Andaman & Nicobar Defence Discussion

Okabe Rintarou

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It will be bone to increase trade with the SEA countries . To capture the 75 crores plus market series of Ports are needed on the eastern coast of india A & N islands need lot of infracture to developed and sustain large scale operation . Ports at A & N will cut the dominance of Sri Lanka as a place for shipments . Nicobar island lies exactly on the routes passing through the Malacca straits and Sri Lanka . Ports in andaman will be only useful if Kra Canal is build .
Don't SEA countries have ports like Singapore to rely on for transshipment? I stated Andaman as a better site because if transhipment is meant for India, lack of proximity of Andaman to trade routes will not be that big a problem. But yeah, if this port is indeed destined to serve SEA and not just India, then Great Nicobar makes some sense. The military argument still stands though.
 

Tanmay

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Transshipment ports would serve India. right? Since many of our ports can't accommodate deep draft vessels. This takes business away from Sri Lanka. But why Great Nicobar? Transshipment hubs would require a large body of dock workers, etc. Eventually, an entire tier-1 city could develop around such a facility. Would Andaman islands not have been better for that? Its got population, land area and a self-sustaining economy.

Great Nicobar should be reserved mostly for military use. Expanding it into a Naval staging area for power projection into the South China Sea should be our long term goal. Even from a defensive standpoint, Andaman and other Nicobar islands can be defended better if we have Great Nicobar as a shield. Its big enough to house a full fledged Air and Naval base. Maybe even station the 91st Infantry Brigade there eventually?
I dont know the reasons but here's my layman take

Great Nicobar is directly situated at mouth of Malacca Straits.

Port Blair is around 550 km away from Great Nicobar. At 15 knots (approx 30km/hr) speed, a container ship needs one day to travel 550kms.
So basically the international ship can save one full day by avoiding going to Port blair and dump cargo at Great Nicobar and continue on usual shipping lane along Malacca.

Besides Great Nicobar seems to have many bays protected from rough seas and less tribal population (<100 tribals perhaps). However it does host a biosphere reserve which could rile up environmentalists, but tahst the case with entire A&N.


01.JPG


Besides, It will create another fortress in Great Nicobar with private funds kicking in.

Could be used to expand the airport and port to base bigger navy ships without investing dedicated defence funds
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Whenever I think about defence of A&N islands, I always think about the Battle of Iwo Jima. My reference was mostly what I've seen about it on the twin movies: Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima as well as episodes of The Pacific that focused on this battle. But this declassified video presents an entirely new perspective to those stories as it details the pre-landing phase of the battle:-




Iwo Jima was obviously a hard fought victory for a much superior American force and it became so because of the entire Japanese Army Division and its numerous artillery pieces that were defending Iwo Jima even after the Japanese Navy lost control of the seas around the island.

In comparison, our situation seems to be where we have only the 91st Infantry Brigade to defend the entire A&C islands and Lakshadweep as well. And the 91st isn't even stationed on these islands, they are in Kochi.

Now we are talking about making Great Nicobar into a major economic center and transshipment hub. Just for comparison, Great Nicobar alone is 4385.7% larger than Iwo Jima. In wartime, we might not even be able to spare an entire brigade to defend it.

Which means that our entire strategy is to not lose the Naval Fleet Battle for control of Andaman sea in the first place. Meanwhile, everyone is aware of the Chinese fleet size growth and also their Marine capabilities growing especially with Type 075 LHA and Type 071 LPD ships that indicate that PLAN is looking to create a marine capability comparable to USA.

I myself have been against creating an Indian Marine Force, and also have been against reducing the number of active combat units on our borders with China and Pakistan. And we all know that the size of our military is already too large in proportion to our budget so we can't raise new units anymore.

And yet A&C will be practically defenceless if we lose the Naval Battle against PLAN (which seems likely if our Naval buildup doesn't gather pace). And yet the third carriers, etc are not coming anytime soon. My only hope at this point is that America is able to put enough pressure on PLAN so that in wartime, they become unable to send most of their fleet to take on Indian Navy. But even relying on that hope is inadvisable because for USA, it will be a win-win if China and India weaken each other and India loses these islands permanently. For them, both India and China are rivals.

TL;DR setting aside the possibility of whether PLAN will be to send enough forces to IOR to be able to mount a large amphibious attack on A&C islands, what is our defence plan if this actually happens.
 

Love Charger

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Whenever I think about defence of A&N islands, I always think about the Battle of Iwo Jima. My reference was mostly what I've seen about it on the twin movies: Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima as well as episodes of The Pacific that focused on this battle. But this declassified video presents an entirely new perspective to those stories as it details the pre-landing phase of the battle:-




Iwo Jima was obviously a hard fought victory for a much superior American force and it became so because of the entire Japanese Army Division and its numerous artillery pieces that were defending Iwo Jima even after the Japanese Navy lost control of the seas around the island.

In comparison, our situation seems to be where we have only the 91st Infantry Brigade to defend the entire A&C islands and Lakshadweep as well. And the 91st isn't even stationed on these islands, they are in Kochi.

Now we are talking about making Great Nicobar into a major economic center and transshipment hub. Just for comparison, Great Nicobar alone is 4385.7% larger than Iwo Jima. In wartime, we might not even be able to spare an entire brigade to defend it.

Which means that our entire strategy is to not lose the Naval Fleet Battle for control of Andaman sea in the first place. Meanwhile, everyone is aware of the Chinese fleet size growth and also their Marine capabilities growing especially with Type 075 LHA and Type 071 LPD ships that indicate that PLAN is looking to create a marine capability comparable to USA.

I myself have been against creating an Indian Marine Force, and also have been against reducing the number of active combat units on our borders with China and Pakistan. And we all know that the size of our military is already too large in proportion to our budget so we can't raise new units anymore.

And yet A&C will be practically defenceless if we lose the Naval Battle against PLAN (which seems likely if our Naval buildup doesn't gather pace). And yet the third carriers, etc are not coming anytime soon. My only hope at this point is that America is able to put enough pressure on PLAN so that in wartime, they become unable to send most of their fleet to take on Indian Navy. But even relying on that hope is inadvisable because for USA, it will be a win-win if China and India weaken each other and India loses these islands permanently. For them, both India and China are rivals.

TL;DR setting aside the possibility of whether PLAN will be to send enough forces to IOR to be able to mount a large amphibious attack on A&C islands, what is our defence plan if this actually happens.
Well sir, " our pants will go down if we fight
But nevertheless, we shall fight and win " that's the strategy for now and foreseeable future
@shade ji can better tell us
 

omaebakabaka

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Whenever I think about defence of A&N islands, I always think about the Battle of Iwo Jima. My reference was mostly what I've seen about it on the twin movies: Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima as well as episodes of The Pacific that focused on this battle. But this declassified video presents an entirely new perspective to those stories as it details the pre-landing phase of the battle:-




Iwo Jima was obviously a hard fought victory for a much superior American force and it became so because of the entire Japanese Army Division and its numerous artillery pieces that were defending Iwo Jima even after the Japanese Navy lost control of the seas around the island.

In comparison, our situation seems to be where we have only the 91st Infantry Brigade to defend the entire A&C islands and Lakshadweep as well. And the 91st isn't even stationed on these islands, they are in Kochi.

Now we are talking about making Great Nicobar into a major economic center and transshipment hub. Just for comparison, Great Nicobar alone is 4385.7% larger than Iwo Jima. In wartime, we might not even be able to spare an entire brigade to defend it.

Which means that our entire strategy is to not lose the Naval Fleet Battle for control of Andaman sea in the first place. Meanwhile, everyone is aware of the Chinese fleet size growth and also their Marine capabilities growing especially with Type 075 LHA and Type 071 LPD ships that indicate that PLAN is looking to create a marine capability comparable to USA.

I myself have been against creating an Indian Marine Force, and also have been against reducing the number of active combat units on our borders with China and Pakistan. And we all know that the size of our military is already too large in proportion to our budget so we can't raise new units anymore.

And yet A&C will be practically defenceless if we lose the Naval Battle against PLAN (which seems likely if our Naval buildup doesn't gather pace). And yet the third carriers, etc are not coming anytime soon. My only hope at this point is that America is able to put enough pressure on PLAN so that in wartime, they become unable to send most of their fleet to take on Indian Navy. But even relying on that hope is inadvisable because for USA, it will be a win-win if China and India weaken each other and India loses these islands permanently. For them, both India and China are rivals.

TL;DR setting aside the possibility of whether PLAN will be to send enough forces to IOR to be able to mount a large amphibious attack on A&C islands, what is our defence plan if this actually happens.
This is not just andaman specific if you look closely at any of the sectors. We neither carry an attack or defence profile to sustain any heavy loses over somewhat extended period. With navy, we may cause some damage to Chinese fleet and hold the island until the reserves of ships and infantry can reach the island but as you said we are short of too many things and the optimistic timeline some talk about here is just not enough even if it was realized in terms of # of ships. MKI should in theory be able to have enough combat range to launch missiles and come back to base even without refueling and bramhos integration is probably part of that play too.....it is kinda hard for us to lose as it is very tough for China to hold it in the worst case......we need immense production of missiles that can be launched from mainland. In summary we can't afford to fight wars with purchased weapons anymore....indigenous is the only way. I have not heard any exercises to train for these scenarios in a coordinated way. I doubt our leadership or plebs have any stomach to escalate to nuclear war, we will bitch and moan with borrowed diplomatic latin or french phrases if the worst case scenario were to occur.
 
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Love Charger

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This is not just andaman specific if you look closely at any of the sectors. We neither carry an attack or defence profile to sustain any heavy loses over somewhat extended period. With navy, we may cause some damage to Chinese fleet and hold the island until the reserves of ships and infantry can reach the island but as you said we are short of too many things and the optimistic timeline some talk about here is just not enough even if it was realized in terms of # of ships. MKI should in theory be able to have enough combat range to launch missiles and come back to base even without refueling and bramhos integration is probably part of that play too.....it is kinda hard for us to lose as it is very tough for China to hold it in the worst case......we need immense production of missiles that can be launched from mainland. In summary we can't afford to fight wars with purchased weapons anymore....indigenous is the only way
Defence corridor coming up for missile production exclusively in UP but i doubt we can produce enough in time .
 

omaebakabaka

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In either of Gujarat, UP, Maharashtra, Karnataka or Tamil Nadu, you can produce anything in time. These are industrial powerhouses of country provided logistics support is there.
In theory true, have we ever attempted or perhaps we do and its classified in converting civilian production capabilities to war time needs? Any reports or data around mock trainings or mandatory laws and so on? I am pessimistic considering the overall attitude of our system to think this far unless fire gets lit under our ass like galwan and Rajnath flies to moscow to buy emergency r73s. These things require training at all levels especially management and defense logistics and so on. Covid is one instance where we successfully stepped up to our potential even when compared to developed countries. So there is hope but it needs to be part of thinking with Chinas rise.
 
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Love Charger

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In theory true, have we ever attempted or perhaps we do and its classified in converting civilian production capabilities to war time needs? Any reports or data around mock trainings or mandatory laws and so on? I am pessimistic considering the overall attitude of our system to think this far unless fire gets lit under our ass like galwan and Rajnath flies to moscow to buy emergency r73s.
You are wanting us to function amd prepare like Americans and Europe's during world wars .
Have we fought such wars ? Like they did , I am pessimistic in this regard like you .
 

Okabe Rintarou

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This is not just andaman specific if you look closely at any of the sectors. We neither carry an attack or defence profile to sustain any heavy loses over somewhat extended period. With navy, we may cause some damage to Chinese fleet and hold the island until the reserves of ships and infantry can reach the island but as you said we are short of too many things and the optimistic timeline some talk about here is just not enough even if it was realized in terms of # of ships. MKI should in theory be able to have enough combat range to launch missiles and come back to base even without refueling and bramhos integration is probably part of that play too.....it is kinda hard for us to lose as it is very tough for China to hold it in the worst case......we need immense production of missiles that can be launched from mainland. In summary we can't afford to fight wars with purchased weapons anymore....indigenous is the only way. I have not heard any exercises to train for these scenarios in a coordinated way. I doubt our leadership or plebs have any stomach to escalate to nuclear war, we will bitch and moan with borrowed diplomatic latin or french phrases if the worst case scenario were to occur.
Agree. Although we do carry out some limited amphibious ops exercises with the 91st Inf Bde and the LCUs and at times the INS Jalashwa.

In theory true, have we ever attempted or perhaps we do and its classified in converting civilian production capabilities to war time needs? Any reports or data around mock trainings or mandatory laws and so on? I am pessimistic considering the overall attitude of our system to think this far unless fire gets lit under our ass like galwan and Rajnath flies to moscow to buy emergency r73s. These things require training at all levels especially management and defense logistics and so on. Covid is one instance where we successfully stepped up to our potential even when compared to developed countries. So there is hope but it needs to be part of thinking with Chinas rise.
These things are detailed in the Union War Book and State War Books. Ofcourse these are Top Secret documents (which is the highest classification level in Indian system), so only excerpts are available on a strictly need to know basis to almost everyone except a handful at the apex level who can access the whole thing (and are thus best placed to think holistically about the entire thing). Problem is that the War Books aren't revised frequently and our country is evolving a lot faster than these War Books are evolving (at least based on information in the public domain).


Defence corridor coming up for missile production exclusively in UP but i doubt we can produce enough in time .
In either of Gujarat, UP, Maharashtra, Karnataka or Tamil Nadu, you can produce anything in time. These are industrial powerhouses of country provided logistics support is there.
Hopefully the Russo-Ukrainian war in conjunction with Galwan and current Indo-China stand-off serves as some kind of a wake up call and we seriously assess if we can seamlessly switch to wartime production or PGMs. The question is PGMs. Otherwise we will be able to switch to wartime production of most other types of ammo now that the private sector is getting involved in a big way. One serving Officer was also quite upbeat about that. But like I said, this optimism doesn't extend to PGMs yet and the War Books need to be updated to capture the recent advent of Private Defence Arms Industrial Corridors.
 

Indx TechStyle

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In theory true, have we ever attempted or perhaps we do and its classified in converting civilian production capabilities to war time needs? Any reports or data around mock trainings or mandatory laws and so on? I am pessimistic considering the overall attitude of our system to think this far unless fire gets lit under our ass like galwan and Rajnath flies to moscow to buy emergency r73s. These things require training at all levels especially management and defense logistics and so on. Covid is one instance where we successfully stepped up to our potential even when compared to developed countries. So there is hope but it needs to be part of thinking with Chinas rise.
Heavy industries - Yes for manufacturing ammunition and other relatively simple things like artillery rockets and spare parts of SAMs. You don't need to produce data for same as fabrication companies are filled like roadside shops in India. My current company, unrelated to west supplied during Kargil war.

Lower density for exotic elements fabrication like Titanium.
I have no data for aerospace.
Regards
 

omaebakabaka

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These things are detailed in the Union War Book and State War Books. Ofcourse these are Top Secret documents (which is the highest classification level in Indian system), so only excerpts are available on a strictly need to know basis to almost everyone except a handful at the apex level who can access the whole thing (and are thus best placed to think holistically about the entire thing). Problem is that the War Books aren't revised frequently and our country is evolving a lot faster than these War Books are evolving (at least based on information in the public domain).
I am sure code books and manuals exist which is why I said may be those are classified but as an engineer myself, theory needs to be validated. We have code books for zoning, highways, asphalt mixing and ppm tolerances and so on and so forth. There is simply no data to suggest any of them are maintained organically nor enforced nor validated. We just need to look around our rivers, forests, zoning of cities and so on. Switching to war time requires lot of resourcefulness and training and planning of exactly what, how, when and where of not just resources but people too.....most of our code books are derived from foreign ones and mostly british in nature.

Covid step up was a pleasant surprise and shows that we have potential to be way better and disciplined but I would like to see more training, exercising and not everything should be classified as bs could just be covered up under that. Reports were that we are seriously depleted on the ammo side also and only recently that position is bettered by taking measures.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Lower density for exotic elements fabrication like Titanium.
I have no data for aerospace.
Regards
Titanium supply chain has recently become entirely indigenous so we should be covered there. Kroll process would be the bottleneck, most likely. There our capacity is being expanded so I think we are relatively safe in this area.

But what about other non-ferrous metals like Tungsten, etc? Rare Earths? Electronics? I think the most severe bottlenecks would exist there.

I am sure code books and manuals exist which is why I said may be those are classified but as an engineer myself, theory needs to be validated. We have code books for zoning, highways, asphalt mixing and ppm tolerances and so on and so forth. There is simply no data to suggest any of them are maintained organically nor enforced nor validated. We just need to look around our rivers, forests, zoning of cities and so on. Switching to war time requires lot of resourcefulness and training and planning of exactly what, how, when and where of not just resources but people too.....most of our code books are derived from foreign ones and mostly british in nature.

Covid step up was a pleasant surprise and shows that we have potential to be way better and disciplined but I would like to see more training, exercising and not everything should be classified as bs could just be covered up under that. Reports were that we are seriously depleted on the ammo side also and only recently that position is bettered by taking measures.
That I fully agree with. Although such exercises take place piecemeal (only at few critical installations like Nuclear Plants), a large scale coordinated exercise is unprecedented. Even a mock drill would be good. Even a tabletop exercise. But they need to do it to validate the theory and guide the revision of the theory that is outdated.
 

Blademaster

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You are wanting us to function amd prepare like Americans and Europe's during world wars .
Have we fought such wars ? Like they did , I am pessimistic in this regard like you .
Well there is that BIA, the British Indian Army. It was the largest formation in the British Empire during WWI & WWII. Not only that, India was the largest tax base for the British Empire and the site of many war foodstuffs (which contributed to the Bengal famine and other famines) and raw resources. Still, not manufactured goods. However this will change in the upcoming decades as we realize the Atmanibharat policy in force.
 

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