- Jun 5, 2017
Normally i don't like to play @south block er..Devil's Advocate :biggrin2: , but this time i think i need to...
As Defense Expo 2-20 is coming and some big claims have been made about Stumpp Schuele Somappa bringing THEIR products in exhibition at there,i need clarifications regarding @padmaraj 's past claims on some things (assuming He has some connections with the company as he's the one who introduced the company,its products to us and put these claims on some threads here on the forum),
Starting with this picture (i've rotated it horizontaly and put my own pointers on it) that was posted by Padmaraj on starting of the thread
The upgrade kit that they've claimed to have made themselves is actually amreeki one made by Texas Instruments named 'DOG railed handguards and dust cover',a combo pack for AK pattern firearms like this Zastava Z-PAP (civilian variant of military rifle Zastava M70B1)
View attachment 42100
sources for both - http://www.texasweaponsystems.com/category-s/1879.htm
You can see same kit being installed on other AK variants in pics posted by Padmaraj on quoted posts above,as for the 'birdcage' style muzzle brake and flip-up backup iron sights,all these maal are easily awailable from many western manufacturers of these things so i am skeptical at there,too.
Oh,and this "proprietry grande launcher" from third quote (also refer to the image) seems LMT (their partner company from amreeka,Lewis Machine and Tool Company) made grenade launcher to me,which in turn is their short barreled version of famous M203 grenade launcher
compare the one in pic with this one from LMT - https://lmtdefense.com/firearms/l2x
also compare the buttstock posted in same upgrade kit with this - https://lmtdefense.com/parts/l7la2ba
Finally i checked website of SSS to see if they have all these ;upgrade kits; listed on their websites like these original manufactuers from west,the answer was No.
^Due to the things i saw i am skeptical about them being original manufacturers of the kits,or just doing 'screwdrivergiri' as we all call it here in name of calling it all 'indigeneous' (in terms of the Devil himself er...South Block :biggrin2:, selling cheetos)
(continuation of the post above)
Moving towards various upgrade kits for SVD (Dragunov Sniper Rifle) for the Indian Armed Forces,various pictures were posted by @padmaraj of upgraded SVDs with very similar kits with usual New Muzzle Brake, Railed Handguards ,Modular Buttstocks and Railed Dust Covers Combos , Rail-Mounted Folding Bipod - - all these things are easily available from western manufacturers in international market,
again,skeptical here if it's really 'indigeneous' or just 'selling cheetos' due to my findings of my post above in this thread,
then these posts
preety impressive,,i must say,
though due to my skepticism arosen by my findings in first post,i am still not ready to believe if it's true indigeneous effort to manufacture an assault rifle here or just another 'cheeto' because same western manufacturers sell full weapons upgrade package there which can turn some basic rifle like this SKS
View attachment 42101
this thing = sks action painted black + all other parts are aftermarket,from the chassy/receiver to magazine (it's AR mag modified to take 20 rounds of 7.62 x 39mm) to gas system and so) + trigger group is AR-esque too and so
but at 'heart' it is still an sks
^So again,the rifle in pic in quote seems some sort of very similar package which is inspired from Galil ACE with a new gas system on it for regular AK,from west as well ?
(continuation of the post above)
The only product which SSS has publically revealed and that is there on their website as well is their bolt action rifles VIPER and SABER,both are impressive like their Short Stroke AK rifle,perhaps more than that as these are first privately manufactured rifles in India chambered in 7.62 NATO and .338 Lapua Magnum respectively.
and yet,due to skeptism from beginning,i am wondering if these SSS "made" rifles really are from SKS or actually 'cheetos'
as indeed western manufacturers are making virtually everything there that can upgrade a basic bolt action rifle like this lee-enfield
to something like this
View attachment 42102
^a lee-enfield upgraded with replacement barrel and a modular rifle chassy and other things
- so WHAT IF even rifles brandised by the company are not actually indigeneous but merely 'cheetos' from west ?
^^^all these things raise a lot of doubts in my minds regarding claims made by the company,calling it all 'indigeneous efforts' from very beginning,mainly due to what i am able to find from internet regarding first 'upgrade kit' for AK and equating many things from western market of small arms to the products of the company.
And no,i would not have minded it all whether it is indigeneous or simple 'cheetos' as ultimately it is benefiting our boys in uniforms , but i do think the company is not being honest with their approach ,or simply being too secretive regarding their achivements.
Comparing it all with Punj Lloyd Rakshak,they openly have accepted joint venture with IWI and is a genuine ;screwdrivergiri; from very start and even they are not shying away from it and i appreciate it wholeheartly,unfortunately i am not able to express same feelings towards SSS due to many doubts regarding their claims of indegeniouty and comparisons made with western markets of these products.
So coming back to my main topic,
I really hope to see and hear some HONEST things regarding company's products reveals in upcoming Defense Expo 2020 which would be resolving many if not all my doubts regarding the company's claims and outputs in terms of products (without raising further such doubts,of course).
@Johny_Baba I'm just ending what you had started. Feel free to correct me.
So few facts.
1. Almost all the stocks used on SSS's sniper rifles are either straight from a Canadian/US company named MDT (Modular Driven Technologies) or are just their knockoffs. Especially ESS, LSS and ACC stocks of MDT.
2. Actions on sniper rifles are probably one of the typical Remington 700 pattern bolt actions, plethora of which are available in US. Also is uses the common AICS magazine.
3. Same goes with trigger. Typical aftermarket trigger for Remingtons.
4. Pistol grip used on sniper rifles and all of the P-72s are also from a US company; and surprisingly its name is MDT.
5. As you mentioned, all the AK modification are actually from Texas Weapon Systems, their Dog Leg series.
6. The pistol grip used on the modified AKs is from Hogue. Again USA.
7. The folding stock in the modified AKs is in fact a Viper MOD-1, made by Strike Industries, USA.
8. The folding hinge system used on modified AKs is either the one made by Sylvan Arms, USA or it's knockoff.
All the claims of in-house development and having IPRs are more or less just bluffs. They are doing what our OFBs have done since their inception; copying and labelling StAtE oF tHe ArT. The only difference is that OFB can't even do that properly.
Problem here is not that they are copying foreign design or working in joint venture. The problem here is that they are just using our emotions and enthusiasm of indigenous stuff and #aatmanirbharbharat for their marketing. Not to mention the lack of worthy competition and level of firearm related knowledge in general populace.
So ya, cheetos.
@Lonewarrior Can you find some info on their other products too like (a)Upgrade Kit for SVD (Dragunov Sniper Rifle) and most importantly (b) P-72 rifle and variants under that line ?
'specially I don't get many things regarding to P-72 ,things like where is magazine release mechanism on it ? no button or even paddle is seen to confirm either of two style of magazine locking / release mechanism on it,
then they haven't shown any proper view to confirm gas operated reloading design on it (although claimed it to be short-stroke gas piston type) and finally no pics of it disassembled or its internals anywhere to see type of action on it - whether it is of a rotating bolt design or some other (saying because at once i seriously thought that it may be a tilting bolt design,something similar to FAL or SKS),last but not least no bolt hold open device (though on 7.62x39mm version that feeds from AK magazine it's understandable but what about 5.56 NATO one ?)...one thing that is kinda confirmed is reciprocating charging handle which is able to change its side via disassembly - kinda like SCAR here.
Sorry I just missed your post, my bad. Sure, I can.
A. Modifications of SVD.
1. A modified LSS XL Gen-2 stock from MDT in place of original. Modified because they made it foldable, the original is fixed.
2. Pistol grip is the same that's offered by MDT.
3. It's hard to say about the top rails and handguard assembly, as there aren't much media related to SSS's SVD available.
B. Now coming to P-72s.
1. The buttstock assembly is the same used on Masada/ACR. In some pics it seems like they tried to replicate that by 3D printing. Design wise, ditto.
2. In some pics the pistol grip is the one from MDT and in others it's the good ol' A2 grip of AR-15.
3. I'm pretty sure that an AK Fire Control Group is used. How? Guessing by the position of hammer and trigger pins. Also if you look closely, the fire selector switch's "wings" are reversed on both sides, a telltale sign of Kalashnikovs.
4. It uses AK mags. In some pics it's Magpul and in some it's PRO MAG (ya pro mag ).
The magazine release is same paddle type, just the paddle levers are turned 90° instead of straight. As an AK mag, there is no Bolt Hold Open.
5. The bolt carrier group seems like a modified AK one. Modifications including a new bolt carrier with charging handle and no attached bolt carrier extension or piston. This also means they changed the recoil spring assembly.
6. Not sure, but it can be a short stroke piston operated. Not a big deal, given there past experience with Dragunov which is also a SS piston rifle. The piston heads of both AK and SVD are of 10-12mm diameter, so again it can used there.
7. The upper-lower-handguard seems bit dubious to me. In some pics it looks like stamped sheet steel, milled aluminium in some and interestingly the texture in some pics resemble 3D printed plastic.
Again these are what I deduced solely from some pics. I can be totally wrong here. I'm not claiming something. Anyone can feel free to correct me.
Oh that is magazine release on P-72 ?
It just looks so...awkward to me.Kinda short and ;less tactical; for a supposed MODERN rifle.
IMHO they should've just let original AK style paddle on it with semi-circular tabs on side for tactical reloads,something like Beryl
View attachment 51798
looks simple but works great.
or if they wanted something modern looking stuff,then a simple stuff like this would have been much better over what they're giving currently
View attachment 51803
can serve like regular AK magazine release as well as tactical one
some other alternative designs that i found from google
View attachment 51804
this one's on CMMG Mk-47 ;Mutant; which is 7.62x39mm AR-15,feeding from same AK mags too
View attachment 51805
View attachment 51806
This is just my guessing, may be I'm completely wrong.
On 1 there seems to be the gas block assembly. 3 is the charging handle, which means it's the top most position of the bolt carrier. Now it you look in the area between bolt carrier and gas block; 2, there seems to be nothing. If there was any carrier extension like thing, then those slot would have been blocked.
Hhmm this is the same Kalashnikov type rifle they shown previously during Defense Expo 2020
even pics were posted here or on thread of DefExpo2020
I shall give my observation on the weapon here via pics
View attachment 56708View attachment 56709
->My observation is they seem to have designed this weird looking receiver here ( or maybe another ;cheeto; ? import-screwdriver-resell ),to me am not sure whether it's stamped steel receiver design or milled receiver as it happen to have a machined block for mounting AR-15 style buttstock and pistol grip but also have got some form of trunnion block to mount barrel (and probably handguards,too ?)
->Seems they took some cue points from Galil ACE and put this (probably stamped ?) magazine well section below the receiver,though i don't get the purpose of it for an AK style "rock-lock" type of magazine,and at the end there is ambidextrous dual paddle magazine release,of course modified AK type.
->As said before,Texas Weapons Systems "Dog Tag" railed hinged top cover + handguards combo = cheeto
BUT they seem to ahve modified it by maybe fixing a small metal block inside it to make it work with takedown pin type of receiver (though imagine a hinged dust cover as "upper" section of a receiver huh ?) and maybe recoil spring too is mounted on same pinned block thing inside receiver ? my speculations
->Keyhole for AK style fire selector on receiver,
Ok my gripe is they did so "mehnat" in making this custom receiver of AK (or in importing it) but they couldn't provide a thumb operated fire selector ? Even current gen Arsenal AKs we import from Bulgaria happen to have it on their M1F41 and M5F41 variants,Galil type of course
As they haven't shown any fire selector on it now it's hard to say whether it'll be having Krebs Custom type finger tabs on it for tactical operations etc
@Lonewarrior bhai anything else you'd like to add ?
Damn man, that's some serious abstract art.
You left no space for me to doodle.
Anyway, I'll manage with this
View attachment 56715
1. Standard A2 birdcage flash hider.
2. Same 45° gas block, as used on almost all AKs.
3. Most probably a stock barrel from an AK. If you look closely then between the second and third M-Lok slot from the gas block there is the handguard attachment point of an AK.
4. New gas tube. So +1 for innovation there.
5. Dogleg rail and top cover from Texas Weapon Systems.
6. Where the lower and handguard is riveted together one can clearly see the stock AK trunnion.
7. Can't say much about the bolt, but I can bet it's an AK bolt with redesigned charging handle.
6. Regular AK mag, though slightly different mag release. May be they aren't aware that AKs use Nose-in-rock-back magazines, not drop free mags, so there in no use of a mag release that can be activated by trigger finger.
7. This time I'm 100% sure the FCG is straight from an AK.
8. Dust cover retention method is new. It's either a cross pin or something akin to SVD dust cover.
9. Standard AR grip, to be precise MDT pistol grip.
10. Standard AR buffer tube.
11. Can't confirm the exact make, but a typical AR buttstock.
It's funny how at first they were claiming short stroke piston and now they are saying long stroke "to make it as relaible as Kalashnikov".
That's the biggest problem.maybe it's better to create the questionnaire first, on this thread.
But before the exercise starts have some ground rules, so that people who are involved don't go all over the place.
This has been the standard operation for many Indian Industries, I was their fanboy initially as well.But no matter what we say, one must agree their business plan is fcuking brilliant.
1. Import parts from foreign OEMs. Important point is, that firm shouldn't be Murican. As ITAR will prove to be a serious hurdle.
2. Assemble everything here.
3. Create hype using chauvinism.
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