After they adopted the M27IAR (HK-416) in the SAW role, this decreased considerably as the Support gunner now

blends into the team because the M27 looks similar to the others' M16/M4.

Got this nugget of info from a interview of a soldier who had served in Afghanistan.

And of course there are other reasons for a 30 round mag. as @Kunal Biswas has posted above.

Indian Army use INSAS & BREN LMG with 30rnd magazine and decides to keep it that way :

1. For use in assault or charging.
2. Carrying heavy load cause fatigue in long run.
3. Extra ammunition carried by other members of that formation besides carrying their own cause fatigue too.

Negav is design for using Magazine so does drum, Which is the correct way ..

I am confused.

I can agree with the mobility and endurance arguments, as well as the argument that the identity of the support gunner should not be given away by the profile of his weapon. But I still do not see how we can convince the enemy to stay down when we are not deploying fire-superiority. In battalion-size engagements, we can rely on MMG crews from the support company. However, what happens if its platoon-size mission (like a combat patrol)?

Maybe we can circumvent this situation by having two LMG gunners in place of one. That way, when one is reloading, the other can keep up the suppresing fire. But then again, they'll need to carry more ammo, so section endurance will still be stressed.

BTW, do we still have the same 7-3 break-up between assault and support groups? If so, what does the support group consist of, apart from the LMG gunner? Is it the RCL guy and his loader/ammo-carrier buddy? Then what about the marksman? Is he not a standard part of the infantry section? Also, do they assign a separate soldier to carry spare barrel and ammo for the LMG?

Another question, are support company platoons attached to companies for company-size missions? If so, is it done on a mission-by-mission basis?

If there is an existing thread for infantry organisation, please point me in the right direction All I could find was this:-
Infantry a research
Lets carry out further discussion on this one.

Edit: Found another dead thread. This one died before it was born :
Indian infantry

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You can find a lot of information here : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-infantry-needs-to-modernise-itself.40996/

The thread is a sticky on Indian Infantry developments ..

If there is an existing thread for infantry organisation, please point me in the right direction All I could find was this:-
Infantry a research
Lets carry out further discussion on this one.

Edit: Found another dead thread. This one died before it was born :
Indian infantry

 

[indiandefencefan]

I am confused.

I can agree with the mobility and endurance arguments, as well as the argument that the identity of the support gunner should not be given away by the profile of his weapon. But I still do not see how we can convince the enemy to stay down when we are not deploying fire-superiority. In battalion-size engagements, we can rely on MMG crews from the support company. However, what happens if its platoon-size mission (like a combat patrol)?

Maybe we can circumvent this situation by having two LMG gunners in place of one. That way, when one is reloading, the other can keep up the suppresing fire. But then again, they'll need to carry more ammo, so section endurance will still be stressed.

BTW, do we still have the same 7-3 break-up between assault and support groups? If so, what does the support group consist of, apart from the LMG gunner? Is it the RCL guy and his loader/ammo-carrier buddy? Then what about the marksman? Is he not a standard part of the infantry section? Also, do they assign a separate soldier to carry spare barrel and ammo for the LMG?

Another question, are support company platoons attached to companies for company-size missions? If so, is it done on a mission-by-mission basis?

If there is an existing thread for infantry organisation, please point me in the right direction All I could find was this:-
Infantry a research
Lets carry out further discussion on this one.

Edit: Found another dead thread. This one died before it was born :
Indian infantry

With regards to your question about firepower, the answer is no, a 30 round box magazine does not make a difference in firepower vis-a-vis a larger mag.

This is because the soldier with the SAW is able to carry the same amount of ammunition as the M27 and the M249 fire the same 5.56mm round. The only difference is that the ammo is distributed over more mags in case of the M27.

In terms of when firing during combat, while the M27's ammunition will run quicker, it holds an edge in the fact that it can reloaded MUCH quicker. The standard issue M249 is belt fed and while it does have plenty of ammo in the mag once you run out it can be a pain reloading.
Every gunner fires in bursts and while the M27 can be quickly reloaded in between bursts the M249 cannot.
The Americans realized this drawback in the M249 and hence made this:
Being able to quickly reload in the field can make more of a difference than having more ammo in the magazine.

Can't say about your other questions though.

 

[Adioz]

You can find a lot of information here : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-infantry-needs-to-modernise-itself.40996/

The thread is a sticky on Indian Infantry developments ..

Already did. I am currently reading that 37 page document on RMA by Gen Bakshi that @Ray sir quoted on that thread.

With regards to your question about firepower, the answer is no, a 30 round box magazine does not make a difference in firepower vis-a-vis a larger mag.

This is because the soldier with the SAW is able to carry the same amount of ammunition as the M27 and the M249 fire the same 5.56mm round. The only difference is that the ammo is distributed over more mags in case of the M27.

In terms of when firing during combat, while the M27's ammunition will run quicker, it holds an edge in the fact that it can reloaded MUCH quicker. The standard issue M249 is belt fed and while it does have plenty of ammo in the mag once you run out it can be a pain reloading.
Every gunner fires in bursts and while the M27 can be quickly reloaded in between bursts the M249 cannot.
The Americans realized this drawback in the M249 and hence made this:
Being able to quickly reload in the field can make more of a difference than having more ammo in the magazine.

Can't say about your other questions though.

Well, I was thinking about situations when you need to suppress the enemy for a long enough duration to allow the assault group to move to the next cover. I thought that if the cover is sparse, maybe the 30 round mag will run out before the assault team is done switching covers. But from what you are telling me, US troops did not face such a situation in combat. I did not know that support gunners only fire short bursts to keep the target suppressed. I thought they kept on firing for the entire duration they were supposed to suppress the enemy.

 

[indiandefencefan]

Well, I was thinking about situations when you need to suppress the enemy for a long enough duration to allow the assault group to move to the next cover. I thought that if the cover is sparse, maybe the 30 round mag will run out before the assault team is done switching covers. But from what you are telling me, US troops did not face such a situation in combat. I did not know that support gunners only fire short bursts to keep the target suppressed. I thought they kept on firing for the entire duration they were supposed to suppress the enemy.

This should clear things out - combat footage from afghanistan.
In combat situations the enemy is often so far away that after 7-8 shots in full auto the recoil causes the barrel to rise up to the point that it no longer points at the enemy but at the horizon. This is why bursts are used so that the gunner can re-aim at the enemy.

 

[deejai]

Its the US Marines who use the HK M27 IAR. The US Army still retains the M249 at the squad level. The Marines and the Army have seperate small arms programs.

 

[Adioz]

Its the US Marines who use the HK M27 IAR. The US Army still retains the M249 at the squad level. The Marines and the Army have seperate small arms programs.

Intrestingly, I read that US Marines equip three men in their section with the HK M27 IAR, as a replacement of one M249 gunner.

 

[deejai]

The Marines might replace their M4/M16 with the HK416. I've heard rumors that the whole IAR program was really a smokescreen for the Marines to sneak the HK416 into their system so they can easily make future purchases without any political or budgetary hassles.