Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[porky_kicker]

With the present ammo? Not likely, unless the Arjun can get them from the flanks.

How much DoP is required to penetrate the Chinese tanks ?

 

[Blood+]

How much DoP is required to penetrate the Chinese tanks ?

If we are talking about their top of the line models like the 99A2, then quite a lot as they have got fully welded armor modules which are thicker than what's on the earlier models, plus they have got heavy ERA. So 650mm at the bare minimum would be my guess. But for the 96 and earlier 99 models, not so much, but still the present ammo may fall short. You have seen the present 120mm ammo in use with Arjun, right??

 

[Bleh]

If we are talking about their top of the line models like the 99A2, then quite a lot as they have got fully welded armor modules which are thicker than what's on the earlier models, plues they have got heavy ERA. So 650mm at the bare minimum would be my guess. But for the 96 and earlier 99 models, not so much, but still the present ammo may fall short. You have seen the present 120mm ammo in use with Arjun, right??

I think most Chinese tanks have an frontal protection of ERA (even older ones). The minimum DOP required is more than 700 mm RHA.

Arjun & Bhishma both have 500-550 only at range of 2km, same as AK-1 & VT-4 actually. But atleast Arjun can hit moving target at double that range... Making its FSAPDS as useless as a pencil (unless it can hit the lower glacis plate or flank of hull & ignite the ammo).

It may be adequate in our desert scenario of long-range gunnery, detecting & engaging before the enemy can get in range to hit Arjun's huge weak spots accurately... which is quite possible. But it'll be a laughing stock in export scenario.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I think most Chinese tanks have an frontal protection of ERA (even older ones). The minimum DOP required is more than 700 mm RHA.

Penetrating Chinese tanks from front is not impossible with current ammo. (500-550 mm), will require clever placement of shots as there are weak spots as well on the front like lower glacis plate, turret ring, gun mantlet, frontal sloped turret roof etc.

 

[Blood+]

I think most Chinese tanks have an frontal protection of ERA (even older ones). The minimum DOP required is more than 700 mm RHA.

Not for the earlier models as their base armor is, let's just say, weak. Can explain it in more detail if anyone wants me to.

 

[Blood+]

Arjun & Bhishma has 500-550 only at range of 2km. But atleast Arjun can hit moving target at double that range... Making its FSAPDS as useless as a pencil (unless it can hit the lower glacis plate or flank of hull & ignite the ammo).

It may be adequate in our desert scenario of long-range gunnery, detecting & engaginh before the enemy can hit it... but it'll be a laughing stock in export scenario.

Even 550 seems to be way too optimistic a figure.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Not for the earlier models as their base armor is, let's just say, weak. Can explain it in more detail if anyone wants me to.

It would be nice if you could give the stats for Type 85, Type 96, Type 99 etc. with ERA cover.

 

[Bleh]

Even 550 seems to be way too optimistic a figure.

No official words said "greater than 500mm"... so I'm assuming it can't do 600. Thus 500-550 seemed like a safe assumption.

It would be nice if you could give the stats for Type 85, Type 96, Type 99 etc. with ERA cover.

Ak-1, VT-4, Type-96/99 all have LOS thickness of ±650mm... just the armour-block is larger in 99. But with the outer ERA you can safely assume another 300mm.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

There is a 700-800 mm DOP 125 mm round (single piece) that is under developement by DRDO (as per Tender) for T-90 and T-72. But it will require modified turret and autoloader for firing it.
Thus in a sense it will be Tank-EX version 2.

Production partner for new rounds can be Bharat Forge

Not sure how many T-72s and T-90S will be upgraded though. It might require OEM approval.

 

[porky_kicker]

If we are talking about their top of the line models like the 99A2, then quite a lot as they have got fully welded armor modules which are thicker than what's on the earlier models, plus they have got heavy ERA. So 650mm at the bare minimum would be my guess. But for the 96 and earlier 99 models, not so much, but still the present ammo may fall short. You have seen the present 120mm ammo in use with Arjun, right??

Mk-2 yes why ?
It says it can defeat triple NATO armour . But how much DoP it translates into i wonder. Anyone have information on the protection parameter of " triple NATO armour " ?

What about the Indian T-90 ? Can its APFSDS produce the necessary DoP to penetrate Chinese armour ?

And my question is why would army acquire APFSDS rounds whose DoP is inadequate to penetrate existing enemy tanks ? Are we missing something ?

 

[WARREN SS]

Mk-2 yes why ?
It says it can defeat triple NATO armour . But how much DoP it translates into i wonder. Anyone have information on the same " triple NATO armour " ?

What about the Indian T-90 ? Can its APFSDS produce the necessary DoP to penetrate Chinese armour ?

Yes
Latest rounds used by Russia can penetrate upto 750 - 800mm

If Ordered we can get It under Fast track procurements(During war)

Both for T-72Ajay and T-90

Redirect Notice

 

[porky_kicker]

Yes
Latest rounds used by Russia can penetrate upto 750 - 800mm

Redirect Notice

Thanks for the info
But i meant India T-90 not Russia latest T-90

Do you think russia will export their top of the line ammo ? Never. ToT ? Never.

At what cost ? ( Russian charged 3x-4x for old APFSDS deal )

Also performance of ammo depends on the gun , muzzle velocity , pressure generated etc , first Russians supplied older T-90 gun , 2nd never completed the TOT of that gun.

I doubt that new russian round will work with the existing indian T-90 gun , even if by any miracle they agree to supply it .

Also if they supply , they will supply the degraded export version of the same.

Same story all over again , Russians will laugh their way to the bank as usual , while army will start looking for other APFSDS again.

Army / MoD etc should pump money and get top of line APFSDS technology by hook or crook . It will solve the problem once for all and also keep OFB out of it.

 

[Bleh]

Mk-2 yes why ?
It says it can defeat triple NATO armour . But how much DoP it translates into i wonder. Anyone have information on the protection parameter of " triple NATO armour " ?

What about the Indian T-90 ? Can its APFSDS produce the necessary DoP to penetrate Chinese armour ?

And my question is why would army acquire APFSDS rounds whose DoP is inadequate to penetrate existing enemy tanks ? Are we missing something ?

NATO targets - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And no, our T-90 finds are just slightly modified T-72Ajeya guns. They to score between 500-550mm we are missing the metallurgical technology for making a long-rodmpenetrator (that only Arjun could get), or a gun that can withstand enough chanber pressure to propell it fast. enough (7600 in merkava compare to 6000 in Arjun).

 

[porky_kicker]

NATO targets - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And yes, we are missing the metallurgical technology for making such a penetrator, or a gun that can withstand enough chanber pressure to propell it fast enough (7600 in merkava compare to 6000 in Arjun).

I read that already , could not get what I wanted .

You tell me how much cumulative armour it translates into ?

 

[Bleh]

I read that already , could not get what I wanted .

You tell me how much cumulative armour it translates into ?

3 plates, total 225mm thick (with some air-gaps in between)... 450-odd mm actual thickness, but some of it is less dense than RHA. A joke really!.. A sad one.

 

[porky_kicker]

225mm... 450-odd mm actual thickness (with some air-gaps in between. A joke. A sad one.

Heavy triple NATO ?

 

[Bleh]

Heavy triple NATO ?

Yes. I've slightly updated both my posts... Kindly read again.

 

[porky_kicker]

 

[Blood+]

Mk-2 yes why ?

Yes, so, have you seen the length of the penetrator?? Try and visualize what you saw and then compare it to something like this -

and this -

Notice the difference yet??

It says it can defeat triple NATO armour . But how much DoP it translates into i wonder. Anyone have information on the protection parameter of " triple NATO armour " ?

It's just three RHA plates of different thickness, set at 65 degree from the vertical plane, placed a certain distance away from one another. Nothing serious really. In terms of LOS thickness, it'd transfer to 225mm/cos 65, now do the math.

What about the Indian T-90 ? Can its APFSDS produce the necessary DoP to penetrate Chinese armour ?

The present ones?? Highly unlikely against the heavier models.

And my question is why would army acquire APFSDS rounds whose DoP is inadequate to penetrate existing enemy tanks ? Are we missing something ?

For Arjun, due to a lack of a compatible gun which prevents us from importing ammo from friendly NATO countries and technological limitation for developing one by ourselves.
For the T series, again lack of a suitable gun for the modern Russian rounds are designed to be fired from the 2A46M5 guns whereas we are still stuck with the baseline M version of mid 70's vintage which can not handle the increased chamber pressure requirements of the newer rounds.

 

[Blood+]

Ak-1, VT-4, Type-96/99 all have LOS thickness of ±650mm... just the armour-block is larger in 99. But with the outer ERA you can safely assume another 300mm.

You left out one very crucial detail, bruv.