Argentina light fighter jet contract

Roland55

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Man, we need to do something about the British and American components in Tejas. Kaveri is still nowhere in sight, though GRSE is confident of getting the engine out in time for the AMCA and TEDBF. I never understand why we buy British and American stuff even when we know the amount of restrictions they have for end user control.

Snecma M88 would have made so much more sense for Tejas. But MoD babus are so selfish and short-sighted that they don't see all this.
The only issue are british components, american ones have no issue, and even recently the chief of SOUTHCOM stated that they will work towards argentina getting a "Western multirole aircraft". Although i say we'll have to wait until the government changes.
 

Roland55

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The only issue are british components, american ones have no issue, and even recently the chief of SOUTHCOM stated that they will work towards argentina getting a "Western multirole aircraft". Although i say we'll have to wait until the government changes.
i might add that this is a mere political thing regarding certain parties that govern the country, during the previous administration, there were not issues at all. So a better look by Uk's gov could bypass the purchase of a plane with Uk made components.

Yeah, you know i like tejas better..
 

Tshering22

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The only issue are british components, american ones have no issue, and even recently the chief of SOUTHCOM stated that they will work towards argentina getting a "Western multirole aircraft". Although i say we'll have to wait until the government changes.
American ones in general are troublesome for further third party sales, not just for Argentina. My point is, if we have to be a net-exporter in the future, our third-party sales should be free from end-user control of our suppliers. That means we do it one of the two ways:
  1. Either source parts from neutral countries like France, Switzerland, Sweden, Israel, etc. who don't give a damn what we do once we give them the money
  2. Go the China way and start making everything in-house so that no one can tell us anything.
Given the Indian political tendency to look short-term at everything, option 1 seems more viable at this point. An AESA sourced from Israel till the arrival of Uttam AESA radar will make more sense for Argentina. Likewise, there is a chance of UK putting pressure on the USA in future if things get hairy between them and the Argentinians again. That would mean US turning the switch off for spares of GE-414s/404s.

We don't want that especially since we will get a bad reputation in the arms market.

Therefore, avoiding the Anglophones altogether in defence sourcing from hereon is the pragmatic way to go forward.
 

Roland55

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American ones in general are troublesome for further third party sales, not just for Argentina. My point is, if we have to be a net-exporter in the future, our third-party sales should be free from end-user control of our suppliers. That means we do it one of the two ways:
  1. Either source parts from neutral countries like France, Switzerland, Sweden, Israel, etc. who don't give a damn what we do once we give them the money
  2. Go the China way and start making everything in-house so that no one can tell us anything.
Given the Indian political tendency to look short-term at everything, option 1 seems more viable at this point. An AESA sourced from Israel till the arrival of Uttam AESA radar will make more sense for Argentina. Likewise, there is a chance of UK putting pressure on the USA in future if things get hairy between them and the Argentinians again. That would mean US turning the switch off for spares of GE-414s/404s.

We don't want that especially since we will get a bad reputation in the arms market.

Therefore, avoiding the Anglophones altogether in defence sourcing from hereon is the pragmatic way to go forward.
I understand, but there is a main concern for the US...would they leave china to enter LATAM and expand its arms market (+ their influence in the region, sure argentina might be in a bad situation but it still a pillar in the region)? just because the Uk doesn't want certain weapons systems to be sold at them?
 

Marliii

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Man, we need to do something about the British and American components in Tejas. Kaveri is still nowhere in sight, though GRSE is confident of getting the engine out in time for the AMCA and TEDBF. I never understand why we buy British and American stuff even when we know the amount of restrictions they have for end user control.

Snecma M88 would have made so much more sense for Tejas. But MoD babus are so selfish and short-sighted that they don't see all this.
The martin baker ejection seat in jf17 is british right?
 

Covfefe

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Man, we need to do something about the British and American components in Tejas. Kaveri is still nowhere in sight, though GRSE is confident of getting the engine out in time for the AMCA and TEDBF. I never understand why we buy British and American stuff even when we know the amount of restrictions they have for end user control.

Snecma M88 would have made so much more sense for Tejas. But MoD babus are so selfish and short-sighted that they don't see all this.
I don't think Indian Gov wants to go the China/ Russia way- they will not risk their relations with the Brits by selling military equipment to Argentina, even if we were to replace the components sourced from these countries. (HAL/MoD never cleared any proposal to the Argentine RFI- Annual Report only had Malaysia LCA program, US Navy trainer, and Australian Navy Trainer). Brits are finicky about Falklands and more so after the Hong Kong debacle.

We buy British and American stuff mostly for their quality at an optimum price. Europeans are too hypocritical and charge a bomb for any upgrade(Mirage 2k) or user-specific modification(Rafales). Also, during the 90s, the M88-2 variant was available which had slightly inferior performance than the already serving GE F404 (they used this for the prototype of Rafale in the 80s)

JF17 fits the bill for Argentina- cheap, effective, and no restrictions from the sourced country. It is like Mig29 of the 1980s.(ironically with the same engine 😝)
 

arnab

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I don't think Indian Gov wants to go the China/ Russia way- they will not risk their relations with the Brits by selling military equipment to Argentina, even if we were to replace the components sourced from these countries. (HAL/MoD never cleared any proposal to the Argentine RFI- Annual Report only had Malaysia LCA program, US Navy trainer, and Australian Navy Trainer). Brits are finicky about Falklands and more so after the Hong Kong debacle.

We buy British and American stuff mostly for their quality at an optimum price. Europeans are too hypocritical and charge a bomb for any upgrade(Mirage 2k) or user-specific modification(Rafales). Also, during the 90s, the M88-2 variant was available which had slightly inferior performance than the already serving GE F404 (they used this for the prototype of Rafale in the 80s)

JF17 fits the bill for Argentina- cheap, effective, and no restrictions from the sourced country. It is like Mig29 of the 1980s.(ironically with the same engine 😝)
if JF17 is pakistani...Iphone is Indian !
 

Tang

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if JF17 is pakistani...Iphone is Indian !
Even that's an incorrect analogy,
I have asked Pakistanis to name atleast 10 LRUs they are making for FC01/JF17,
They are yet to give me the answer,

Pakis are just assembling some parts(made in china) for JF17,

Pakistani industrial base is not mature enough to make a 250cc bike, forget about fighter jet parts of even 70-80 tech.


Keep in mind HAL started manufacturing fighter jets in 60s.
 

arnab

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Even that's an incorrect analogy,
I have asked Pakistanis to name atleast 10 LRUs they are making for FC01/JF17,
They are yet to give me the answer,

Pakis are just assembling some parts(made in china) for JF17,

Pakistani industrial base is not mature enough to make a 250cc bike, forget about fighter jet parts of even 70-80 tech.


Keep in mind HAL started manufacturing fighter jets in 60s.
waste of time arguing with a pakistani patriot...whenever they are lost all they do is yell "Tea was fantastic"... forgetting that the tea was also Indian...

i think we Indians shud be mature by now and shud trend #CongratsChina4JF17sale... one can only hope that pakis will not start badmouthing their chinese sugardaddies hogging all the credit ! and remind the pakistanis that perhaps the only pakistani contribution in jf17 is that they made tea for the chinese engineers...it cracks me up when a puny azerbaijan or turkey extols pakistani jf17 as some great weapon of global islam...! but you cannoy really blame them because the sadhguru of strategic affairs, AKA abhijit iyer mitra helps them sell their narrative as to how Tejas is a complete failure and how JF17 is second to none...! lets wait for the series of comic fauz pas that Imran khan is going to cause at USA in the next few days.
 

Alfalfa

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Is there any beef between Brazil and Argentina?
Is that a pun? Between Argentina and Brazil - beef hi beef hai bhai...

On a serious note, this thread seems a little bitter, fact is that the JF-17 has somewhat of a toehold in the export market while the Tejas kept doing summer and winter trial summersaults...We can talk about Nigeria and Myanmar being jokes - they are... but a sale is a sale, period.

Also at $664 Mn for 12 aircrafts it works down to about 55 Mn. a frame.. while the Tejas deal was for about 72 Mn. a frame... so with some haircuts on the offering I'm sure our pricing could have been competitive... who knows what transpired, I highly doubt that Cobham designing nose cones gives the UK enough of a say in disallowing HAL to sell to a 3rd party, I could be wrong but AFAIK the Tejas wasnt offered to Argies at all, Argies are extremely friendly with the Chinese - not worth risking the exposure for a deal of 12 jets.
 

Tshering22

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I don't think Indian Gov wants to go the China/ Russia way- they will not risk their relations with the Brits by selling military equipment to Argentina, even if we were to replace the components sourced from these countries. (HAL/MoD never cleared any proposal to the Argentine RFI- Annual Report only had Malaysia LCA program, US Navy trainer, and Australian Navy Trainer). Brits are finicky about Falklands and more so after the Hong Kong debacle.

We buy British and American stuff mostly for their quality at an optimum price. Europeans are too hypocritical and charge a bomb for any upgrade(Mirage 2k) or user-specific modification(Rafales). Also, during the 90s, the M88-2 variant was available which had slightly inferior performance than the already serving GE F404 (they used this for the prototype of Rafale in the 80s)

JF17 fits the bill for Argentina- cheap, effective, and no restrictions from the sourced country. It is like Mig29 of the 1980s.(ironically with the same engine 😝)
The Brits supply shit-ton of stuff to the Pakistanis for all these years, claiming neutrality and you are saying we should respect them? The only reason why they don't supply stuff ot Pakistan today is because it has 0 money to buy stuff. If the Pakis were better off like Turkey or Poland, Brits would be marketing their Typhoons right now without giving a rat's ass about our concerns. Be sure of it.

We should do the same. Argentina has been a friend and can be a potential ally. They have massive reserves of Lithium, which we are trying to secure in competition with the Chinese. We have huge stakes with them, versus the Brits who are a dying power and will soon become irrelevant in a decade.

I know HAL is trying to partner with RR for the AMCA engines, but the Anglosphere is known for deceit. The French may be expensive, but they are open to favours; meaning they do us a favour and we do them one in return. This is not because they are benevolent, but simply because

a) They have a gripe against the Anglophones who shorted them on the nuke tech long ago, and

b) They just know they can make money by getting into our good books by manipulating our dislike for the Anglos

Given Latin America's support for us, I think we should just take this opportunity and push for more defence engagement with them, regardless of what the Disunited Kingdom thinks of us. They had their time and they messed it up.

Besides, Argentines are just replacing their archaic fleet & ensuring their pilots don't go down the way our MiG-21Bis ones go. It's not like the AAF would be bombing London or anything. Even if they are, that's none of our business. It is up to the Argentinians as to whether they use Tejas for joyrides or for taking back Las Malvinas.
 

Covfefe

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The Brits supply shit-ton of stuff to the Pakistanis for all these years, claiming neutrality and you are saying we should respect them? The only reason why they don't supply stuff ot Pakistan today is because it has 0 money to buy stuff. If the Pakis were better off like Turkey or Poland, Brits would be marketing their Typhoons right now without giving a rat's ass about our concerns. Be sure of it
We all know that. But it's our dependence on them- be it direct in terms of critical components for the fighter jet, or a broader relationship as a whole. Brits have had pretty cordial relations with the Indian govt since the Independence, and has actually helped India gain diplomatic foothold with the Americans and the Europeans. Looking at all of that with just one Pakistan lens, is slightly unfair. Pakistan is the bastard child/ "baharwali" - they love that kind of stuff for some twisted gains in a different spectrum- controlling Russia, eye on China, keeping India under check and what not.
Given Latin America's support for us, I think we should just take this opportunity and push for more defence engagement with them, regardless of what the Disunited Kingdom thinks of us. They had their time and they messed it up.
Wholeheartedly agree with the fact that there should be a very broad based relationship with the South American nations. That's one continent where our presence is minimal.
It's not like the AAF would be bombing London or anything
Yup, this has been discussed already. 12-18 light combat aircraft can make no dent to one of the biggest militaries in the world.
I know HAL is trying to partner with RR for the AMCA engines, but the Anglosphere is known for deceit
Man, RR is a profit making enterprise. They don't give a damn about Anglosphere or Desisphere. We should just take the better deal wherever we get it from- French or the Brits. And anyone who wishes to gain power is deceitful- Japanese, Chinese, Americans, Brits, Ruskies. That's simply the nature of empire.
And Brits may or may not be relevant in a decade, but they are very relevant today.
 

Tshering22

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I understand, but there is a main concern for the US...would they leave china to enter LATAM and expand its arms market (+ their influence in the region, sure Argentina might be in a bad situation but it is still a pillar in the region)? just because the Uk doesn't want certain weapons systems to be sold at them?
Argentina is an important country in the Americas and there's no doubt about it. But tell me honestly - the UK also sucks it up for US' sake many times in foreign affairs and will not back down in certain areas where it would expect the Americans to reciprocate. Washington knows that it cannot push UK or most of its core allies beyond a certain point without breaking them, hence they might give in on this one. Especially since the order is not of so many aircraft.

My concern is that until we have GTX-35VS turbofan engines ready, we need a PLAN B if we have to export. It is a supplier's concern. Mind you, we have been screwed by the US before, hence the delay in Tejas program. It was supposed to join our air force in 2010 originally.
 

Tshering22

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We all know that. But it's our dependence on them- be it directly in terms of critical components for the fighter jet, or a broader relationship as a whole. Brits have had pretty cordial relations with the Indian govt since the Independence and have actually helped India gain a diplomatic foothold with the Americans and the Europeans. Looking at all of that with just one Pakistan lens is slightly unfair. Pakistan is the bastard child/ "bahar wali" - they love that kind of stuff for some twisted gains in a different spectrum- controlling Russia, eye on China, keeping India under check, and whatnot.
I am not telling that we need to cut our ties with the British. Strong diplomatic & commercial ties with them are important. But we can slowly wean ourselves away from that system and create our own.

My point is that we need to create a military-industrial complex that is independent of the Anglosphere. While they lead the world in military technologies, we have several alternatives available that are just as good or second-best to them that can be used as our foundation.

France, Sweden, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine, etc. are fine examples. They have a strong pedigree of military-industrial complex. For example, if we can make our own ejection seats, we won't need to buy from Martin Baker. Now there's a big problem; if we were to offer the Argentinians with Russian Zvezda seats, Tejas will have to be recertified all over again.

By the way, we are not the only ones that are having issues with the Anglophones. If France can start reducing US-made tech in their defense goods, you can imagine how unreliable these countries are.

Man, RR is a profit-making enterprise. They don't give a damn about Anglosphere or Desisphere. We should just take the better deal wherever we get it from- French or the Brits. And anyone who wishes to gain power is deceitful- Japanese, Chinese, Americans, Brits, Ruskies. That's simply the nature of empire.
And Brits may or may not be relevant in a decade, but they are very relevant today.
RR is subject to British laws which in turn are controlled by the US-led alliance. Simply put, they cannot talk about profits if the deep state puts its foot down. I don't mind a commercial deal with them but you know how a very close engagement with the Anglos ends up for us diplomatically - you can see it in the current undercurrents behind all the so-called bonhomie politically.

I am talking about taking measures that will benefit the country 15 years down the line. Remember, 15 years from today, we will be where China is today. At that time, they won't care whether we are a democracy or not. They will only see us as competitors the way they see China right now.
 

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