Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[ersakthivel]

the weld line is where the front angled armour plates are welded to the flat roof. from other images you can see the the angle stops at the first weld, your so-called "composite armour" line, and not the second.

take a good look at the vision block or gunner's periscope in the LEO pic above and Arjun pic below,

IMHO the vision block or periscope is inserted inside the composite armor module in both the Arjun and Leo as the weld line on top of Arjun turret indicates clearly, (In Leo a weld line must come behind the periscope as it is shown in Arjun pic below,)

But you will accept that in case of LEO, but won't accept that in case of Arjun.

So what holds good fro LEO,

won't hold good for Arjun as far as weld lines signifying the start and end of composite armor is your opinion,

Am I right?

@methos

@Damian

Guys what do you think about

@militarysta 's opinion below?

99% not. Arhun don;'t replicate here Leo-2A4 armour layout.
Those small periscope in toreet rof is not INISDE armour cavity (as in Leo-2A4) but after it's backplate. So armour after main sight is ending on this persicope.



Becouse it will explain those persicope question definetly. Based on other photos (interior captured on video) I can sye that armour ends BEFORE periscope...




Yes, im 99% sure that Kunal's left shoe is not standing on backplate. The backplate is ending in one line whit periscope.

 

[methos]

IMHO the vision block or periscope is inserted inside the composite armor module in both the Arjun and Leo as the weld line on top of Arjun turret indicates clearly, (In Leo a weld line must come behind the periscope as it is shown in Arjun pic below,)

We can clearly see on images from the inside of the tank that this is not the case for the Arjun tank.

 

[ersakthivel]

We can clearly see on images from the inside of the tank that this is not the case for the Arjun tank.

I asked about the outside weld lines, not inside pictures,

Inside pictures were discussed to death in Arjun mk-1 thread itself,

We all had a very long argument in the link below,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-335.html

I countered it with this pic below which clearly shows the periscope opening level below the roof level of Arjun turret inside,

The opening you colored in purple as vision roof block is well below the bottom of the crew hole vision blocks almost at TC's nose level height.

In fact It is almost at the level of the head of the gunner

in,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-331.html
No need to repeat it here as it is going to be the same set of arguments,

if not , what is the purpose of weld line behind the periscope under the left boot ?

You can see the two weld lines running across the width of the turret in the picture below as well,

And we are talking about ARJUN mk-2 in defexpo 2014 ,

not inside out Arjun mk-1 prototype

crew inside pictures from blue mangoe films snap you posted above,

 

[ersakthivel]

The opening you colored in purple as vision roof block is well below the bottom of the crew hole vision blocks almost at TC's nose level height.

In fact It is almost at the level of the head of the gunner

which signifies the LEO like arrangement of the periscope fitted inside the composite armor block , for which you had no answer till date,

because it the opening in the far left corner of the pic for vision block is at roof level behind the armor back plate, it won't be visible in the photo above , as the inner roof level is above the picture frame,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

British 120mm tank rounds for Arjun MBT

FSAPDS training round

HESH round

120mm rifled bore rounds from BAE

 

[Archer]

Here you go, official confirmation about an Arjun MK2 round in development though figures are not out yet and round image is of MK1 on page 2, but its confirmation nonetheless. So what we (those who have tracked the rprogram for a long time) were saying has been proven.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RwQsp55JnHg/Uv-27AyJrWI/AAAAAAAAGu4/Wnt0quFp5Wo/s1600/120mm+APFSDS-1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f4IKkkrLjMU/Uv-3HcRks9I/AAAAAAAAGvA/IgJ4JB1mtWk/s1600/120mm+APFSDS-2.jpg

About all this stuff of the Arjun schema being different and the GMS spot being a weak spot based on blurry, low resolution images.. sorry, doesnt pass the logic test either. DRDO took KMWs consultancy to the level that even the suppliers for the Leopard and Arjun were mostly the same, and the same schema was adopted wherever possible. And suddenly they decided to shave the armor off in this one area, and the IA signed off on it, and even for Arjun MK2. Right....I have a bridge in san frisco and its painted red, available for sale, cheap.

 

[methos]

Yes KMW helped developing the Arjun at a time where KMW didn't even exist...

 

[Shaitan]

 

[sayareakd]

 

[sayareakd]

Eye Safe Laser range finder (ELRF) has range of 9999 meters, which is almost 10 kms.

Therefore it is made to fire LAHAT for 8 km................

 

[sayareakd]

it has got missile firing (LAHAT/CLGM) option.

 

[militarysta]

Anyway:

 

[militarysta]

Here you go, official confirmation about an Arjun MK2 round in development though figures are not out yet and round image is of MK1 on page 2, but its confirmation nonetheless. So what we (those who have tracked the rprogram for a long time) were saying has been proven.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RwQsp55JnHg/Uv-27AyJrWI/AAAAAAAAGu4/Wnt0quFp5Wo/s1600/120mm+APFSDS-1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f4IKkkrLjMU/Uv-3HcRks9I/AAAAAAAAGvA/IgJ4JB1mtWk/s1600/120mm+APFSDS-2.jpg

Ok, but any picture of the new round will we welcome

About all this stuff of the Arjun schema being different and the GMS spot being a weak spot based on blurry, low resolution images..

The problem is that interiorr photos of the Arjun turret are not so blurred to not see obvious think - turret roof periscope is above gunner main sight (vision block) and this periscope in the roof is not IN but AFTER (or nex too) armour. More or less turret interior photos shown that GPS layout is far from Leopard-2A4 whit obvious serious weak spot here.

All is visible here:

sorry, doesnt pass the logic test either. DRDO took KMWs consultancy to the level that even the suppliers for the Leopard and Arjun were mostly the same, and the same schema was adopted wherever possible

But Arjun turret have:
a) more width gun mantled mask
b) not protected turret sides on crew comparment hight
c) lack trully blow-out plates + "bunker" for munition
So why it shoud have the same GPS layout, while interior turret photos shwon that Arjun have not the same layout?
Arjun turret looks like Leopard-2 ones but it's very diffrent in most important aspects.

 

[militarysta]

take a good look at the vision block or gunner's periscope in the LEO pic above and Arjun pic below,

IMHO the vision block or periscope is inserted inside the composite armor module in both the Arjun and Leo as the weld line on top of Arjun turret indicates clearly, (In Leo a weld line must come behind the periscope as it is shown in Arjun pic below,)

But you will accept that in case of LEO, but won't accept that in case of Arjun.

So what holds good fro LEO,

won't hold good for Arjun as far as weld lines signifying the start and end of composite armor is your opinion,

Am I right?

@methos

@Damian

Guys what do you think about

@militarysta 's opinion below?

It was explain many times: Arjun turret looks like parody of the Leopard-2 ones:
a) more width whole turret
b) more width gun mantled mask
c) lack protected by special armour turret sides on crew comparments hight
d) lack nomal blow-out plates and "bunker" whit separated door for munition in turret
And on interior photos we can see that those periscope in Arjun is placed AFTER (or nex to) armour backplate. So gunner primary sight (GPS) layout is diffrent and those part of turret layout is far from Leopard-2 ones.
Here is no conection. Simmilar in shape but completly diffrent in layout.

 

[Archer]

Yes KMW helped developing the Arjun at a time where KMW didn't even exist...

yeah it couldn't be that i was using the current name for a company aka KM that has been around since the 30's. ergo, one liners have to compensate..and that the revised arjun GSQRs saw work pick up in the 800's...again when the Leopard 2 was well established.

 

[militarysta]

I asked about the outside weld lines, not inside pictures,

Inside pictures were discussed to death in Arjun mk-1 thread itself,

We all had a very long argument in the link below,

You don't understand the problem since 2012 at least
Welding lines on armour can be misunderstand - for example for M1 Abrams line on top of the armour are diffrent then trully armour thickness, for Leopard-2A4 in som way too becouse they don't ending before but after quoite thick backplate.
In Arjun case you can see welding line on turret top - propably it's for not armour resons but technologi during welding turret roof, and this is not conected whit armour.
And this is reson why turret interior photos are so important - those photos can shown where are placed some components and we can see where is ending armour for example.

if not , what is the purpose of weld line behind the periscope under the left boot ?

Technology resons - turret roof can't be made as one big part in Arjun factory. it's all. They must welding roof from some parts. Nothin more, and nothin less.

You can see the two weld lines running across the width of the turret in the picture below as well,

As I said - technology resons for making turret roof.

 

[Archer]

militarysta, you guys are going by blurry pics without any clear idea of depth, and all sorts of hypothesis, where in one prominent case (Arjun ammo is obsolete, nothing better is on the way) where the data now speaks for itself. until and unless you end up in the actual turret and make accurate measurements, such guess work is completely moot.

as to the differences above, they are dictated by IA requirements and what was acceptable in our conditions, however deliberately reducing the armor behind the main armor wont fly with the IA at all. Mind you, they came to this schema after one where the sight was installed relatively conventionally. Net, you folks are approaching this issue with a predetermined solution, find the issue sort of stuff, whilst completely ignoring all the other supporting factors.

 

[Archer]

This is the offiicial schema from CVRDE btw,
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1538/arjunmbtdefensiveaidsys.jpg
Note the welding lines - nothing to do with technology reasons etc, for OFB assembling.

 

[militarysta]

militarysta, you guys are going by blurry pics without any clear idea of depth, and all sorts of hypothesis, where in one prominent case (Arjun ammo is obsolete, nothing better is on the way) where the data now speaks for itself. until and unless you end up in the actual turret and make accurate measurements, such guess work is completely moot.

Archer, really - measure some LOS thickens is not rocket science. I made this for Leopard-2A4, for T-90A, and for other tank. My error was circa 2-5% depend on photo or taking mesurments points. It's not so difficult. And we have some Arjun Mk.I or prototypes interior turret photos. And it's not relevant if those photos are blurred or not - we can see this what we must see to say when armour is ending. Turret roof periscope above gunner head is one indicator, technology opening for fume extractor or radio antena near turret sides are second indicators where is armour ending, etc. It's really not complicated.
And it's not relevant if Arjun LOS after GPS is 320 or 360mm. It's to small value to stop any APFSDS or HEAT now. Just this. In other tank this value is around 650-840mm...so twice better at least.

BTW:

(Arjun ammo is obsolete, nothing better is on the way)

Existing NOW ammo is obsolate. You say that new ammo is devleoped, OK, but untill it will be introduced to service and production avaible NOW amunition for Arjun is obsolate.
You have some good infos and you write about indian 125 and 120mm APFSDS/FAPSDS ammo - thank Good becouse it was very informative post and it was greate explain indian army ammo problems.

 

[Archer]

This is the offiicial schema from CVRDE btw,
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1538/arjunmbtdefensiveaidsys.jpg
Note the welding lines - nothing to do with technology reasons etc, for OFB assembling.