Artillery, weapons of yesterday?

[pyromaniac]

"Wargames and detailed analysis of possible Chinese attacks on Taiwan, indicate that the basic Chinese strategy might work, and do so within days. The key to such a blitz is the 1,300 Chinese ballistic and cruise missiles. Most of these are based on the coast opposite Taiwan (180 kilometers away across the Taiwan Straits). The Chinese missiles carry one ton or half ton conventional (high explosive or cluster bomb) warheads, and were expected to be used to try and cripple Taiwanese air force and navy, as well as attacking headquarters and communications targets. Almost simultaneously, China would try to invade with airborne and amphibious forces. Without those missiles, Taiwans's superior air and naval forces would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for the invasion force to cross the straits. The wargames play out various targeting strategies, and defensive moves the Taiwanese could take. In most cases, the Chinese succeed. The barrage of missiles do serious damage to Taiwanese air and naval forces, giving Chinese air and naval forces an opportunity to get ground forces ashore.

In response to this threat, Taiwan has signed a $154 million contract with a U.S. firm to upgrade the island nations Patriot missile systems. These hardware and software changes will make the Taiwanese Patriot batteries equal in performance to those used by the U.S. Army. That is, the Taiwanese Patriot systems will be able to fire the PAC-3 anti-missile missile, and station the Patriot launchers many kilometers from the system radars. Taiwan has also ordered hundreds of PAC-3 missiles. But even with these improvements, the Chinese still have a good shot at winning a quick victory. Taiwan is looking to deploying its naval and air forces differently, to minimize the effects of the ballistic missiles.

Taiwan, increasingly anxious about this situation, boosted its defense spending by about 15 percent last year (to $10.5 billion). China spends over five times as much on defense, to support about two million troops. Taiwan has only 350,000 troops, and a population of 23 million, compared to 1.3 billion on the mainland. Taiwans's GPD is $650 billion, compared to $2.7 trillion for China. Thus the per capital income of Taiwan is more than ten times that of the mainland. Taiwans military is based on the American model, with an emphasis on quality. China based its military on the Soviet model (where quantity has a quality all its own), although for decades the emphasis was on mobilizing a huge force of guerillas. Now China is trying to develop a force that can fight on Western terms (high tech operated by well trained troops.)

While many Taiwanese still see the United States as the ultimate guarantor of Taiwanese independence, they see China as increasingly capable of grabbing the island before the U.S. can intervene. So while the Taiwanese don't have to be strong enough to defeat a Chinese invasion, they do have to be strong enough to hold the Chinese back until American reinforcements can show up."

Strategic Weapons: The Thousand Warhead Weapon

This got me thinking..are we soon going to find conventional artillery obsolete? A missile battery that is capable of firing multiple cluster warheads can completely wipe out an entrenched position or on a larger scale, a complex of buildings. An added advantage is the fact that the missiles can be fired from a variety of locations(hundreds of miles away even) and made to land on the same target. Also, the fact is they have a much greater range than conventional artillery and greater mobility too... the fact that they can be remotely fired also guarantees less casualties. What do you guys think?

 

[threadbrowser]

I dont know about tracking 155mm artillery shells but the Americans are using old phalanx CIWS mounted on trailers to shoot down incoming mortars in afghanistan and iraq.

 

[ppgj]

can somebody post status wrt IA artillery RFP evaluation please?

 

[ppgj]

ray sir
can you please write about the status of IA artillery in terms of quality,quantiity and the requirement as it exists today.

 

[MitMeister]

Indian scenario is completely different, CHINA and PAK are not so easy to be attacked or can attack. The terrain is different and enemy is different. Artillery guns will always be a good weapon if enemy knows how and where to use it. Artillery cannot be entirely ruled out.


For Indian Scenario---as far as my knowledge goes. army general quoted in times now channel saying army is now holding junk BOFORS and no new artillery guns procurement in near future(10 yrs maybe). we are in deep trouble. PAK as already purchased new gen Artillery(China is different all together).. so where do we stand in conventional war scenario..

 

[Iceman007]

Its time for us to bury the ghosts of Bofors and pick up with F777 light howitzer...........practically, most places where we will need the artillery guns will be in the mountains where it will hard to get a tracked vehicle in easily...........a f777 can be flown by helicopter and will still give you the range and power of a52 cal 155............with the excalibur shells, you can even get better precision

 

[bengalraider]

there is a reason artillery is known as the god of war, though i would agree that with the advent of MLRS the importance of tube artillery has decreased somewhat it is still far from gone, the big guns are still required as demonstrated in kargil and more recently by the americans in iraq and by ISAF in afghanistan,the main reason for this is cost a shell costs far less than a rocket of comparable destruction capability, with the advent of modern guided artillery things have only gotten better. as for the chinese they also maintain far more big guns than rockets.

 

[firechameleon]

when it comes to war with china, we are at a disadvantage in multiple areas...

looking at human history, it is clear that militarily, either quantity or smart tactics or both mixed together works..... war is no place for quality........

Indian armed forces revolves around quality..... both in terms of troops and technology...

china unfortunately has a better hold on technology, mostly because of their ability to snoop around other countries for the next big idea....
perfect example top of my head is the chinese version of tavor... they dont mind breaking rules........ but we stupidly do........

with respect to artillery, they NEVER go obsolete......... they evolve...... atleast in countries where people think out of the box.........

tomorrow's war, just like yesterday's, goes to the side that holds the air...... if u have air superiority over yours and the enemy's territory, they're basically screwed.... unfortunately most indiains are born or raised with inability to think outside the box....

"Its time for us to bury the ghosts of Bofors and pick up with F777 light howitzer...........practically, most places where we will need the artillery guns will be in the mountains where it will hard to get a tracked vehicle in easily...........a f777 can be flown by helicopter and will still give you the range and power of a52 cal 155............with the excalibur shells, you can even get better precision "

perfect example of what i mean.... install these artillery onto aircrafts... make them airborne... thus increasing their strike capability and usabilty in most kinds of weathers....

 

[sandeepdg]

India should acquire light Howitzers as planned by the IA like the ST Kinetics Pegasus and the Self propelled Primus.... they can be easily transportable in mountainous terrain by helicopters as they are lightweight and hence can be swiftly moved to forward locations....like the Indo-China border...........

 

[jackprince]

when it comes to war with china, we are at a disadvantage in multiple areas...

looking at human history, it is clear that militarily, either quantity or smart tactics or both mixed together works..... war is no place for quality........

Read once again about Gulf War. How many tanks or aircraft USA lost and compare it with how many tanks and aircraft iraq lost! FYI Iraq had one of the largest Armored force as well AA system. It was clearly and surely a win of quality over huge quantity.

When it comes to war with China, China will be the aggressor and it is China whose soldiers has to come through the hostile terrain. A little small but qualitatively better Indian Army can defend the terrain as the terrain itself will restrict the quantity of troops or vehicles China can deploy.

china unfortunately has a better hold on technology, mostly because of their ability to snoop around other countries for the next big idea....
perfect example top of my head is the chinese version of tavor... they dont mind breaking rules........ but we stupidly do........

It is why India doesn't practice those snooping and copying, there are so many types of weapon systems are in offer; otherwise there wouldn't be. The manufacturers of those weapons are mostly corporates who aren't stupid. BTW, India does copy when it suits its needs - but it does try to limit them. Where do you think our SLR came from?

tomorrow's war, just like yesterday's, goes to the side that holds the air...... if u have air superiority over yours and the enemy's territory, they're basically screwed.... unfortunately most indiains are born or raised with inability to think outside the box....

What do you mean 'born or raised'?

perfect example of what i mean.... install these artillery onto aircrafts... make them airborne... thus increasing their strike capability and usabilty in most kinds of weathers....

You mean like AC-130 of USAF? Since none other use something like that. Of course it is a good tactics if you have enough fund to throw around. The heavy artillery use from those A/cs weakens the airframe much faster than any other a/c and so it is required that the a/cs be decommissioned sooner. Does India has the money? Also, AC-130 like gunships can only operated when all the enemy air defense systems in the area is already suppressed, else it will be sitting duck due to it's slow speed and huge radar signature. And when it is quite possible that India might achieve complete air-dominance over Pakistan, regarding China it's impossible yet. So, we might be able to use them against pakistan, but it'll useless against China.

 

[sandeepdg]

when it comes to war with china, we are at a disadvantage in multiple areas...

china unfortunately has a better hold on technology, mostly because of their ability to snoop around other countries for the next big idea....
perfect example top of my head is the chinese version of tavor... they dont mind breaking rules........ but we stupidly do........

Dude, China does not have much access to western weaponry other than some limited arsenal.... hence they resort to their snooping and copying business..... we on the other hand have no such limitations, hence we can acquire the best the world can offer.... the idea should be to develop technology indigeniously, which is what our organizations like DRDO, HAL etc. are doing........ not just to steal western tech and make cheap copies.... all the Chinese copies are of inferior quality than the original stuff....although we have been slow, i agree....but we are getting there....and that's a great thing....