Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[Pratap]

These are women from " Madra Janapad" and though now do not follow Aryan culture and rituals and can not be called Arya women, they certainly resemble Vedic age women biologically. Original Indo Aryan women looked like these

Now I understand why Sanskrit literature is full of praise for " Sundaris" of Gandhara and Madra.

 

[Pratap]

@atheisthindu

You are just a typical south asian who likes to exaggerate differences.

Wrong. I have already said that genetically Pashtuns are quite close to Dalits of TN.I am a guy who believes in Indo Aryan and dravidians being one culturally and to a large extent genetically. Within this Indic group, some have clearly more Aryan genes than others.
You are a typical Indian who loves to deny differences. I have seen mentally retarded people claiming that there is no difference between Jammu and Patna in looks.

. I have seen so many Pakistanis and Canada and they are quite indistinguishable from Indians mostly.

How many Indians in Canada were of UP, Bihar and MP? How many of them were SC , ST and OBCs of these regions.?

Never seen a Pakistani who was lighter than me

You never saw Pashtuns then.

People from J&K and Himachal are on average, lighter than "normal" Pakistanis.

Slightly but I am talking about normal Biharis and Pakistanis. You are right about color but I never talked about color. The people of Kashmir on average have 32pc of ASI but Jats of Sindh only 25-30.

Also you are overplaying the correlation between caste and appearance. Low caste North indians look fairer than high caste south indians on average

Stupid logic. I am not saying that caste was made on basis of skin color but you are too fool to understand complex process. You Indians can not see anything beyond color.
Bengali SCs certainly have less frequency of R haplogroup than South Indian Brahmins.

BTW, can you deny that Khatris of Punjab are " fairer " than Valmikis ?

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

@atheisthindu

You never saw Pashtuns then

You've never seen me either. I'm lighter than most middle easterners I've seen. Pashtuns are darker than "true" middle easterners like iranians, arabs, north africans, etc... Northwest Indians can often look very distinctly non south asian. In Jammu, my phenotype is not quite rare. I have a friend with blonde hair and freckles from Jammu.

Look at this picture. It was taken from a Punjabi university hosting an Afghan team.
Left side, in white are Indians(probably mostly punjabis), and in red are Afghans. I don't see a huge difference tbh?

 

[Pratap]

You've never seen me either. I'm lighter than most middle easterners I've seen. Pashtuns are darker than "true" middle easterners like iranians, arabs, north africans, etc... Northwest Indians can often look very distinctly non south asian. In Jammu, my phenotype is not quite rare. I have a friend with blonde hair and freckles from Jammu.

Look at this picture. It was taken from a Punjabi university hosting an Afghan team.
Left side, in white are Indians(probably mostly punjabis), and in red are Afghans. I don't see a huge difference tbh?

My brother studies at SMVDU and I know how brown haired Dogras are common there.
Even then, if 100 Pashtuns are made to stand against similar number of Dogras, I can tell the difference. Even in your picture, I can see the difference.

Salaria the man who runs Hotel in Jammu looks like President of Belarus.

 

[Pratap]

Pashtuns are darker than "true" middle easterners like iranians, arabs, north africans, etc.

Because they have high ASI component but some of them are descendants of Scythians and are remarkably closer to whites.

 

[Pratap]

Pashtun singer

Another pashtun woman

@atheisthindu @TrueSpirit1

As you can see both of them are having same skin color but anyone will say that singer in first picture is literally" Apsara" because of her features.

 

[Pratap]

@Bhadra see this Kanya of Gandhara

R1a1a is as high as 70 percent among Pashtuns and same frequency is found among khatris and Poles or Russians.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

@Bhadra see this Kanya of Gandhara

Cute I guess.

I looked up the name "Salaria" ( a dogra last name) for curiosity's sake and found these faces

Interesting.......

 

[Pratap]

@atheisthindu

When I went to Jammu to my brother's college, I happened to see this man's photo in his hotel whose surname was Salaria

Compare him with this President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko

As you can see , both have similar features and with little changes, Salaria passes as an European. Aryan origins.

 

[Bhadra]

 

[Pratap]

If you want to be stuck in nineteenth century, that is not my problem.

 

[bennedose]

Comparing heads shapes, faces and hair colour is 19th century science and I can see that 19th century science does not seem to be a problem on this thread.

So let me post specific references from 19th century "science". The following is a summary of racist trash mistakenly called "science"

Initially, afterSanskrit was "discovered" by Europeans they believed that "Aryams" must have originated in India. This is what Huxley wrote in 1890

But where was this home of the Aryans? When the labours of modern philologists began, Sanskrit was the most archaic of all the Aryan languages known to them. It appeared to present the qualifications required in the parental or primitive Aryan. Brilliant Uhlans made a charge at this opening. The scientific imagination seated the primitive Aryans in the valley of the Ganges; and showed, as in a vision, the successive columns, guided by enterprising Brahmins, which set out thence to people the regions of the western world with Greeks and Celts and Germans.

European "scientists" did not like this ONE BIT. How could such marvelous knowledge start among blackies? And yes, North Indians were als considered black and inferior.

Huxley wrote: (linke below)

So the patent fact that men of Aryan speech presented widely diverse racial characters was explained away by maintaining that the physical differentiation was post-Aryan; to put it broadly, that the Aryans in Hindoo-Koosh-Pamir were truly of one race; but that, while one colony, subjected to the sweltering heat of the Gangetic plains, had fined down and darkened into the Bengalee, another had bleached and shot up, under the cool and misty skies of the north, into the semblance of Pomeranian Grenadiers; or of blue-eyed, fair-skinned, six-foot Scotch Highlanders. I do not know that any of the Uhlans who fought so vigorously under this flag are left now. I doubt if any one is prepared to say that he believes that the influence of external conditions, alone, accounts for the wide physical differences between Englishmen and Bengalese. So far as India is concerned, the internal evidence of the old literature sufficiently proves that the Aryan invaders were "white" men. It is hardly to be doubted that they intermixed with the dark Dravidian aborigines; and that the high-caste Hindoos are what they are in virtue of the Aryan blood which they have inherited,3 and of [282] the selective influence of their surroundings operating on the mixture.

A man called Latham came up (around 1850 I think) with the Sarmatian Hypothesis that suggested that Aryans must have come from Russia - as has been suggested on this thread 164 years after Latham. That is not 21st century science. It is 19th century theory. Here is a screen grab of the relevant part of Latham's Sarmatian Hypothesis


Aldous Huxley was not totally happy with the Sarmatian hypothesis. he believed that the purest race were blonds and therefore he added to the Sarmatian hypothesis saying that Aryans originated in Sweden and were blonds

Some excerpts:
The Aryan Question (1890)

Thus I think that the most plausible hypothetical answers which can be given to the two questions which we put at starting are these. [305] There was and is an Aryan race–that is to say, the characteristic modes of speech, termed Aryan, were developed among the blond long-heads alone however much some of them may have been modified by the importation of non-Aryan elements. As to the "home" of the Aryan race, it was in Europe, and lay chiefly east of the central highlands and west of the Ural. From this region it spread west, along the coasts of the North Sea to our islands, where, probably, it met the brunet long-heads; to France, where it found both these and the brunet short-heads; to Switzerland and South Germany, where it impinged on the brunet short-heads; to Italy, where brunet short-heads seem to have abounded in the north and long-heads in the south; and to the Balkan peninsula, about the earliest inhabitants of which we know next to nothing. There are two ways to Asia Minor, the one over the Bosphorus and the other through the passes of the Caucasus, and the Aryans may well have utilised both. Finally, the south-eastern tribes probably spread themselves gradually over west Turkestan, and, after evolving the primitive Indo-Iranian dialect, eventually colonized Persia and Hindostan, where their speech developed into its final forms. On this hypothesis, the notion that the Celts and the Teutons migrated from about Pamir and the Hindoo-Koosh is as far from the truth as the supposition that the Indo-Iranians migrated from [306] Scandinavia. It supposes that the blond long-heads, in what may be called their nascent Aryan stage, that is before their dialects had taken on the full Aryan characteristics, were spread over a wide region which is, conventionally, European; but which, from the point of view of the physical geographer, is rather to be regarded as a continuation of Asia. Moreover, it is quite possible and even probable, that the blond long-heads may have arrived in Turkestan before their language had reached, or at any rate passed beyond, the stage of primitive Aryan; and that the whole process of differentiation into Indo-Iranian took place during the long ages of their residence in the basin of the Oxus. Thus, the question whether the seat of the primitive Aryans was in Europe, or in Asia, becomes very much a debate about geographical terminology.

I think these theories are laughable bullshit. read tha long ppaper by Aldous Huxley and you can have your fill of why people look the way they do using 19th century nonsensical methodology. If one chooses to call this sciece - that is fine with me, but I stil think it's laughable trash.

Those who wish to believe it are welcome to do that - I am not setting out to change anyone's mind. I know what I know and I know what I believe.

Sorry to have interrupted. Please lets have some more pretty girlie pics and call it science.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Aryan Invention Theory

 

[Bhadra]

Comparing heads shapes, faces and hair colour is 19th century science and I can see that 19th century science does not seem to be a problem on this thread.

So let me post specific references from 19th century "science". The following is a summary of racist trash mistakenly called "science"

Initially, afterSanskrit was "discovered" by Europeans they believed that "Aryams" must have originated in India. This is what Huxley wrote in 1890


European "scientists" did not like this ONE BIT. How could such marvelous knowledge start among blackies? And yes, North Indians were als considered black and inferior.

Huxley wrote: (linke below)



A man called Latham came up (around 1850 I think) with the Sarmatian Hypothesis that suggested that Aryans must have come from Russia - as has been suggested on this thread 164 years after Latham. That is not 21st century science. It is 19th century theory. Here is a screen grab of the relevant part of Latham's Sarmatian Hypothesis


Aldous Huxley was not totally happy with the Sarmatian hypothesis. he believed that the purest race were blonds and therefore he added to the Sarmatian hypothesis saying that Aryans originated in Sweden and were blonds

Some excerpts:
The Aryan Question (1890)


I think these theories are laughable bullshit. read tha long ppaper by Aldous Huxley and you can have your fill of why people look the way they do using 19th century nonsensical methodology. If one chooses to call this sciece - that is fine with me, but I stil think it's laughable trash.

Those who wish to believe it are welcome to do that - I am not setting out to change anyone's mind. I know what I know and I know what I believe.

Sorry to have interrupted. Please lets have some more pretty girlie pics and call it science.

But @Pratap says that is 19th and 20th century crap but he is into 21st century...

And his science like sorcery says that Aryans invaded India and he is an European..

 

[Bhadra]

Everyone want themselves to be called Aryans :

 

[Bhadra]

What Romila has to say - Changed mind :

 

[bennedose]

But @Pratap says that is 19th and 20th century crap but he is into 21st century...

And his science like sorcery says that Aryans invaded India and he is an European..

Mr Pratap's politically incorrect views of the ugliness of South Indians and belief that the "fair and handsome" appearance of certain people in the Indian northwest comes from Russia (and not via any other route), his ignorance of history, especially the history of south India tells an interesting story about him.

If he is Indian he is not doing India a favor. If he is not Indian it doesn't matter. Loads of Pakistanis speak like him in the way they express kinship with North Indians and believe they are separate from South Indians. If Indians believe they have kinship with Pakistanis and not with the south - that is their prerogative, even if it is not good news for the country. The view ignores reality, but then Pakistan itself is a nation of people who choose to ignore reality.

The original idea of Pakistan or "Dinia" envisaged by Chaudhury Rehmat Ali included large parts of North India but mostly excluded the south. The idea of Pakistan coincided with the western idea of fair skinned Aryans as separate from the cooked up "race" of heathen black Dravidians. So the ideas expressed by Pratapji are facts as believed to be true by a large segment of Pakistanis. One of the plans was to have a Pakistan from Punjab to Bihar - including all of UP, and the dream still exists - judging by the way Pakistanis express their kinship with 'fair and handsome' northern Indians as opposed to 'ugly black' south Indians.

Here is a map of Dinia
http://www.humsafar.info/pics/chra/chra03.jpg

There must be at least some Indians who agree with that Pakistani viewpoint and those Indians need to think very carefully about what India means to them It must not be forgotten that South India had many ancient and independent states and they are a proud people. Invaders from the northwest came to the south last and least. Those Indians who want to separate themselves from south Indian history and wish to embrace a version of history that the creators of Pakistan find convenient are free to do that - but it is necessary to point out where those views come from. India is bigger and older than a restricted Pakistani version.

Add to this the constant refrain that India was a weak nation and always ruled by others - again statements that are nonsensical on many counts, each of which I will be glad to rip up and throw out as and when they are brought up. But the refrain that India was always ruled is another one that comes from our beggar friends across the border and that seems to be a view that Mr Pratap shares. That does not mean he is Pakistani - he just agrees with their viewpoint and disagrees with information that do not coincide with or support his views.

There is a problem with arguing with such viewpoints. The people who make them are not interested in looking at anything that goes against their viewpoint. That is OK. People are free to believe what they want - and there is no need to argue with uninformed, biased and ignorant posts couched in pseudo intellectual rhetoric.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Mr Pratap's politically incorrect views of the ugliness of South Indians and belief that the "fair and handsome" appearance of certain people in the Indian northwest comes from Russia (and not via any other route), his ignorance of history, especially the history of south India tells an interesting story about him.

If he is Indian he is not doing India a favor. If he is not Indian it doesn't matter. Loads of Pakistanis speak like him in the way they express kinship with North Indians and believe they are separate from South Indians. If Indians believe they have kinship with Pakistanis and not with the south - that is their prerogative, even if it is not good news for the country. The view ignores reality, but the Pakistan itself is a nation of people who choose to ignore reality.

The original idea of Pakistan or "Dinia" envisaged by Chaudhury Rehmat Ali included large parts of North India but mostly excluded the south. The ida of Pakistan coincided with the western idea of fair skinned Aryans as separate from the cooked up race of Dravidians. So the ideas expressed by Pratapji are facts as believed to be true by a large segment of Pakistanis. One of the plans was to have a Pakistan from Punjab to Bihar - incuding all of UP, and the dream still exists - judging by theway Pakistani express their kinship with fair and handsome northern Indians as opposed to ugly black south Indians. There must be at least some Indians who agree with that Pakistani viewpoint and those Indians need to think very carefully about what India means.

Here is a map of Dinia
http://www.humsafar.info/pics/chra/chra03.jpg

Add to this the constant refrain that India was a weak nation and always ruled by others - again statements that are nonsensical on many counts, each of which I will be glad to rip up and throw out as and when they are brought up. But the refrain that India was always ruled is another one that comes from our beggar friends across the border and that seems to be a view that Mr Pratap shares. That does not mean he is Pakistani - he just agrees with their viewpoint and disagrees with information that do not coincide with or support his views.

There is a problem with arguing with such viewpoints. The people who make them are not interested in looking at anything that goes against their viewpoint. That is OK. People are free to believe what the want - and there is no need to argue with uninformed, biased and ignorant posts couched in pseudo intellectual rhetoric.

Bro, just ignore him. He is banned now. That guy was had such an inferiority complex and self- hatred that it was unhealthy and abnormal.
No, north Indians don't express any kinship with Pakistanis. We hate them much more than South Indians do because we are intimate with them. Our grandfathers have passed on stories about the partition and their cruelty toward hindus. If anything, North Indians want to distance ourselves from Pakistanis. For us, it's a gaali to be mistaken as a Paki. You don't know how much bad blood there is between North Indians and Pakistanis.

 

[bennedose]

Bro, just ignore him. He is banned now. That guy was had such an inferiority complex and self- hatred that it was unhealthy and abnormal.
No, north Indians don't express any kinship with Pakistanis. We hate them much more than South Indians do because we are intimate with them. Our grandfathers have passed on stories about the partition and their cruelty toward hindus. If anything, North Indians want to distance ourselves from Pakistanis. For us, it's a gaali to be mistaken as a Paki. You don't know how much bad blood there is between North Indians and Pakistanis.

Thanks for the info. I will ignore him henceforth. No need to make a defensive statement - I know what Indians are like, north, south, east or west.

I had a specific reason for replying to his views the way I did - I am an old hand in such internet discussions (from 1997 to be precise!) . Sometimes a Pakistani poses as an Indian and expresses such views - Indians generally don't although some categories of Indian do - and I can identify the group. So my intention was merely to prod him to reveal his background. Hence my vague and general post without making a specific accusation. I will drop the subject - he needed banning IMHO. No more from me.

 

[Bhadra]

Bro, just ignore him. He is banned now. That guy was had such an inferiority complex and self- hatred that it was unhealthy and abnormal.
No, north Indians don't express any kinship with Pakistanis. We hate them much more than South Indians do because we are intimate with them. Our grandfathers have passed on stories about the partition and their cruelty toward hindus. If anything, North Indians want to distance ourselves from Pakistanis. For us, it's a gaali to be mistaken as a Paki. You don't know how much bad blood there is between North Indians and Pakistanis.

Oh, if Pratap is banned how will this thread run.

Who will entertain me with lovely photos of those pure Aryan chiks of Afghanistan and Iran and of course the Dogras?

If I recall correctly, Adi Shankaracharya used to be called "Dravida" by other seers including his Guru Gaudapada. Shanakra also used to refer himself to as "Dravida".