Army Chief warns against govt-to-govt deals with US

[AJSINGH]

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/il76/
check this site, it contains picture of Il-76 carrying a batter tank

 

[ppgj]

first let me clear out the price of Il-476 it is 50million dollors ( http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairmo/articles/20091230.aspx) check this site for confirming the price of Il-476

i gave you a link where india paid $400 mil for 3 aircrafts which are the platforms for the phalcon awacs. fact is IL -76's are not in production. all they are doing is selling what was left from SU break up time. they are upgrading them with the new engines PS 90 which are fuel efficient and better avionics and newer cockpit, but with this, the cost goes up too - which was indicated to be above 130 mil as per my earlier link.

now about the FMS route,all i am saying is that why was not RFP sent to USA and EADS,also to russia , just by competitive tender ,prices could have come down.

how can RFP be sent to Russia and EADS when they do not fall in the same category which is super heavy lift. infact EADS aircraft's capacity is much less than IL 76 and it is still not fully operational!!! as i said only C-17 is in production and operational.

here is what wiki says FWIW about IL 76 status -

The prototype of the longer variant Il-76MF, with greater capacity, first flew on 1 August 1995. The production ceased around 1997, and the factory has since deteriorated.

Some commercial aircraft were modernized to the Il-76TD-90VD version, starting from 2004, using new PS-90 engines to meet European noise limits.[1] In 2005, China ordered[clarification needed] in Russia 34 new Il-76MDs and 4 Il-78 tankers, and the factory in Tashkent produced 16 incomplete airframes. Production of the Il-76 at a new factory in Ulyanovsk in Russia, in cooperation with the Tashkent works, is under consideration.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76#Design_and_development

and about the payload capacity of Il-476
( December 30, 2009: The Russian Air Force has decided to buy 38 of the new Il-476 transports. This is basically an Il-76 with more modern engines, state-of-the art electronics and numerous other improvements. This version can carry up to 60 tons and is about 15 percent more fuel efficient. It will be about two years before the first Il-476 enters service.) so as you can see Il-476 is capable to carry 60 tons
plus think of it , IAF has already full line of engeniers and pilots ,plus the ground crew to handle Il-76 ,for C-17 entire training has to be imparted ,plus new infastructure for maintainence. (Remeber the deal for airbus a2a re fuelers and why Fin Min denied it was because it was very expensive ,Il-78 were less than half the price and no need for new infastructure required hence the over all cost will be lower )
and buying 10 C-17 will redue the number of sorties but tell me can those 10 C-17 be in J&K and as well as Northeast at the same time, well 44 Il-476 can ,because they are more in mumber .
plus about the spares part problem , early in1990s there was a problem not any more because russia is better state now than ever , also it was part fault of HAL also for not taking up the manufacturing the spares part ( same problem with Mig29) HAL and govt of india was stupid enough to buy aircraft in substantial quantities and not supporting them with home industries.
IAF need was just heavy transport aircraft to which the govt replied with C-17 .
There are far more Il-76's in use than all of America's four engine jet transports (C-5, C-141, C-17) put together. Over 900 Il-76s were manufactured over the last thirty years, with nearly a hundred exported, so far, mainly to Cuba, Iraq, China, India, Libya and Syria. With few foreign or domestic sales in the last decade, the Il-76 manufacturer (Chkalov) was surviving by manufacturing wings and other components for the An-124, An-70 and An-225 transports. In addition, it made replacement parts for the Il-76 and Il-114 aircraft.

yes 38 are ordered. they were supposed to fly this year for induction post 2012. so far it seems it has not flown again as per my earlier link.

 

[AJSINGH]

i gave you a link where india paid $400 mil for 3 aircrafts which are the platforms for the phalcon awacs. fact is IL -76's are not in production. all they are doing is selling what was left from SU break up time. they are upgrading them with the new engines PS 90 which are fuel efficient and better avionics and newer cockpit, but with this, the cost goes up too - which was indicated to be above 130 mil as per my earlier link.



how can RFP be sent to Russia and EADS when they do not fall in the same category which is super heavy lift. infact EADS aircraft's capacity is much less than IL 76 and it is still not fully operational!!! as i said only C-17 is in production and operational.

here is what wiki says FWIW about IL 76 status -



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76#Design_and_development



yes 38 are ordered. they were supposed to fly this year for induction post 2012. so far it seems it has not flown again as per my earlier link.

those were just not Il-76 , there were A-50 , the AWACS version of the il-76 , plus tell me if the production of Il-76 is indeed closed , then how were the Il-78 and Il-76 made for A2A re fueling and AWACS purposes ? kinds strange right , on one hand you are saying that the production has ceased and on the other hand IAF is recieving its Mid air re fuelrs and AWACS

 

[AJSINGH]

plus even if the deal is cleared this year , the first aircraft will come next year and the rest in 2012 , so Govt could have stoped for Il-476 .

 

[BunBunCake]

where do you get those figures?? 60 IL-76's or 25 AN-124's??

can you show me a link to support your claim??

Why don't you look at the "cost" of those two air craft and do some math.
2.2 Billion/Cost of IL-16/AN-124

Simple isn't it?

whether "preferred" by IAF or not, the fact remains today, there is no other aircraft in the same class which is in production. hence the question of evaluation does not arise.

Didn't I just mention those two? IL-76, and AN-124. So yes, there ARE other aircraft of the same "class".

yes the price is huge but if you read the US press release, the price includes total support including spares, training, infra, ground support equipment etc.. the base price is 2.2 billlion $$. whether IAF opts for all sundry support or not is a question which will be answered in the coming days.

You think adding spares to the 2.2 Billion makes it any better?

 

[san]

Buddy, why you are keping IL-76 ,AN -124 & C-17 in the same basket. C-17 may be bad but IL-76 & An-124 will become obsolute transport aircraft in a few years. IL-76 was a good aircraft in 80s but will not remains same in 20s due to fuel consumption, maintainence etc.

 

[AJSINGH]

Buddy, why you are keping IL-76 ,AN -124 & C-17 in the same basket. C-17 may be bad but IL-76 & An-124 will become obsolute transport aircraft in a few years. IL-76 was a good aircraft in 80s but will not remains same in 20s due to fuel consumption, maintainence etc.

Il-476 is the upgrade of Il-76 , Russian Air force has already ordered 38 of Il-476
( MAK Ilyushin developed a modernized Il-476 project with a new wing, avionics and engines with Perm PS-90A-76. The Il-476 or 'fourth-generation Il-76' will feature PS-90A76 engines, a glass cockpit and a further 13 to 17 per cent improvement in fuel efficiency. As of mid-2008 the Ulyanovsk Aircraft Factory was preparing for the production of a brand-new version of the Ilyushin Il-76, called the Il-476. The Ilyushin Il-476 is equipped with a full numerical flight-control system, a glass cockpit and a new-generation PS-90 engine. The factory will need to upgrade its equipment to manufacture the Ilyushin Il-476, as initially only 20 percent of the necessary equipment was ready. Fortunately, the Ilyushin Group had sufficient financial capability to organize the production.)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/il-476.htm

 

[ppgj]

Why don't you look at the "cost" of those two air craft and do some math.
2.2 Billion/Cost of IL-16/AN-124

Simple isn't it?

simple?? or you are looking at it simply??

can you quote the price of IL-76 or AN-124?? may be we can compare.

btw the price of 50mil $ is the price of yester years. the price "today" is not known because they are not in production.

Didn't I just mention those two? IL-76, and AN-124. So yes, there ARE other aircraft of the same "class".

no they are not. capacity wise IL 76<C-17<AN 124. the buzz word was "in production". both you mentioned are not in production.

You think adding spares to the 2.2 Billion makes it any better?

i am not saying - it makes it any better. i am just countering a fact.

i neither support or oppose C-17. however it does bring some capabilities which IL 76 can't which i have enumerated in the past. if IAF needs them they need to get it at the "beleivable prices". if you have read my posts you would understand.

 

[ppgj]

those were just not Il-76 , there were A-50 , the AWACS version of the il-76 , plus tell me if the production of Il-76 is indeed closed , then how were the Il-78 and Il-76 made for A2A re fueling and AWACS purposes ? kinds strange right , on one hand you are saying that the production has ceased and on the other hand IAF is recieving its Mid air re fuelrs and AWACS

can you explain what are the differences between A-50 and IL 76?? will those differences make the cost so much higher considering we are only using the platform??

pakistan received an IL 78 which was from the old stock of Ukraine held from the SU break up time. if we want we can also get them even from Russia.

plus even if the deal is cleared this year , the first aircraft will come next year and the rest in 2012 , so Govt could have stoped for Il-476 .

i already said. it is supposed to fly this year. russian forces are also supposed to get them in 2012. unless it flies, we can't say anything for sure.

 

[nitesh]

Isn't IL 76 is 45-50 ton category plane and C 17 is 70-75 ton category plane and AN 124 is more then 100 ton capacity plane? Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if I am right then there is no comparison between these three.

 

[SATISH]

They are totally different categories of heavy-lift aircrafts. It is like comparing apples to Oranges.

 

[nrj]

Isn't IL 76 is 45-50 ton category plane and C 17 is 70-75 ton category plane and AN 124 is more then 100 ton capacity plane? Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if I am right then there is no comparison between these three.

Exactly. There is no comparison. And unless IAF/MOD specifies the use of these lifters no one can compare them. This AN124/IL76 to C17 comparison is ridiculous.

 

[nitesh]

Exactly. There is no comparison. And unless IAF/MOD specifies the use of these lifters no one can compare them. This AN124/IL76 to C17 comparison is ridiculous.

thanks nrj and satish so the debate going on is actually baseless guys can we change course to some meaning ful direction now

 

[AJSINGH]

Isn't IL 76 is 45-50 ton category plane and C 17 is 70-75 ton category plane and AN 124 is more then 100 ton capacity plane? Please correct me if I am wrong.

But if I am right then there is no comparison between these three.

Il-476 payload is increased to 60 tons , C-17 can carry 70 tons but range will be reduced .

 

[nitesh]

Il-476 payload is increased to 60 tons , C-17 can carry 70 tons but range will be reduced .

You have there comparison between there cargo volume I think that will be a major factor.

Any way C 17 are coming for trials let them pass the trails if they fail then................

 

[SATISH]

IL476 is not flying...period.

 

[AJSINGH]

can you explain what are the differences between A-50 and IL 76?? will those differences make the cost so much higher considering we are only using the platform??

pakistan received an IL 78 which was from the old stock of Ukraine held from the SU break up time. if we want we can also get them even from Russia.


i already said. it is supposed to fly this year. russian forces are also supposed to get them in 2012. unless it flies, we can't say anything for sure.

the A-50 , sports the radome on the fuselage , customised interiros to host mission computers and better engines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50

 

[SATISH]

IL 78 is modified to carry fuel and the A 50 is modified to carry Airborne radar along with command centres.

both are basically IL 76 airframes.

 

[AJSINGH]

look i am not saying that why did we buy C-130 or the artillery or anything else , but this deal( C-17) is different , this is just short of " ripping off " Govt of Inida

 

[nitesh]

^^
well Aj the deal is not signed yet we have only indicative pricing with us which is not final so how you can declare it as ripping off GoI