Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[Vamsi]

Sarasvati were in full thrust at the time of RV composition that was well pre 3500bce.

See those assumptions by these AIT wallas.....for them their assumptions are truth

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

See those assumptions by these AIT wallas.....for them their assumptions are truth

Don't waste your time. Rather see this.

@Indo-Aryan do you have link to this paper?

 

[gutenmorgen]

Don't waste your time. Rather see this.

View attachment 171336

@Indo-Aryan do you have link to this paper?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284019945_Upper_Palaeolithic_genomes_reveal_deep_roots_of_modern_Eurasians

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284019945_Upper_Palaeolithic_genomes_reveal_deep_roots_of_modern_Eurasians

Over a discussion heard that this chg in that ehg is coming via rors and some jaats like populations which proves that chg ancestry locus is deep within the subcontinent. As well there is an old Indian node giving birth to ehg.

Thanks for sharing that paper though.

 

[gutenmorgen]

Over a discussion heard that this chg in that ehg is coming via rors and some jaats like populations which proves that chg ancestry locus is deep within the subcontinent. As well there is an old Indian node giving birth to ehg.

View attachment 171401

Thanks for sharing that paper though.

Do you have any link for that discussion? I believe without ancient Indian dna samples showing such transmission, it won't be accepted in the mainstream.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

Do you have any link for that discussion? I believe without ancient Indian dna samples showing such transmission, it won't be accepted in the mainstream.

Actually there is more chg in India than caucasus. You might want to check allensoft et al 2022. But that as much as I am able to re collect models chg as iran_n type. Wait for few days will try to share the audio stream over a group voice session and I happened to be there randomly.

 

[gutenmorgen]

Actually there is more chg in India than caucasus. You might want to check allensoft et al 2022. But that as much as I am able to re collect models chg as iran_n type. Wait for few days will try to share the audio stream over a group voice session and I happened to be there randomly.

Isn't it likely that those models are reading the IVC ancestry component as chg or something?

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

Isn't it likely that those models are reading the IVC ancestry component as chg or something?

That is quite subjective. Its more like iran_n/India_n component similar but yet different. There is no pure chg in that steppe also. Its combination of chg-ehg.

 

[gutenmorgen]

That is quite subjective. Its more like iran_n/India_n component similar but yet different. There is no pure chg in that steppe also. Its combination of chg-ehg.

So, I skimmed through allensoft. According to the paper, " The CHG related ancestry likely reflects both CHG and Iranian Neolithic signals, explaining relatively high levels in south asia."

Pre IVC sample sequencing, neolithic iran was thought of as the major source of ancestry for south asians. Now we kinda know that it came from IVC which split off from early Iranian hunter gatherers, pre 10000 BC.

IMO, what the paper is saying is that we got this high CHG from IVC and steppe ancestry. I think thats why pakistan averages a bit higher than India because lesser steppe ancestry in southern India will pull the overall averages a bit lower + maybe marginally lower steppe in northern India relative to pakistan + maybe marginally lower ASI/onge-related in pakistan relative to northern India.

 

[Kumaoni]

It is fake. End of story. Only Aryas are Hindus.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

So, I skimmed through allensoft. According to the paper, " The CHG related ancestry likely reflects both CHG and Iranian Neolithic signals, explaining relatively high levels in south asia."

Pre IVC sample sequencing, neolithic iran was thought of as the major source of ancestry for south asians. Now we kinda know that it came from IVC which split off from early Iranian hunter gatherers, pre 10000 BC.

IMO, what the paper is saying is that we got this high CHG from IVC and steppe ancestry. I think thats why pakistan averages a bit higher than India because lesser steppe ancestry in southern India will pull the overall averages a bit lower + maybe marginally lower steppe in northern India relative to pakistan + maybe marginally lower ASI/onge-related in pakistan relative to northern India.

The golden rule is that areas with largest variety and population is the source. Anything else requires evidence to the contrary.

So now allensoft et al models chg as 60-65% Iran haplogrouping-like ancestry that is the dominant ancestry of all Indians. Then until 10K years before present Indians and Iranians were a single Hg group.

Something to note about Rakhigarhi female in case you all have missed.

 

[gutenmorgen]

The golden rule is that areas with largest variety and population is the source. Anything else requires evidence to the contrary.

So now allensoft et al models chg as 60-65% Iran haplogrouping-like ancestry that is the dominant ancestry of all Indians. Then until 10K years before present Indians and Iranians were a single Hg group.

Something to note about Rakhigarhi female in case you all have missed.

View attachment 171477

Sorry for sounding like a broken record but it would be great if you could provide links or at least titles of the papers that you mention in your replies.

I agree with that assessment of diversity point being the source however many people, including researchers, say that higher STR diversity in the Indian context can also be explained due to historically higher population and not necessarily due to earlier point of introduction. I cant say if that's fair or if there is some heavy bias. Same goes for R1a and derived lineages. South asia has the highest diversity.

Source population for both IVC and Iran N/CHG were the same people and perhaps originated in India or were present here before the IVC split. That is something we ll have to see once (if) more ancient Indian dna becomes available. My guess is that such population was the base population at least in Northern India before IVC. But then again, it could be an Onge related population as well. We can't say for sure before such evidence materialises. Some PGW samples should become available in the coming months but pre neolithic dna would be hard to come by in our climate.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

Sorry for sounding like a broken record but it would be great if you could provide links or at least titles of the papers that you mention in your replies.

I agree with that assessment of diversity point being the source however many people, including researchers, say that higher STR diversity in the Indian context can also be explained due to historically higher population and not necessarily due to earlier point of introduction. I cant say if that's fair or if there is some heavy bias. Same goes for R1a and derived lineages. South asia has the highest diversity.

Source population for both IVC and Iran N/CHG were the same people and perhaps originated in India or were present here before the IVC split. That is something we ll have to see once (if) more ancient Indian dna becomes available. My guess is that such population was the base population at least in Northern India before IVC. But then again, it could be an Onge related population as well. We can't say for sure before such evidence materialises. Some PGW samples should become available in the coming months but pre neolithic dna would be hard to come by in our climate.

Could be due to higher population do not deny it but there were no major population replacements back here as it happened elsewhere and the Tmrca dates do not add up Finally we have the Iranian hg type ancestry to be around 18k years old. Neeraj Rai also said r1a markers in India are around 18kybp or so. We are waiting for his paper though.

btw As of now the original chg is like IranN samples in Ganj dareh zagros. Onge they are using as proxy for aasi from what I understand. Indians are a mix of 100s of indigenous populations Aasi doesn’t exist as some people think it does. Being said the current modelling of AnI AsI are ridiculous. I mean there are the communities with HINDU ancestry show up in south east Asia with 100% AsI but are mainly r1a haplogroup.

I had share a few readings wrt to the latest developments going on if you have not followed them yet.

Proto-Indo-European from NW Indian subcontinent, Iran or SC Asia - A Proposal based on Genetics

The genetic link between the ancestors of IVC and Steppe eneolithic provides a compelling case for identifying the common ancestors of PIE

a-genetics.blogspot.com

Marija Gimbutas's Kurgan Hypothesis rejected by Harvard

Marija Gimbutas's Kurgan Hypothesis rejected by Harvard based on absence of steppe ancestry in ancient Anatolia.

a-genetics.blogspot.com

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

In my opinion we need to be able to model those ba greeks armenians and or albanians with Sindhu Sarasvati ancestry to confirm this so that a genetic cline should show up from eastern Iran to Greece. But for that we will need more ancient dnas and right now there are none other than a female gd13a good joke. This chg related ancestry is the key to everything what we need are good coverage Sindhu Sarasvati samples from 3-10k bce and this debate will be settled for good.

 

[gutenmorgen]

In my opinion we need to be able to model those ba greeks armenians and or albanians with Sindhu Sarasvati ancestry to confirm this so that a genetic cline should show up from eastern Iran to Greece. But for that we will need more ancient dnas and right now there are none other than a female gd13a good joke. This chg related ancestry is the key to everything what we need are good coverage Sindhu Sarasvati samples from 3-10k bce and this debate will be settled for good.

I agree. Some debate could be settled with just the PGW samples though. If its the same as IVC, or IVC + source IVC, or IVC + onge related, then it makes it clear that Aryas + Vedas etc are completely indegenous and it further makes some insights into IVC culture, religion and language. If not, i.e., if we find steppe, then the debate will continue. From what I can guess from Rai's interviews, there is no steppe in those samples. I hope he publishes soon.

Btw, is the south east asian sample you are talking about, the same as the one they found in Cambodia? The one with 50% south Indian ancestry? Please provide a link to the related paper.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

I agree. Some debate could be settled with just the PGW samples though. If its the same as IVC, or IVC + source IVC, or IVC + onge related, then it makes it clear that Aryas + Vedas etc are completely indegenous and it further makes some insights into IVC culture, religion and language. If not, i.e., if we find steppe, then the debate will continue. From what I can guess from Rai's interviews, there is no steppe in those samples. I hope he publishes soon.

Btw, is the south east asian sample you are talking about, the same as the one they found in Cambodia? The one with 50% south Indian ancestry? Please provide a link to the related paper.

As much as I remember that you had find in one of the posts the link I have already given you.
Rigveda is fully indigenous to Bharat. Arya btw is identity of Indo iranians exclusively. Not other Indo-e tribes.
Did you not read steppe is already rejected.

The Southern Arc paper and it's data upends the Steppe Theory in multiple ways

What does this new paper and its samples mean for the spread of Indo European and Indo Iranian?

a-genetics.blogspot.com

 

[gutenmorgen]

As much as I remember that you had find in one of the posts the link I have already given you.
Rigveda is fully indigenous to Bharat. Arya btw is identity of Indo iranians exclusively. Not other Indo-e tribes.
Did you not read steppe is already rejected.

The Southern Arc paper and it's data upends the Steppe Theory in multiple ways

What does this new paper and its samples mean for the spread of Indo European and Indo Iranian?

a-genetics.blogspot.com

Yup. I have read that but the typical claim will remain the same regardless. That they came fron the outside. Lazaridis/Reich paper only changes their origin.

Again, I am on the same page. Even if PGW has steppe ancestry, it was these mixed people that called themselves Arya and it has nothing to do with any other IE tribe. In fact, most of the time this designation was restricted to Ganga plains. But without PGW samples proving otherwise, it won't be enough for our own commies, propagandists and euros who want to claim relevance in the ancient era.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

Yup. I have read that but the typical claim will remain the same regardless. That they came fron the outside. Lazaridis/Reich paper only changes their origin.

Again, I am on the same page. Even if PGW has steppe ancestry, it was these mixed people that called themselves Arya and it has nothing to do with any other IE tribe. In fact, most of the time this designation was restricted to Ganga plains. But without PGW samples proving otherwise, it won't be enough for our own commies, propagandists and euros who want to claim relevance in the ancient era.

If you have noticed homeland is now shifting towards east. Absolutely hilarious when they put all their eggs in
the Indo-e basket even when they had important non Indo-e footprints Megalithic, Vinca, et al of which the basque language is the only linguistic remnant.

Lullz buddy actually steppefags tried to label Pgw as a migrant culture but its too much older than even some certain Sindhu Sarasvati sites upto 2500bce.

Must note that elephant is found in homeland. Sanskrit ibha- , Greek- el-ephas , hittite- lahpa.
Where Elephants are found? This subcontinent. Mouse, Zebu, water buffalo, elephant, peacock, langurs were all moving out from here 3500-2000bce.No central Asian or be it middle Eastern species and sub species of elephant in the neolithic historical times.

So now lullz they make new claim that reconstructed lexicon for elephant could also mean mammoths that came by trade of ivory. But then this claim is ridiculous because if it had come by alleged ivory trade then transference of name to camel would not have happened.

 

[gutenmorgen]

If you have noticed homeland is now shifting towards east. Absolutely hilarious when they put all their eggs in
the Indo-e basket even when they had important non Indo-e footprints Megalithic, Vinca, et al of which the basque language is the only linguistic remnant.

Lullz buddy actually steppefags tried to label Pgw as a migrant culture but its too much older than even some certain Sindhu Sarasvati sites upto 2500bce.

Must note that elephant is found in homeland. Sanskrit ibha- , Greek- el-ephas , hittite- lahpa.
Where Elephants are found? This subcontinent. Mouse, Zebu, water buffalo, elephant, peacock, langurs were all moving out from here 3500-2000bce.No central Asian or be it middle Eastern species and sub species of elephant in the neolithic historical times.

So now lullz they make new claim that reconstructed lexicon for elephant could also mean mammoths that came by trade of ivory. But then this claim is ridiculous because if it had come by alleged ivory trade then transference of name to camel would not have happened.

That is the thing. They have been making stories for over a century now so non physical evidence wont do it for them, no matter how much cultural continuity we can show. Their climate makes sure that a lot of biological evidence is preserved. My guess is that they are now going to double down on AIT apart from screaming against the current Armenian/Kurdistan hypothesis because this is the only contribution they have left to claim any relevance in the ancient era.
We need either clear physical linguistic evidence (something like rosetta stone for ivc language) or clear dna evidence (or absence of such dna).

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

That is the thing. They have been making stories for over a century now so non physical evidence wont do it for them, no matter how much cultural continuity we can show. Their climate makes sure that a lot of biological evidence is preserved. My guess is that they are now going to double down on AIT apart from screaming against the current Armenian/Kurdistan hypothesis because this is the only contribution they have left to claim any relevance in the ancient era.
We need either clear physical linguistic evidence (something like rosetta stone for ivc language) or clear dna evidence (or absence of such dna).

It has for your information it has been now already established that aryan is identity exclusive to ancient Indians and ancient Iranians that is only and only Indo-Iranians.