Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Kunal Biswas]

nonsense:

How did you get to the conclusion that it is Equivalent to M1A1 / LEO2A4 or any one else ? or it just imaginary.. ( Please provide some official claims )

nonsense:

additionally it might be able to withstand M829A1(silver bullet) at point blank range,which makes the front turret armour equal to the M1A1(HA) and leopard 2A4,.

 

[Dejawolf]

nonsense:

How did you get to the conclusion that it is Equivalent to M1A1 / LEO2A4 or any one else ? or it just imaginary.. ( Please provide some official claims )

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-44.html#post644046

we can also attempt to use plain logic.
the best indian 125mm ammunition can penetrate up to 580mm RHAe @ point blank range.
so we can say minimum KE protection on front turret is 580mm, this is also the most effective KE penetrator the indian army will face in the foreseeable future, due to autoloader restrictions on both pakistan and china's russian-derived autoloaders.
best version of the milan is capable of penetrating 1000mm RHAe. so TE vs HEAT should be above 1000mm.
leopard 2A4 turret is ~700mm vs KE, 1000mm vs HEAT

1. the front turret thickness of the Arjun is close to the thickness of the leopard 2A4
2. Indian Kanchan armour is purported to be better than russian composites, and it's likely slightly less than or equal to western composites.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I read exactly what you type that is >>

" Because Arjun tank took a round that can go through 580mm of Armour at point blank range So we can say its minimum protection from front is 580mm So its close to Leopard and So Kanchan is little better than Russian and close to western of 80s type "

^^ Does this statement have water with So & may be ? What if the Maximum is 580-800-900mm ? your statement will fall..

Beside your statement there are no official specs are ever out regarding Leo2a4 resistance from KE & Heat, The specs you took from a Gaming site..

Do i need to add anything more ?

best indian 125mm ammunition can penetrate up to 580mm RHAe @ point blank range. so we can say minimum KE protection on front turret is 580mm.

leopard 2A4 turret is ~700mm vs KE, 1000mm vs HEAT, Indian Kanchan armour is purported to be better than russian composites, and it's likely slightly less than or equal to western composites.

 

[arya]

@Kunal ::: how many tanks we have and how many Chinese have

why not we induct usa anti tank missile

 

[ersakthivel]

do you have a point?


nonsense:

front turret as you said, withstands the best rounds from T-90. additionally it might be able to withstand M829A1(silver bullet) at point blank range,
which makes the front turret armour equal to the M1A1(HA) and leopard 2A4,
side turret however, is clearly less than 55cm thick. you claim it's 60cm thick or more...
the side turret armour is at most proof against BMP-2 30mm at most on the rear half, and proof against RPG-7 on front half.



Nag is top-attack, so it will circumvent the front/side armour protection and blow the arjun to bits.

STGN's x pix= y meters is something he himself can verify.

SO let leave it aside and take the ratio of the hatch cover width that can be accomadated besides the ARJUn turret on the hull.

It is 70 percent.

Since the lock on the storage box and crew hatch are almost located side by side , there is no perspective distortion of distances either.

The slight tilting of turret also does not matter because the center point of the turret is a pivot around which the turret rotates so it will be in the same position even if turret straightens.

The total hull width is 3840 mm(including partial frontal side skirts is my assumption, in reality it may or may not be is something that needs official clarification.).

70 percent of the hatch cover width is the vacant space besides the turret side on ARJUN hull.

So it is 375 mm on one side, 750 mm on both sides,

3840 mm-750m gives 3100 mm approx as turret width.

So the claim of ARJUN turret having 3 plus meters width is correct.

SO close to 500 mm space is available for composite armor for ARJUN turret is correct , since the first storage box was converted to armor long time ago in production versions of ARJUn.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

India have +3000 tanks mostly T-72M1, Where as China have 3000 * 2 but, Terrain does not allow the flow of tanks into Indian Side, But it does not same from Our Side.

We are inducting Hellfire Missles on Apache, Helina also induct soon, Till then we have 9M113 Konkurs ATGM and Millan 2 ATGM..

@Kunal ::: how many tanks we have and how many Chinese have

why not we induct usa anti tank missile

 

[ersakthivel]

STGN's x pix= y meters is something he himself can verify.

SO let leave it aside and take the ratio of the hatch cover width that can be accomadated besides the ARJUn turret on the hull.

It is 70 percent.

Since the lock on the storage box and crew hatch are almost located side by side , there is no perspective distortion of distances either.

The slight tilting of turret also does not matter because the center point of the turret is a pivot around which the turret rotates so it will be in the same position even if turret straightens.

The total hull width is 3840 mm(including partial frontal side skirts is my assumption, in reality it may or may not be is something that needs official clarification.).

70 percent of the hatch cover width is the vacant space besides the turret side on ARJUN hull.

So it is 375 mm on one side, 750 mm on both sides,

3840 mm-750m gives 3100 mm approx as turret width.

So the claim of ARJUN turret having 3 plus meters width is correct.

SO close to 500 mm space is available for composite armor for ARJUN turret is correct , since the first storage box was converted to armor long time ago in production versions of ARJUn.

The red line cuts the crew hatch width into two equal parts i.e 275 mm.
The red line also indicates the ARJUn's width over tracks i.e 3540 mm
So 3540 mm(2x275 mm=550 mm)=3 meters.

But in reality it may be close to 3.1 meters , because when the blue triangle is brought forward it measures less length on the hull than on the hatch cover because of perspective distortion.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

do you have a point?


nonsense:

front turret as you said, withstands the best rounds from T-90. additionally it might be able to withstand M829A1(silver bullet) at point blank range,
which makes the front turret armour equal to the M1A1(HA) and leopard 2A4,
side turret however, is clearly less than 55cm thick. you claim it's 60cm thick or more...
the side turret armour is at most proof against BMP-2 30mm at most on the rear half, and proof against RPG-7 on front half.



Nag is top-attack, so it will circumvent the front/side armour protection and blow the arjun to bits.

you stop your BS. you and some other"experts" have been going on and on for months just by estimating arjun armour from some pictures of preproduction arjun's and estimating it's armour thickness and turret width(which finally turned out to be 3.2m) and and some of you even estimated that it's height is over 3m but it turned out to 2.32 m so we can all understand the accuracy of your picture based bogus calculation.also nag is not only a top attack munition it can also attack tanks frontal armour and can penetrate greater than 800mm of era protected composite armour(source :recent pics posted by prasun sengupta from aero india).another thing is even though arjun has much better top armour protection than t-90 so it can defeat tandem warhead of top attack munitions to a certain extend.but specifically for this purpose hemrl has developed some kind of hybrid armour which can drive back tandem warheads as well as KE projectiles) so don't think arjun is defenceless against helicopter launched heavy atgm.also every tank armour has weakness including leopard and m1a2.

 

[Damian]

you stop your BS. you and some other"experts" have been going on and on for months just by estimating arjun armour from some pictures of preproduction arjun's and estimating it's armour thickness and turret width(which finally turned out to be 3.2m) and and some of you even estimated that it's height is over 3m but it turned out to 2.32 m so we can all understand the accuracy of your picture based bogus calculation.also nag is not only a top attack munition it can also attack tanks frontal armour and can penetrate greater than 800mm of era protected composite armour(source :recent pics posted by prasun sengupta from aero india).another thing is even though arjun has much better top armour protection than t-90 so it can defeat tandem warhead of top attack munitions to a certain extend.but specifically for this purpose hemrl has developed some kind of hybrid armour which can drive back tandem warheads as well as KE projectiles) so don't think arjun is defenceless against helicopter launched heavy atgm.also every tank armour has weakness including leopard and m1a2. [/U]

You write a lot of BS. Not to mention that what I marked, are just lies, and believe me, I closely watched the events and had informations from reliable sources, what you write here is just not truth. You should educate yourself.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

You write a lot of BS. Not to mention that what I marked, are just lies, and believe me, I closely watched the events and had informations from reliable sources, what you write here is just not truth. You should educate yourself.

i have read many of your posts and there is zero amount of worthwhile information in it as most of it is not backed by credible sources.regarding hybrid armour click on this link(http://geneva-globaldefence.blogspot.in/2010/12/indias-drdo-readies-hybrid-armour-for.html)

 

[militarysta]

we can also attempt to use plain logic.
the best indian 125mm ammunition can penetrate up to 580mm RHAe @ point blank range. m

Please no...it's not so easly.
Indian 125mm ammo is 3BM42:
guaranteed: 460mm RHA on 2000m
achaivable: ~500mm RHA on 2000m
Israeli (per analogy to the polish Pronit round adn iys newes polish version):
guaranteed: ~500mm RHA at 2000m
achaivable: 530 - 540mm RHA at 2000m

best version of the milan is capable of penetrating 1000mm RHAe.

In fact 800mm RHA Milan (like most ATGM SC warhed is overestimated)

leopard 2A4 turret is ~700mm vs KE, 1000mm vs HEAT

Definetly not. Leopard-2A4 have 3 types "special armour"
1984-1986
half batch from 1986 -1988
1988-1992
Eacht tank have diffrent protection. And even eacht one value is depend on armour LOS on tank. It's diffrent for turret and turret sides at 30. and for hull. Value "700mm vs KE" is taken from space.

Part about Leopard-2A4 armour is describe by me here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tanks-armour-technology-322.html#post676522

protection for Leopard2A3 and 2A4 (erly) can be as:
~430-480-540mm vs KE and 850-954-1084mm vs HEAT (turret sides at 30. and hull front - turret front at 30. - turret front at 0.)

For Leopard-2A4 since 1986 IMHO it will be slighty bigger:
500-550-630mm vs KE and -1000-1150-1300mm vs CE ((turret sides at 30. and hull front - turret front ad 30. - turret front at 0.)

But no way 700mm vs KE. It's impossible.



@shuvo@y2k10

even the (9M14-2T Serbian Yugoimport SDPR Malyutka-2T SACLOS 4.4 kg tandem HEAT warhead 1,000 mm penetration versus RHA, improved capability against ERA. Weight 13.7 kg. Speed 120 m/s) which is an improved version of a wire guided anti tank projectile of soviet union in which originally entered service in 60's is enought to penetrate the frontal armour of leopard2a7,m1a2sep,challenger 2 and other mbt

No, it's not. 1000mm RHA vs HEAT was achive in western tank in half of the 1980s.
If You are interested - in orgins of the Burlinghton there is descripsion test whit very erly burlinghton armour module:




And notice that for 90. degree HEAT diametr 84mm (SC) - so with perforation around 340-380mm RHA in those years - was stopped by: 203cm LOS thick erly Burlinghton module, and only ~50mm RHA (hull sides). In fact only Burlinghton module provide protction like (Carl Gustav warhed rforation - hull sides) ~290-330mm RHA.
For 30-35 degree the same module whit LOS thickens 400-450mm and hull sides thicknes 100-120mm RHA provide protection against SC (HEAT) warhed 152mm dimatere whit penetration into RHA is 28 inches (711 mm) for the 152 mm SC.
Notice that we are talking about 1960s.
As I said for middle 1980's it was near 1000mm RHA vs HEAT warhed. Propably in half of the 1990 it's about ~1600mm RHA vs HEAT.

even chinese blogger's claim that the frontal armour of their type 99g is 1200 mm against ke and it's main gun 125mm can have a max barrel velocity of 1780m/s and it it's new rounds can penetrate 960mm rha

And those values for Chineese tanks are dumb as sh!t it just bullshit unable to achive now in China. It;s obvious for all person interested in tank industry and modern MBTs technology.

nother thing is even though arjun has much better top armour protection than t-90 so it can defeat tandem warhead of top attack munitions to a certain extend.but specifically for this purpose hemrl has developed some kind of hybrid armour which can drive back tandem warheads as well as KE projectiles)

What? I beg You pardon about what armour You are talking?
This:




?

And if You want find smth close to the Nag just find those pdf in google:

Inconsistent Performance of a Tandem-shaped Charge Warhead
S. Harikrishnan and K.P.S. Murthy
Armament Research and Development Establishment, Pashan, Pune -411021

from that pdf:

3. INCONSISTENT PERFORMANCE OF TANDEM
WARHEAD
Shaped-charge jet emanating from precursor charge
initiates the ERA. Main charge is initiated after certain time
delay when the debris of detonated ERA is cleared from
the main charge jet path. As per one dimensional codes
based on generalised PER theory, the expected penetration
of warhead is 800 mm after defeating ERA. However, penetration
recorded on the target was inconsistent varying from 260
mm to 750 mm. Crater formed at the entry of target was
elongated. It was also noticed that when the warhead registers
its intended penetration, elongated craters are not observed.
Data from various tests are reported in Table 1.

 

[militarysta]

..................
(double post)

 

[Damian]

i have read many of your posts and there is zero amount of worthwhile information in it as most of it is not backed by credible sources.regarding hybrid armour click on this link(Global Defence: India's DRDO develops hybrid armour for tanks)

This is because you are poorly educated person that do not know most of languages in which such informations are written, besides english you should know at leats slightly russian, there is also a lot of informations in my native language.

And above you have Militarysta post, where he explains a lot using reliable sources, as you can see one of them is not in english, although it is based on official goverment documents from British archieves. What documents were used is provided in source he use, so you can try to search them in British archieves.

 

[Dejawolf]

I read exactly what you type that is >>

" Because Arjun tank took a round that can go through 580mm of Armour at point blank range So we can say its minimum protection from front is 580mm So its close to Leopard and So Kanchan is little better than Russian and close to western of 80s type "

^^ Does this statement have water with So & may be ? What if the Maximum is 580-800-900mm ? your statement will fall..

Beside your statement there are no official specs are ever out regarding Leo2a4 resistance from KE & Heat, The specs you took from a Gaming site..

Do i need to add anything more ?

the specs for the leopard 2A4 was from a tanker who had talked with a KMW engineer.
And what does it matter if arjun is 600 or 800 or 900. 900mm LOS for the arjun is heavy overkill given the tanks it's going up against, and would be a waste of resources.
are you saying DRDO are resource squandering idiots?
600mm vs KE would be capable of stopping any russian 125mm round at LOS angle, but not at an angle normal to the front turret armour.
700mm, and it's impervous at an angle normal to the front armour, which is the magic number the germans went for.
it also makes the leopard 2A4 impervous to it's own DM-33 round(600mm@p0),
and armies have a tendency to make sure that at a minimum, their tanks can protect against it's own best ammunition from the front.

580mm LOS is the bare minimum.
the base arjun protection will be higher than this, except maybe in weakspots in the armour, like the point where the gunners auxillary sight cuts through the gunshield, the coax port, the main gun, the lip under the gun or the area behind the gunners primary sight.
likely DRDO went for a compromise, just as the germans did. putting the GPS low, decreases parralax between gun and sight, and also decreases engagement times, since the gunner does not have to look through the GAS to ensure the main gun of the tank clears the berm ahead of it, and also you won't have the front turret roof obscuring your vision with the gun at minimum elevation. the crux is decreased armour in the location of the GPS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I fail to see you are backing anything creditable..

========================

Your Logic is understood and i have no opposition to your view that Arjun Armour withstand IMI round at very close range ( Data was provided by me and other members before me ) But when you transforming assumptions as facts this is where your Idea become Quack..

the specs for the leopard 2A4 was from a tanker who had talked with a KMW engineer.
And what does it matter if arjun is 600 or 800 or 900. 900mm LOS for the arjun is heavy overkill given the tanks it's going up against, and would be a waste of resources.
are you saying DRDO are resource squandering idiots?
600mm vs KE would be capable of stopping any russian 125mm round at LOS angle, but not at an angle normal to the front turret armour.
700mm, and it's impervous at an angle normal to the front armour, which is the magic number the germans went for.
it also makes the leopard 2A4 impervous to it's own DM-33 round(600mm@p0),
and armies have a tendency to make sure that at a minimum, their tanks can protect against it's own best ammunition from the front.

580mm LOS is the bare minimum.
the base arjun protection will be higher than this, except maybe in weakspots in the armour, like the point where the gunners auxillary sight cuts through the gunshield, the coax port, the main gun, the lip under the gun or the area behind the gunners primary sight.
likely DRDO went for a compromise, just as the germans did. putting the GPS low, decreases parralax between gun and sight, and also decreases engagement times, since the gunner does not have to look through the GAS to ensure the main gun of the tank clears the berm ahead of it, and also you won't have the front turret roof obscuring your vision with the gun at minimum elevation. the crux is decreased armour in the location of the GPS.

 

[Dejawolf]

STGN's x pix= y meters is something he himself can verify.

SO let leave it aside and take the ratio of the hatch cover width that can be accomadated besides the ARJUn turret on the hull.

It is 70 percent.

Since the lock on the storage box and crew hatch are almost located side by side , there is no perspective distortion of distances either.

The slight tilting of turret also does not matter because the center point of the turret is a pivot around which the turret rotates so it will be in the same position even if turret straightens.

The total hull width is 3840 mm(including partial frontal side skirts is my assumption, in reality it may or may not be is something that needs official clarification.).

70 percent of the hatch cover width is the vacant space besides the turret side on ARJUN hull.

So it is 375 mm on one side, 750 mm on both sides,

i did everything you did, and got a different result:

45*2 = 90cm
385cm-90cm = 295cm. so how on earth did you end up at 3100mm?

you've made errors too. the hatch is closer to the first clasp, not the second.

 

[Dejawolf]

btw, gift from me to you:

http://www.dejawolf.com/indiadefense/arjunhull.html

bought it from indiatoday.com, it's the engineering drawings for the hull of the arjun.

more images are available here:
http://www.indiatodayimages.com/indiatodayimages/search/arjun-tank/3.html

 

[militarysta]

the specs for the leopard 2A4 was from a tanker who had talked with a KMW engineer.

It's rather disinformation. Value vs KE is overestimated, but vs HEAT is slighty understimated. And as I now KMW engineer don't talk about tank, armour, gun, ammo. They just don't do that.

it also makes the leopard 2A4 impervous to it's own DM-33 round(600mm@p0),
.

DM-33 have guaranteed 470mm RHA for 2000m for russian norm, achivable is around 500mm RHA, so P0 is mucht smaller (less then 550mm RHA).

 

[STGN]

btw, gift from me to you:

http://www.dejawolf.com/indiadefense/arjunhull.html

bought it from indiatoday.com, it's the engineering drawings for the hull of the arjun.

more images are available here:
Buy HD Images of Celebrity, Natural Disasters, Fashion Weeks and World Cup - India Today Images

Wow that is an incredible gesture, thats a lot of money, thank you very much!
STGN

 

[Dejawolf]

Wow that is an incredible gesture, thats a lot of money, thank you very much!
STGN

heh, it's worth it, India is interested in SB, so i might end up making an arjun tank in the future. a reference drawing this good is going to save me a bunch of time,
and time is money.

already it's revealing some pretty surprising details.
hull sides are only 40mm thick, making them only 14.5mm proof.
upper glacis is 140mm thick@75° = 540mm LOS
lower front hull is 100mm thick@60° = 200mm LOS
heavy skirts are 100mm thick.

glacis details:
cover plate 3cm
composites: 5cm
backing plate: 6cm
3+6 = 9
9*1.25 = 112.5
50*0.9 = 45
112+45 = 157mm vs KE
157mm@75° = 606mm LOS vs KE

fuel: 115cm in front of ammunition, 60cm in front of driver

= +90mm vs KE, +330mm vs HEAT@driver
= +172mm vs KE + 632mm vs HEAT@ammunition