Ancient Indian Empires and Weapons

BeEverVectorMan

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
331
Likes
931
Country flag
I was wondering how was our hierarchy
Was it Raja, senapati, mantri
Or Raja, pradhan mantri, senapati
 

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
Is that so?.. Ok then you should have no trouble presenting that example with its source, origin & time estimation.

For the sake of argument, I'm gonna ignore the thousands of unarmoured ones.
He's not making it up. It's a excavation from Ter, Satavahana era, 1st Century AD. Both the elephant and rider is padded, armored. With a long bow attached. The elephant seems to have a chamfron of some material on.

ancientindianwarrior93.png


ancientindianwarrior86.jpg


There is two figure also that I think is from Ter that have similar armor.
 

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
11thcentkatar.jpg


Oldest depiction of the punch dagger - 'katar' - 11th Century AD

After nearly 30 years, the inscriptions on a hero stone discovered in Selakarichal and placed at Government Museum have been deciphered, revealing the name of a king who ruled Kongu Region in the 11th century.

The deciphering was done by three heritage enthusiasts – S. Anandhakumar, N. Sudhakar and R. Kumaravel – in coordination with C. Sivakumar, curator of the Government Museum. “We at the Museum estimated that the hero stone was from the 16th century based on its structure, but the inscriptions revealed that it was actually from the 11th century,” Mr. Sivakumar told The Hindu.

The king, Veerakeralan Adhirajarajan, ruled from 1093 CE to 1116 CE and this stone dated back to 1099 CE, Mr. Kumaravel said. The king hailed from the Veerakeralan clan, who were the branch rulers of the Chera dynasty.

The inscriptions describe the death of a man from the Pooluvar clan in Selakarichal during a conflict. However, due to erosion of the stone, details such as his name and the grant offered could not be deciphered.

A particular line in the inscription that reads ‘Palayiravar Ilavar Rakshai’ denotes that warriors of the Palayiravar army, who were present in Kongu Region between 10th and 13th century, took the responsibility of safeguarding the grant offered to the man who died in the conflict, Mr. Kumaravel explained. Modern-day Palladam in Tiruppur district is spelt in the inscription as ‘Pallodam’.

In a statement, R. Poongundran, retired Assistant Director of the Tamil Nadu State Department of Archaeology described this hero stone to be “historically significant” due to its antiquity and the inscriptions bearing the king’s name.

Adding to this, Mr. Sivakumar said that such antiquated hero stones were rare in Kongu Region despite the practice of erecting hero stones in the region was present since the Sangam period (6th century BCE to 1st century CE) in the region.

Uniqueness
With a height of 114 cm and width of 99 cm, the hero stone is also unique in its design as it depicts the ‘hero’ in combat, holding the tuft (kudumi in Tamil) of his opponent with his left hand and punching the opponent with his right hand. Both of them were depicted with earrings known as Pathira Kundalam and wearing other ornaments on their hips, Mr. Sivakumar said.

 

nongaddarliberal

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
1,867
Likes
5,600
Country flag
Is that so?.. Ok then you should have no trouble presenting that example with its source, origin & time estimation.

For the sake of argument, I'm gonna ignore the thousands of unarmoured ones.
During the first arab invasions, when the Gurjara Pratihara was fighting the arabs, what sort of swords and armour were our guys equipped with? In fact, what was the standard Indian armour (or lack thereof), when ghaznavi and other turkic tribes invaded in the 1200s-1300s?
 

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
cholahilt.jpg


11th Century AD, Chola, Brihadishvara Temple, Thanjavur

Chola Blade with the typical early-late medieval Indian quillons.



You can see the same quillons in modern Khandas some times Talwars. Termed the Hindu Basket Hilt. There is now an addition of hand guards and appendage below the pommel.
 
Last edited:

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
2,825
Likes
7,991
Country flag
He's not making it up. It's a excavation from Ter, Satavahana era, 1st Century AD. Both the elephant and rider is padded, armored. With a long bow attached. The elephant seems to have a chamfron of some material on.

View attachment 51786
Yeah ok, that definitely looks like armour. Still, And an unique rarity... Probably a royal guard or something. Only 1 single specimen against hundreds of thousands of naked elephants.

And armour much inferior to standard seleucid plate & scale. Indians did not adopt the tower-like arrow proof howdah from the western neighbours either.
imperial1515715787_077-13_.jpg

During the first arab invasions, when the Gurjara Pratihara was fighting the arabs, what sort of swords and armour were our guys equipped with? In fact, what was the standard Indian armour (or lack thereof), when ghaznavi and other turkic tribes invaded in the 1200s-1300s?
Very similar to Arabs, round-tipped straightswords & quilted/mail armour for nobility or the elite standing troops or professional merenaries. Next to nothing for the rabble.

The unfortunate truth is India spends even less money than scientific R&D on archeology... Very little of the smaller technical details is known for certainty, less than 1/10th of the contemporary European counterparts.
 
Last edited:

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
Yeah ok, that definitely looks like armour. Still, And an unique rarity... Probably a royal guard or something. Only 1 single specimen against hundreds of thousands of naked elephants.

And armour much inferior to standard seleucid plate & scale. Indians did not adopt the tower-like arrow proof howdah from the western neighbours either. View attachment 51807
No one is saying that it is common, just challenging your comment that didnt exist at all. Yes, armor in any shape or form is pretty rare till the Islamic invasions. You can look through this thread and find that out alone.
 

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
2,825
Likes
7,991
Country flag
No one is saying that it is common, just challenging your comment that didnt exist at all. Yes, armor in any shape or form is pretty rare till the Islamic invasions. You can look through this thread and find that out alone.
That's pretty much what I said. 1 example in 2000 year history is as good as not existing at all, is it not?.. Elsewhere & later, the armour level on elephants had been a deciding factor in several crucial battles.

Can you shed any light on Rajput/Gurjar pratihar horse-archery adoption?
I have seen illumination & miniature art of of Kings etc. with a quiver-bow on armoured horse, but next to none historical significance nor mentioned in battle descriptions.
 
Last edited:

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
That's pretty much what I said... 1 example in 2000 year history is as good as not existing at all, is it not?

Can you shed any light on Rajput/Gurjar pratihar horse archer adoption?.. I have seen illumination & miniature art of of Kings etc. with a quiver & bow on armoured horse, but next to none historical significance or mention in battle descriptions.
It's not a point of reference for other periods of Indian history, but it is still relevant reference for a certain period of time and empire.

Clueless about Gurjar pratihar. After Vakataka art in the Deccan, reliefs, paintings, etc. of regular scenes, etc. are rare. Much rarer than classical India. We have details of the weapons Indians used in that era though. Not enough samples to go by.

There is one interesting painting before this period in the deccan with one horsemen with half coat scale armor.
 

Chimaji Appa

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2020
Messages
113
Likes
150
Country flag
All this depictions of Women with weapons makes me think that women played an active role in warrior culture
In ancient times maybe, In medieval times, not as much although there are several exceptions (quite a few actually). The Mauryans were no castiests or sexists.
 

Chimaji Appa

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2020
Messages
113
Likes
150
Country flag
Clueless about Gurjar pratihar
Gurjara-Pratiharas payed the most attention to cavalry while conscripting soldiers last minute for infantry. We know this from foreign accounts which describe the Pratihara cavalry as 150,000 with just 800 elephants. Rajputs/Pratiharas would have viewed horse archery as effeminate.
 

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
Gurjara-Pratiharas payed the most attention to cavalry while conscripting soldiers last minute for infantry. We know this from foreign accounts which describe the Pratihara cavalry as 150,000 with just 800 elephants. Rajputs/Pratiharas would have viewed horse archery as effeminate.
I know this much, but the detailed art you get from classical India doesn't survive for them.
 

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
2,825
Likes
7,991
Country flag
Rajputs/Pratiharas would have viewed horse archery as effeminate.
This bullheadedness kept costing them everything... And they still refused to learn!

I was studying Mughal era wars of successions. Both Jahangir as well as Shah Jahan having Rajput mothers had ensured massive Rajput participation. Those Rajput commander's retardedness was just bonkers. Their pro-DaraSikoh forces snatched defeat from the mouth of victory with their Rambo attitude multiple times. 2 battles. Jaswant Singh at battle of Dharmat, Rao Chhatrasal Hada & Ram Singh Rautela at battle of Samugarh. Same story.

Only exceptions were Man Singh (Amer) & his successor Jai Singh (now Jaipur). Unsurprisingly, both made it up to commander-in-chief.

Glorified as he was, Pratap Singh too adopted hi&run only after getting lessonedthe hard way but by the end his kingdom had became a smoldering ruin & his successor Ajit Singh had to eventually give in.
Raj Singh 1 deserves the real respect (still he got really lucky due to Aurangzeb being a dumbass & plunging theempire in war on all fronts. If he got the singular attention of Mughal war machine, then Shishodias would stand no chance in a war of attrition.)
 
Last edited:

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
2,825
Likes
7,991
Country flag
Open some old folders on my PC. Was a little bit wrong earlier.
4th BCE war-elephants illustrated based on Hydaspes description.
ele2.jpg

But apparently Mauryan adopted the Carthage to Seleucid tower-howdah.
vdffgbf.jpg

Not prevalent in south India though.
IndianEle.jpg

Sultanate version, copied by Hindu rulers. Original artwork depicted Man Singh at Haldighati... Can't find it now.
ele5.jpg

Mughal version. Layers concentrated at front with a ram on forehead for field fortifications & other elephants.
batalla-entre-el-imperio-mogol-y-el-imperio-maratha-siglo-xvii.png

Improved artillery & musketry soon made them redundant. By the 18th century until WW2 more docile female elephants were still being widely used for hauling cannons.
rle6.jpg
 

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
Open some old folders on my PC. Was a little bit wrong earlier.
4th BCE war-elephants illustrated based on Hydaspes description. View attachment 51854
But apparently Mauryan adopted the Carthage to Seleucid tower-howdah.
View attachment 51849

This isnt based on any artistic work. Only howdah you see is of civy use. I wouldnt doubt that Mauryas did but we have no samples. That image is just fictitious-realism.
 

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
Woman_with_Sword_Under_Pipal_Tree_-_Circa_1st_Century_CE_-_Lakshmangarh_Mound_-_ACCN_00-J-63_-...jpg


Woman with Sword - Circa 1st Century AD - Lakshmangarh Mound, Mathura

Oldest surviving example of the Indian disk pommel I've seen.



Standard barer, 2nd Century BC

Long sleeve coat or tunic, pteruges, heavily wrapped turban

shield-sword hybrid.jpg


Shield-Blade Hybrid, Kedareshvara temple, Balligavi, 12th-13th Century AD

gupta4.jpg


Gupta Horsemen with a round shield, 4th-6th Century AD

Undavalli caves, 4th-7th Centuries AD.jpg


Same shield type, Undavalli caves, 4th-7th Centuries AD
 
Last edited:

Shaitan

Zandu Balm all day
Mod
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
4,450
Likes
7,278
Country flag
vijasword.jpg


Katar and Saber sword with a hand guard, Vijayanagara

04.-Hampi_Feb-19-64-1.jpg


Forward Curved Blade, Vijayanagara

katar1.jpg


Dual long hooded Katars and a Saber, Vijayanagara

vija1.jpg


Lancer and soldier with shield and broadsword, Vijayanagara

vija2.jpg


Horsemen with a forward curved blade attached to his horse, Vijayanagara

vija3.jpg


Two soldiers on the right with the same blade type. Another with a sickle blade. Vijayanagara

vija4.jpg


Horsemen with two Khandas, Vijayanagara
 
Last edited:

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top