An emerging India through Pakistani Eyes - threats and counter strategies

[aditya10r]

'Shining, secular India no more': FM Qureshi urges Biden administration to recognise new realities

Biden be like:

 

[shade]

'Shining, secular India no more': FM Qureshi urges Biden administration to recognise new realities

Big talks coming from an Islamic republic sharia-compliant shithole who's post corona growth spurt is predicted to be a mere 1.5%.

And g*ndmasti by Budhen and his clique must be given a befitting reply, Bharat must be assertive if it has to survive and prosper.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Quoted from GlobalVillageSpace
Pakistan wants peace in space but weaponization is inevitable
Akash S Muhammad

At a time when other nuclear states like the United States of America, Russia, China and India are establishing or enhancing the preexisting, designated space forces and assets, it might sound odd for another nuclear state like Pakistan to champion the cause of peaceful space exploration. Pakistan has always maintained that it is against the exploitation of space for military purposes in any shape and form and that it believes space to be a ‘common heritage of mankind. The idea, however, has its merits as ground realities do support the stance that Pakistan has taken but given the geopolitical realities and its own geography that has proved to be more of a bane, eventually, Pakistan might have to follow the course.

Firstly, it is important to assess the merits of Pakistan’s approach to a peaceful space. Being a small country that has faced an existential threat from its much larger eastern neighbor India since independence, Pakistan realizes that the economic cost of national security is simply too high. Since it became a matter of life and death, Pakistan had to go down the path of nuclear weapons after the Indian nuclear tests. The national resolve culminated in establishing deterrence stability in South Asia. However, the country has faced economic and diplomatic repercussions for detonating the nuclear devices in response to Indian tests in 1998.

Read more: Beg, Borrow and Repeat: A Tale of Pakistan’s Obsession with the IMF

Space exploration is an expensive venture
Cost per launch has plummeted in recent decades courtesy of innovation in the space industry, still, the average per launch cost is around $62 million. It costs $1200per pound of the payload that a rocket carries, notwithstanding the humongous costs associated with research and development of the payload worthy of sending into space. And to put things in perspective, Pakistan’s entire budget allocated for its space research agency, SUPARCO, stand at nearly $38 million or 8.7 Billion PKR for FY 2022-23. The cost itself would not have been a problem had the country’s economy been thriving.

But the truth is that the situation is as bad as it could get and it has never been in a state where substantial resources could be allocated for the space program, either civilian or military. Hence, it is logical to think that Pakistan would want to prevent the weaponization of outer space because if the precedent of the nuclear race is an indicator, once it becomes an existential matter, every country would opt for guns instead of bread. It sets the country onto a path where the common people suffer the most as scarce resources are redirected towards defense. Hence Pakistan prioritizes utilizing the limited resources it has to explore space for much-needed socioeconomic development.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, its geography does not complement the intended approach toward space. It borders India and China, the revisionist states on a regional and global scale respectively. It is evident from the technological build-up that both these states are eyeing space control. Revisionist China conducted an Anti-satellite (ASAT) test in 2007 to showcase its ability to target any space-based critical infrastructure if need be. In response, India conducted its own ASAT test in 2019 which many experts foresaw ever since China’s ASAT test.

Pakistan is apparently the last link of the strategic chain in which the United States and China influence each other’s strategic behavior, India follows the lead and eventually, Pakistan has to reluctantly react. Anything India tests considering a threat from China, might not exclusively be used against China only. Furthermore, India has been continuously improving its space-based ISR capabilities. It has long-term strategic implications for Pakistan in terms of its nuclear deterrence.

Read more: The power game and the future of Pakistan

In 2011, National Command Authority (NCA) approved Pakistan Space Vision 2047. In his speech, then SUPARCO chairman highlighted the mission statement as “space as a strategic sector, exploit all aspects of space science, technology and its application for national well-being and national security.” The fast-paced transition in space technologies for military purposes in Southern Asia might eventually lead Pakistan to follow the suit of its neighbors and pursue the requisite course for its national security needs.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

At a time when other nuclear states like the United States of America, Russia, China and India are establishing or enhancing the preexisting, designated space forces and assets, it might sound odd for another nuclear state like Pakistan to champion the cause of peaceful space exploration. Pakistan has always maintained that it is against the exploitation of space for military purposes in any shape and form and that it believes space to be a ‘common heritage of mankind.

Ironically Pakistan didn't promote or joined any peace advocacy group earlier.
Pak wants peace in space not because of any humane cause but because it can't do anything in this regard.

The idea, however, has its merits as ground realities do support the stance that Pakistan has taken but given the geopolitical realities and its own geography that has proved to be more of a bane, eventually, Pakistan might have to follow the course.

USA, Russia, North Korea and South Korea, Japan and Europan states are further in north of Pakistan where gravity is higher so in a more baned geographical position and yet are better. India and China are nearer to equator but have small countries in South. So they have to make curved maneuvers for rocket launch which nullifies their fuel advantage.

So it is Pakistan's technological limitation and not geographical since Pakistani missiles are made up of foreign assembled stages rather than R&D, not even reverse engineering. Beyond boasting on forums, Pak doesn't have anything more than a small array of ballistic and cruise missile systems and lies behind even Iran and North Korea in missile tech, leave alone anything else.

However, the country has faced economic and diplomatic repercussions for detonating the nuclear devices in response to Indian tests in 1998.

No, Pak didn't face repercussions of nukes. India did and it was unaffected since it was facing since past 40 years already.
Rising India and failing Pak is a phenomenon began in 1990s.

Pakistan’s entire budget allocated for its space research agency, SUPARCO, stand at nearly $38 million or 8.7 Billion PKR for FY 2022-23. The cost itself would not have been a problem had the country’s economy been thriving.

Pak doesn't need a thriving economy to allocate just $500 millions for space. In fact, new entrants like Iran, North Korea, South Korea and New Zealand begun with similar to Pak's current budget and ended up making at least once successful small rockets.

Explanation is what I gave earlier. Pak doesn't have ballistic missile tech of its own.

But the truth is that the situation is as bad as it could get and it has never been in a state where substantial resources could be allocated for the space program, either civilian or military.

Pak has always allocated substantially for military and strategic assets even at time of recessions.

Space assets are more strategic in nature and no country is ready to share technology with Pakistan unlike they did with missiles. That's it.

Hence, it is logical to think that Pakistan would want to prevent the weaponization of outer space because if the precedent of the nuclear race is an indicator, once it becomes an existential matter, every country would opt for guns instead of bread

A country without bread and industries can't opt for guns. It will fail miserably.
We don't have an example because no one ever even tried it.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, its geography does not complement the intended approach toward space. It borders India and China, the revisionist states on a regional and global scale respectively.

India is not a revisionist state except it has it's own geopolitical ambitions. A revisionist state is what vehemently opposes current world order like China, Russia, Iran and North Korea.
India is more of an adaptive great power that effectively refuses to join any of blocs. It never befriended or challenged either of imperialist or communist states.

Pakistan is apparently the last link of the strategic chain in which the United States and China influence each other’s strategic behavior, India follows the lead and eventually, Pakistan has to reluctantly react.

Pakistan isn't a link. Pakistan is just another country under turmoil for US and a pro US state for China which they want to take on their side.
India because it's an adaptive power. It doesn't have bad relations anywhere in east except China, in west except Germany and in Islamic world except Pakistan.

Anything India tests considering a threat from China, might not exclusively be used against China only.

There are no China centric weapons India holds that are useful against Pak. India doesn't need ICBM, nuclear powered subs and hypersonic weapons against Pak.

 

[DocK]

Quoted from GlobalVillageSpace
Pakistan wants peace in space but weaponization is inevitable
Akash S Muhammad

At a time when other nuclear states like the United States of America, Russia, China and India are establishing or enhancing the preexisting, designated space forces and assets, it might sound odd for another nuclear state like Pakistan to champion the cause of peaceful space exploration. Pakistan has always maintained that it is against the exploitation of space for military purposes in any shape and form and that it believes space to be a ‘common heritage of mankind. The idea, however, has its merits as ground realities do support the stance that Pakistan has taken but given the geopolitical realities and its own geography that has proved to be more of a bane, eventually, Pakistan might have to follow the course.

Firstly, it is important to assess the merits of Pakistan’s approach to a peaceful space. Being a small country that has faced an existential threat from its much larger eastern neighbor India since independence, Pakistan realizes that the economic cost of national security is simply too high. Since it became a matter of life and death, Pakistan had to go down the path of nuclear weapons after the Indian nuclear tests. The national resolve culminated in establishing deterrence stability in South Asia. However, the country has faced economic and diplomatic repercussions for detonating the nuclear devices in response to Indian tests in 1998.

Read more: Beg, Borrow and Repeat: A Tale of Pakistan’s Obsession with the IMF

Space exploration is an expensive venture
Cost per launch has plummeted in recent decades courtesy of innovation in the space industry, still, the average per launch cost is around $62 million. It costs $1200per pound of the payload that a rocket carries, notwithstanding the humongous costs associated with research and development of the payload worthy of sending into space. And to put things in perspective, Pakistan’s entire budget allocated for its space research agency, SUPARCO, stand at nearly $38 million or 8.7 Billion PKR for FY 2022-23. The cost itself would not have been a problem had the country’s economy been thriving.

But the truth is that the situation is as bad as it could get and it has never been in a state where substantial resources could be allocated for the space program, either civilian or military. Hence, it is logical to think that Pakistan would want to prevent the weaponization of outer space because if the precedent of the nuclear race is an indicator, once it becomes an existential matter, every country would opt for guns instead of bread. It sets the country onto a path where the common people suffer the most as scarce resources are redirected towards defense. Hence Pakistan prioritizes utilizing the limited resources it has to explore space for much-needed socioeconomic development.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, its geography does not complement the intended approach toward space. It borders India and China, the revisionist states on a regional and global scale respectively. It is evident from the technological build-up that both these states are eyeing space control. Revisionist China conducted an Anti-satellite (ASAT) test in 2007 to showcase its ability to target any space-based critical infrastructure if need be. In response, India conducted its own ASAT test in 2019 which many experts foresaw ever since China’s ASAT test.

Pakistan is apparently the last link of the strategic chain in which the United States and China influence each other’s strategic behavior, India follows the lead and eventually, Pakistan has to reluctantly react. Anything India tests considering a threat from China, might not exclusively be used against China only. Furthermore, India has been continuously improving its space-based ISR capabilities. It has long-term strategic implications for Pakistan in terms of its nuclear deterrence.

Read more: The power game and the future of Pakistan

In 2011, National Command Authority (NCA) approved Pakistan Space Vision 2047. In his speech, then SUPARCO chairman highlighted the mission statement as “space as a strategic sector, exploit all aspects of space science, technology and its application for national well-being and national security.” The fast-paced transition in space technologies for military purposes in Southern Asia might eventually lead Pakistan to follow the suit of its neighbors and pursue the requisite course for its national security needs.

Is it just me getting old or allegedly intelligent people being purposely stupid?

If we look back, whenever Pak was in economically dire straits it would talk peace, peaceful resolution and world Kumbaya. It would publish such articles to prove how it was the white hat in the neighborhood and only reliable partner to anyone. There was a chorus of fan girling from Think Tanks to stabilize the only sane voice and prevent world collapse.

The moment it got some economic stability out came the Immus shouting Gazwa e hind and Jit ke lenge Hindustan. Then you hear PIN DROP SILENCE from then same fan girls.

Indians never invested in building their narrative. NRI were happy to be south Asian till the likes of Audrey Trusche put a bloody bulls eye on them. Only Indian point placed is from PAKISTANI DISSIDENTS who will flip with half a chance.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Quoted from GlobalVillageSpace
Pakistan wants peace in space but weaponization is inevitable
Akash S Muhammad

At a time when other nuclear states like the United States of America, Russia, China and India are establishing or enhancing the preexisting, designated space forces and assets, it might sound odd for another nuclear state like Pakistan to champion the cause of peaceful space exploration. Pakistan has always maintained that it is against the exploitation of space for military purposes in any shape and form and that it believes space to be a ‘common heritage of mankind. The idea, however, has its merits as ground realities do support the stance that Pakistan has taken but given the geopolitical realities and its own geography that has proved to be more of a bane, eventually, Pakistan might have to follow the course.

Firstly, it is important to assess the merits of Pakistan’s approach to a peaceful space. Being a small country that has faced an existential threat from its much larger eastern neighbor India since independence, Pakistan realizes that the economic cost of national security is simply too high. Since it became a matter of life and death, Pakistan had to go down the path of nuclear weapons after the Indian nuclear tests. The national resolve culminated in establishing deterrence stability in South Asia. However, the country has faced economic and diplomatic repercussions for detonating the nuclear devices in response to Indian tests in 1998.

Read more: Beg, Borrow and Repeat: A Tale of Pakistan’s Obsession with the IMF

Space exploration is an expensive venture
Cost per launch has plummeted in recent decades courtesy of innovation in the space industry, still, the average per launch cost is around $62 million. It costs $1200per pound of the payload that a rocket carries, notwithstanding the humongous costs associated with research and development of the payload worthy of sending into space. And to put things in perspective, Pakistan’s entire budget allocated for its space research agency, SUPARCO, stand at nearly $38 million or 8.7 Billion PKR for FY 2022-23. The cost itself would not have been a problem had the country’s economy been thriving.

But the truth is that the situation is as bad as it could get and it has never been in a state where substantial resources could be allocated for the space program, either civilian or military. Hence, it is logical to think that Pakistan would want to prevent the weaponization of outer space because if the precedent of the nuclear race is an indicator, once it becomes an existential matter, every country would opt for guns instead of bread. It sets the country onto a path where the common people suffer the most as scarce resources are redirected towards defense. Hence Pakistan prioritizes utilizing the limited resources it has to explore space for much-needed socioeconomic development.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, its geography does not complement the intended approach toward space. It borders India and China, the revisionist states on a regional and global scale respectively. It is evident from the technological build-up that both these states are eyeing space control. Revisionist China conducted an Anti-satellite (ASAT) test in 2007 to showcase its ability to target any space-based critical infrastructure if need be. In response, India conducted its own ASAT test in 2019 which many experts foresaw ever since China’s ASAT test.

Pakistan is apparently the last link of the strategic chain in which the United States and China influence each other’s strategic behavior, India follows the lead and eventually, Pakistan has to reluctantly react. Anything India tests considering a threat from China, might not exclusively be used against China only. Furthermore, India has been continuously improving its space-based ISR capabilities. It has long-term strategic implications for Pakistan in terms of its nuclear deterrence.

Read more: The power game and the future of Pakistan

In 2011, National Command Authority (NCA) approved Pakistan Space Vision 2047. In his speech, then SUPARCO chairman highlighted the mission statement as “space as a strategic sector, exploit all aspects of space science, technology and its application for national well-being and national security.” The fast-paced transition in space technologies for military purposes in Southern Asia might eventually lead Pakistan to follow the suit of its neighbors and pursue the requisite course for its national security needs.

Since Pakistan is a leading Nation, their opinion on every teething issue is very important. They will guide the world regarding how to maintain peace and world order, how to keep space free from weaponization, How to make peace between US and China. Pakistan has Global goals irrespective of the fact that its people do not have food to eat, Talibans are encroaching their territory, It is on the verge of collapse etc. A great ambitious nation without matching capabilities.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The quest for prosperity

Pakistan’s highway to prosperity and stability goes through India. And India’s entry to the developed world depends on its cooperation with Pakistan. Prosperity and peace in South Asia...

www.thenews.com.pk

The quest for prosperity
Pakistan’s highway to prosperity and stability goes through India. And India’s entry to the developed world depends on its cooperation with Pakistan. Prosperity and peace in South Asia can only be achieved through the principle of workability.

Bangladesh today has better economic and political standing, which will ultimately lead to its economic prosperity, because it relies on the workability principle when maintaining its relations with India, without compromising on its interests. It is time for Pakistan to work its way out of its economic and political crisis by applying the same principle.
The principle of workability is a concept where, despite all differences, people and nations find a way to talk to each other. By maintaining contact with each other, they work out a plan to resolve or minimize the areas of conflict. When people and nations have no contact with each other, they lose control over different situations and other people.
In 1947, when Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah responded to a question on India-Pakistan relations by saying that these relations would be most-friendly and cordial, he meant that they would follow the principles of ‘workability’. According to the late Sharifuddin Pirzada, an authority on Jinnah, the Quaid wanted the relationship of Pakistan and India to follow a similar pattern to that of the US and Canada.
Despite his differences with Jinnah and his opposition to the idea of Pakistan, Gandhi also announced a fast until death to get Pakistan its due share in assets. He also wanted a working relationship between Pakistan and India. Also, despite the 1948 war over Kashmir between the two countries, Liaquat Ali Khan and Nehru signed the 1950 pact to protect minorities. Similarly, Ayub Khan and Nehru signed the Indus Waters Treaty in 1960. Ayub Khan also signed the Tashkent Agreement with LB Shastri in the 1960s. In the 1970s, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Indira Gandhi signed the Simla Accord.
In the past, India and Pakistan always found a way to maintain their mutual relations. Unfortunately, this is not true anymore. The unending territorial conflict over Kashmir and the resultant miscalculated policies on both sides have widened differences and distrust between the two neighbours. All prospects of peace and cooperation and its resultant benefits for the people of both countries have become remote. Many opportunities of improving relations on a permanent basis were missed in the past. Now, the only way forward is to accept and adopt the principle of workability. It is a challenge for the leaderships of both sides.
In the 1970s, the US wanted to improve its ties with China. This could happen due to Pakistan’s role in bringing the two countries together. India has been denying Pakistan any chances of using this principle of workability to keep contact with India. The neighbouring country believes that its behaviour has a more severe impact on Pakistan as, according to it, India has figured out alternate ways to keep moving forward. It now finds itself in the league of large economic, political and technological powers. But given India’s energy needs and its long desire to have access to European, Central Asian and Middle Eastern markets, it still needs Pakistan.
Pakistan has to understand that it does not benefit anyone if it denies India access to these markets and energy resources. India will still find a way to these markets, albeit at a much higher cost. But in the process, Pakistan will lose a great opportunity.
Both countries need to review their policies towards each other. Pakistan has paid a huge price during the last 20 years after the unfortunate 9/11 incident. The doctrine of strategic depth apparently failed as the threat from its western front did not subside. India partly succeeded in isolating Pakistan, which consequently made Pakistan more dependent on other countries for maintaining its strategic balance. It is again a big misconception and needs to be revisited in the light of new economic and geo-political realities. Despite big claims of economic turn around and recovery, there appears to be no hope of sustainable growth and development in the near future partly due to domestic turmoil and instability.
Pakistan’s economy is now totally dependent on foreign loans and aids and foreign-funded projects for its survival. The decades-old security and development paradigm put forward by Ayub Khan in his book ‘Friends not Masters’ needs to be revisited. Tragically, the first 30 years were lost and we could not find a working relationship between the two nations.
The bitterness and distrust created by military conflicts in the next four decades did not allow them to work out a permanent solution to their problems. In real terms, despite denials, both countries missed out on the true blessings of peace and prosperity.
India’s foreign policy towards Pakistan is also frozen in time. The BJP is unwilling to change its policy, stance and beliefs towards Muslims and Pakistan, not realizing that the over 700 million Muslims in South Asia are a reality to be recognized. This religious extremism is an existential threat to humanity. The fruit of peace and prosperity resulting from mutual cooperation, trust and trade remain unrealized due to such stagnant approaches to old issues.
Pakistan has all along insisted on the settlement of ‘issues and problems’ before any economic and other cooperation is made. India always puts economic and other cooperation before anything else. Because of this rigidity, from the UN resolutions to the Agra Summit, everything has become a tale of failures. Pakistan and India are permanent neighbours.
South Asia is academically and strategically a recognized area of study because almost one-fifth of the world’s population live here. The region is a matter of great attraction and interest (also due to being a potential nuclear holocaust) for all the great economies. The US, Europe, Russia and China are interested in exporting their goods to this region as it has a big consumer market for their products. If both countries cooperate in the field of trade and business, then instead of being a consumer society they can revive the economic glory of the Mughal era which used to contribute over 38 per cent to the global economy.
Pakistan and India have remained prisoners of geography after Partition. They are caught in an unending territorial conflict that has drained their resources. India has also become a prisoner of history as it is unwilling to permanently adjust to the idea of Partition. India has a huge Muslim population, and Pakistan also has a sizable Hindu population. These religiously marginalized groups are the direct victims of this lack of workability between the two nations. It is time to find a way towards a workable future for the prosperity of the region.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Pakistan’s highway to prosperity and stability goes through India.

Pakistan's highway to peace goes through dismantling its islamic extremist nature of population it purposely built over years but will cause the lose of point of partition of India and making an Islamic state.

Pakistan has no highway to prosperity given it is a proto industrial country with textile in name of industry, not a complex economy, largley uneducated population, a high population growth, a staglated economy, trapped into a low income trap for last two decades.
Nothing positive is due for Pak in next two decades.

And India’s entry to the developed world depends on its cooperation with Pakistan.

No, it doesn't. India's road into status of a fully developed country only goes through inside of India. Journey began sometime in 90s and has seen its own up & downs. It still worked and India is only technologically and industrially capable third world country in world.

Prosperity and peace in South Asia can only be achieved through the principle of workability.

That depends upon country to country. India is 85%+ of South Asian economy and has open markets for anyone's goods (though neighbours aren't able to produce much). So, India has to look outside in world, in Europe, Middleeast nd East Asia for workability.

Bangladesh is a protectionist country, Pakistan has blocked imports of most Indian goods for political reasons and barely produces anything useful to flood Indian markets, Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka are to small to make a difference (and their workability is limited only in being tourist destinations of newly married Indian couples).

Nowhere India can be blamed for lack of integration.

Bangladesh today has better economic and political standing, which will ultimately lead to its economic prosperity, because it relies on the workability principle when maintaining its relations with India, without compromising on its interests. It is time for Pakistan to work its way out of its economic and political crisis by applying the same principle.

No, Bangladesh is heading towards an early middle income trap.
It is certainly more successful than Pakistan, not because of having a better economic policies but because of having economic policies.
Off course because Pakistan never had any kind of economic policy. It was an islamic society looking for shariah, invading India and killing infidels. It took pakistan bloody 1972 from 1947 to put a proper constitution. That speaks volume of functionality of Pak state.

The principle of workability is a concept where, despite all differences, people and nations find a way to talk to each other. By maintaining contact with each other, they work out a plan to resolve or minimize the areas of conflict.

This is normal behaviour from normal countries.
US & China, China & India, China & Japan, India & Turkey, India & Qatar, Turkey & Europe fetch what they need.
Pakistan was never on a mission for well being of its people or society.

When people and nations have no contact with each other, they lose control over different situations and other people.

That again depends upon country to country. For example, not having contacts with Pakistan doesn't make any difference to world.
Pakistan is known as a country in world not for being 6th most populous but because it's at war with India.

In 1947, when Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah responded to a question on India-Pakistan relations by saying that these relations would be most-friendly and cordial, he meant that they would follow the principles of ‘workability’. According to the late Sharifuddin Pirzada, an authority on Jinnah, the Quaid wanted the relationship of Pakistan and India to follow a similar pattern to that of the US and Canada.

Possibly why he partitioned this country at first place LOL. Jinnah was an islamist separatist who was disgustingly vitriolic and violent about non muslims. His invasion of Kashmir and massacre of populace (which at first place led India to enter Kashmir Kashmir other side), suffices why Pak was created.

Despite his differences with Jinnah and his opposition to the idea of Pakistan, Gandhi also announced a fast until death to get Pakistan its due share in assets.

Indeed that move didn't led India or Gandhi anywhere.
India didn't gain anything by giving money to Pakistan just as Pakistanis never benefited any money recieved by Pakistani government LOL. Eastern province of Pak fought a civil war for its share in aid money.

Also, despite the 1948 war over Kashmir between the two countries, Liaquat Ali Khan and Nehru signed the 1950 pact to protect minorities. Similarly, Ayub Khan and Nehru signed the Indus Waters Treaty in 1960. Ayub Khan also signed the Tashkent Agreement with LB Shastri in the 1960s. In the 1970s, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Indira Gandhi signed the Simla Accord.

IWT and 1950 pact was diplomatic obligation.

Tashkent agreement was imposed upon India by superpowers which led to beginning of build up of India's military might. Shimla accord was a goodwill of India which was only misused by Pakistan.

In the past, India and Pakistan always found a way to maintain their mutual relations. Unfortunately, this is not true anymore. The unending territorial conflict over Kashmir and the resultant miscalculated policies on both sides have widened differences and distrust between the two neighbours

Increase in power differential of India and Pakistan, de hyphenation of India & Pak and India's renewed focus on world outside this region has widened the gap between India and Pakistan.

Now, the only way forward is to accept and adopt the principle of workability. It is a challenge for the leaderships of both sides.

No, India has so many other ways forward. India neither needs or is interested settling it with Pakistan but can send issues in a cold bag and ignore Pakistan as it is doing.

India's challenge and dream is securing it's own strong position in a multipolar world as a new major power. Pakistan doesn't feature anywhere in this dream.

In the 1970s, the US wanted to improve its ties with China. This could happen due to Pakistan’s role in bringing the two countries together.

No, Sino Soviet split and Sino Soviet war pushed China towards USA.
Pak never had any role in bringing US and China together just as it did not have any role in fall of USSR.
Pakistanis just love to take credit of others actions and give their country an undue importance.

India has been denying Pakistan any chances of using this principle of workability to keep contact with India.

Peaceful relations with Pakistan always have only resulted in some major terror attacks in Indian civilians in city. So India must simply snub Pakistan.

Problem of Pakistan is it needs workability with other countries, others don't as Pak doesn't offer anything valuable. Neither India other neighbours.

The neighbouring country believes that its behaviour has a more severe impact on Pakistan as, according to it,

If it didn't, Pakistan wouldn't have reached at a relative stage to India where Pak journos have to write such articles LOL.

India has figured out alternate ways to keep moving forward. It now finds itself in the league of large economic, political and technological powers.

And reaching at this stage from 50 years ago in 1970s when India dreamt of being a global power for first time, India never needed Pak for this role.

It only needed a broken and weakened Pak to shift its focus towards real threats.

But given India’s energy needs and its long desire to have access to European, Central Asian and Middle Eastern markets, it still needs Pakistan.

India has access to them.

Pakistan has to understand that it does not benefit anyone if it denies India access to these markets and energy resources. India will still find a way to these markets, albeit at a much higher cost. But in the process, Pakistan will lose a great opportunity.

Not really, sailing through water is cheaper than land transport, except for heavy equipment like multi ton weight reactors/boilers/vessels/press/machinery which are most of India's export good by volumes.

India partly succeeded in isolating Pakistan, which consequently made Pakistan more dependent on other countries for maintaining its strategic balance.

Pakistan was always dependent on assistance from foreign states against India. Isolation of Pakistan turned it weaker hereby.

Pakistan’s economy is now totally dependent on foreign loans and aids and foreign-funded projects for its survival.

It was always an aid and loan ran country. Grants have significantly reduced.

The bitterness and distrust created by military conflicts in the next four decades did not allow them to work out a permanent solution to their problems.

It is Pak who created a threat matrix after 1971 war which ended any chance of India not building up its military in turn and ensure that Pak is kept at bay.

In real terms, despite denials, both countries missed out on the true blessings of peace and prosperity.

Pakistan did, India didn't. India had peace with no military coups, civil wars or revolutions despite terrible diversity.
India started its road to prosperity too in 90s.

The BJP is unwilling to change its policy, stance and beliefs towards Muslims and Pakistan, not realizing that the over 700 million Muslims in South Asia are a reality to be recognized.

BJP indeed recognises Muslims of India runs programs in attempt to win their votes.

There is no reasonable need to recognise and give importance to Pak though. It's nothing more than an empty & crushed cola can now.

India’s foreign policy towards Pakistan is also frozen in time.

India doesn't have a formulated long term policy towards Pakistan. It was earlier reactive and now is just IGNORE.

This religious extremism is an existential threat to humanity. The fruit of peace and prosperity resulting from mutual cooperation, trust and trade remain unrealized due to such stagnant approaches to old issues.

Hindus are not religious extremists, not at least as compared to Muslims. It is reflected in societies, social laws and governance.

Pakistan has all along insisted on the settlement of ‘issues and problems’ before any economic and other cooperation is made. India always puts economic and other cooperation before anything else.

Settling of issues take decades. So it was an excuse from Pak side to keep their religiously radicalised population happy.

Because of this rigidity, from the UN resolutions to the Agra Summit, everything has become a tale of failures. Pakistan and India are permanent neighbours.

Pakistan is not a permanent country. It's break off in 1971, its insurgencies in KPK and Balochistan and its unstable political conflict and military intervention ensures that it's a country which might not exist next morning.

South Asia is academically and strategically a recognized area of study because almost one-fifth of the world’s population live here.

1/6th of world's population is concentrated in India alone. Any South Asian country is barely talked about in world except India. South Asia minus India makes it a more ignored place than Caribbean.

The region is a matter of great attraction and interest (also due to being a potential nuclear holocaust) for all the great economies.

Region is a matter of interest because of presence of India in the region. Word "India" has many times more mentions than word "South Asia" in any book and peer reviewed articles around world.

Nuclear holocaust and MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) between India & Pakistan in a nuclear war is again a feel good thesis synthesized by wishful thinking Pakistani minds. India's overwhelming, conventional, chemical, nuclear, economic, space, anti ballistic missile and SAM capabilities ensure that destruction will only remain one sided.
India's goal is to achieve deterrence against N3 (US, Russia, China) and not Pakistan.

The US, Europe, Russia and China are interested in exporting their goods to this region as it has a big consumer market for their products.

They already export a lot and manufacture within India.

If both countries cooperate in the field of trade and business, then instead of being a consumer society

India is far beyond being a consumer society. It has trade surplus with US and UK, biggest manufacturer and exporter of lot essentials is heading towards a trillion dollar exports.

they can revive the economic glory of the Mughal era which used to contribute over 38 per cent to the global economy.

25% and not 38%.
That was something pre Mughal era.

Pakistan and India have remained prisoners of geography after Partition.

India is only prisoner. Pak was created to cut off India from middle east.

They are caught in an unending territorial conflict that has drained their resources.

It drained Pakistani resources only again.

India has also become a prisoner of history as it is unwilling to permanently adjust to the idea of Partition.

India diplomatically recognising Pakistan refutes that. It's Pakistan which was a prisoner of history imagining itself to be a successor of mughal empire (while in fact was built of raped and converted people) tried to oogle India at every time.

Dreams of ghazwa e hind are replaced by diplomatic peace proposals whenever Pakistan realises that it will be beaten black and blue by India now.

 

[Alamarathan]

Pakistan's highway to peace goes through dismantling its islamic extremist nature of population it purposely built over years but will cause the lose of point of partition of India and making an Islamic state.

Pakistan has no highway to prosperity given it is a proto industrial country with textile in name of industry, not a complex economy, largley uneducated population, a high population growth, a staglated economy, trapped into a low income trap for last two decades.
Nothing positive is due for Pak in next two decades.

No, it doesn't. India's road into status of a fully developed country only goes through inside of India. Journey began sometime in 90s and has seen its own up & downs. It still worked and India is only technologically and industrially capable third world country in world.

That depends upon country to country. India is 85%+ of South Asian economy and has open markets for anyone's goods (though neighbours aren't able to produce much). So, India has to look outside in world, in Europe, Middleeast nd East Asia for workability.

Bangladesh is a protectionist country, Pakistan has blocked imports of most Indian goods for political reasons and barely produces anything useful to flood Indian markets, Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka are to small to make a difference (and their workability is limited only in being tourist destinations of newly married Indian couples).

Nowhere India can be blamed for lack of integration.

No, Bangladesh is heading towards an early middle income trap.
It is certainly more successful than Pakistan, not because of having a better economic policies but because of having economic policies.
Off course because Pakistan never had any kind of economic policy. It was an islamic society looking for shariah, invading India and killing infidels. It took pakistan bloody 1972 from 1947 to put a proper constitution. That speaks volume of functionality of Pak state.

This is normal behaviour from normal countries.
US & China, China & India, China & Japan, India & Turkey, India & Qatar, Turkey & Europe fetch what they need.
Pakistan was never on a mission for well being of its people or society.

That again depends upon country to country. For example, not having contacts with Pakistan doesn't make any difference to world.
Pakistan is known as a country in world not for being 6th most populous but because it's at war with India.

Possibly why he partitioned this country at first place LOL. Jinnah was an islamist separatist who was disgustingly vitriolic and violent about non muslims. His invasion of Kashmir and massacre of populace (which at first place led India to enter Kashmir Kashmir other side), suffices why Pak was created.

Indeed that move didn't led India or Gandhi anywhere.
India didn't gain anything by giving money to Pakistan just as Pakistanis never benefited any money recieved by Pakistani government LOL. Eastern province of Pak fought a civil war for its share in aid money.

IWT and 1950 pact was diplomatic obligation.

Tashkent agreement was imposed upon India by superpowers which led to beginning of build up of India's military might. Shimla accord was a goodwill of India which was only misused by Pakistan.

Increase in power differential of India and Pakistan, de hyphenation of India & Pak and India's renewed focus on world outside this region has widened the gap between India and Pakistan.

No, India has so many other ways forward. India neither needs or is interested settling it with Pakistan but can send issues in a cold bag and ignore Pakistan as it is doing.

India's challenge and dream is securing it's own strong position in a multipolar world as a new major power. Pakistan doesn't feature anywhere in this dream.

No, Sino Soviet split and Sino Soviet war pushed China towards USA.
Pak never had any role in bringing US and China together just as it did not have any role in fall of USSR.
Pakistanis just love to take credit of others actions and give their country an undue importance.

Peaceful relations with Pakistan always have only resulted in some major terror attacks in Indian civilians in city. So India must simply snub Pakistan.

Problem of Pakistan is it needs workability with other countries, others don't as Pak doesn't offer anything valuable. Neither India other neighbours.

If it didn't, Pakistan wouldn't have reached at a relative stage to India where Pak journos have to write such articles LOL.

And reaching at this stage from 50 years ago in 1970s when India dreamt of being a global power for first time, India never needed Pak for this role.

It only needed a broken and weakened Pak to shift its focus towards real threats.

India has access to them.

Not really, sailing through water is cheaper than land transport, except for heavy equipment like multi ton weight reactors/boilers/vessels/press/machinery which are most of India's export good by volumes.

Pakistan was always dependent on assistance from foreign states against India. Isolation of Pakistan turned it weaker hereby.

It was always an aid and loan ran country. Grants have significantly reduced.

It is Pak who created a threat matrix after 1971 war which ended any chance of India not building up its military in turn and ensure that Pak is kept at bay.

Pakistan did, India didn't. India had peace with no military coups, civil wars or revolutions despite terrible diversity.
India started its road to prosperity too in 90s.

BJP indeed recognises Muslims of India runs programs in attempt to win their votes.

There is no reasonable need to recognise and give importance to Pak though. It's nothing more than an empty & crushed cola can now.

India doesn't have a formulated long term policy towards Pakistan. It was earlier reactive and now is just IGNORE.

Hindus are not religious extremists, not at least as compared to Muslims. It is reflected in societies, social laws and governance.

Settling of issues take decades. So it was an excuse from Pak side to keep their religiously radicalised population happy.

Pakistan is not a permanent country. It's break off in 1971, its insurgencies in KPK and Balochistan and its unstable political conflict and military intervention ensures that it's a country which might not exist next morning.

1/6th of world's population is concentrated in India alone. Any South Asian country is barely talked about in world except India. South Asia minus India makes it a more ignored place than Caribbean.

Region is a matter of interest because of presence of India in the region. Word "India" has many times more mentions than word "South Asia" in any book and peer reviewed articles around world.

Nuclear holocaust and MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) between India & Pakistan in a nuclear war is again a feel good thesis synthesized by wishful thinking Pakistani minds. India's overwhelming, conventional, chemical, nuclear, economic, space, anti ballistic missile and SAM capabilities ensure that destruction will only remain one sided.
India's goal is to achieve deterrence against N3 (US, Russia, China) and not Pakistan.

They already export a lot and manufacture within India.

India is far beyond being a consumer society. It has trade surplus with US and UK, biggest manufacturer and exporter of lot essentials is heading towards a trillion dollar exports.

25% and not 38%.
That was something pre Mughal era.

India is only prisoner. Pak was created to cut off India from middle east.

It drained Pakistani resources only again.

India diplomatically recognising Pakistan refutes that. It's Pakistan which was a prisoner of history imagining itself to be a successor of mughal empire (while in fact was built of raped and converted people) tried to oogle India at every time.

Dreams of ghazwa e hind are replaced by diplomatic peace proposals whenever Pakistan realises that it will be beaten black and blue by India now.

Mod saar,thats some 12th dimensional level of devils advocate,

If you have time kindly post such arguments wrt state sponsored terrorism and plausible deniability

 

[ezsasa]

Mod saar,thats some 12th dimensional level of devils advocate,

If you have time kindly post such arguments wrt state sponsored terrorism and plausible deniability

there is one a week/month on Indo-pak relation from paki intellectual class. scan paki news papers, they all have the same core argument.

 

[Alamarathan]

there is one a week/month on Indo-pak relation from paki intellectual class. scan paki news papers, they all have the same core argument.

I think you posted on a serious but it reflected pakistans childish pattern of thinking,which is by description itself funny.

Anyway would like to see a effective countering mechanism.

 

[Alamarathan]

Do pakistanis think or blame india for removing imran khan from pm and to his subsequent assasination attempt?

Why im asking this is,because isi never bungled up their assasination/murder attemp,from bhuttos to zia ul haq,so it got me wondering...

 

[ezsasa]

I think you posted on a serious but it reflected pakistans childish pattern of thinking,which is by description itself funny.

Anyway would like to see a effective countering mechanism.

it's not childish by any means, they talk like this when they feel they are on backfoot. they will take an aggressive tone when they think they have parity or an advantage in their hands.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

there is one a week/month on Indo-pak relation from paki intellectual class. scan paki news papers, they all have the same core argument.

Probably planted stories by ISPR to project a false sense of bravado.

 

[Alamarathan]

it's not childish by any means, they talk like this when they feel they are on backfoot. they will take an aggressive tone when they think they have parity or an advantage in their hands.

imagine their posturing minus their nukes,thats the key here,training and sending inside neoghbours through cover fire yet claiming to be innocent is pretty much schoolyard bully behavior.

Game of Wack a mole...thats how i would describe it,but interestingly their citizens doesnt seems to mind though,while sending a brainwashed kid into a hostile territories for pennies whereas their masters living a posh life on the cost of the country.

 

[Alamarathan]

imagine their posturing minus their nukes,thats the key here,training and sending inside neoghbours through cover fire yet claiming to be innocent is pretty much schoolyard bully behavior.

Game of Wack a mole...thats how i would describe it,but interestingly their citizens doesnt seems to mind though,while sending a brainwashed kid into a hostile territories for pennies whereas their masters living a posh life on the cost of the country.

We(raw) need to do a comprehensive study on avg pakistani psyche so that we can reverse engineer a solution to "disturb" them from inside out.

 

[ezsasa]

imagine their posturing minus their nukes,thats the key here,training and sending inside neoghbours through cover fire yet claiming to be innocent is pretty much schoolyard bully behavior.

Game of Wack a mole...thats how i would describe it,but interestingly their citizens doesnt seems to mind though,while sending a brainwashed kid into a hostile territories for pennies whereas their masters living a posh life on the cost of the country.

it's worse, there is strong element of denial in paki discourse.

in case you haven't visited this thread.

Pakistanism(s) in Pakistani discourse

last week was thinking that i had coined a new term called "pakistanism", idea was to list out all the tropes in their discourse that paki establishment and awam keep reusing decade after decade. but apparently "pakistanism" is already in usage for more than a decade. no harm in adding to the...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[TopWatcher]

Pakistan's highway to peace goes through dismantling its islamic extremist nature of population it purposely built over years but will cause the lose of point of partition of India and making an Islamic state.

Pakistan has no highway to prosperity given it is a proto industrial country with textile in name of industry, not a complex economy, largley uneducated population, a high population growth, a staglated economy, trapped into a low income trap for last two decades.
Nothing positive is due for Pak in next two decades.

No, it doesn't. India's road into status of a fully developed country only goes through inside of India. Journey began sometime in 90s and has seen its own up & downs. It still worked and India is only technologically and industrially capable third world country in world.

That depends upon country to country. India is 85%+ of South Asian economy and has open markets for anyone's goods (though neighbours aren't able to produce much). So, India has to look outside in world, in Europe, Middleeast nd East Asia for workability.

Bangladesh is a protectionist country, Pakistan has blocked imports of most Indian goods for political reasons and barely produces anything useful to flood Indian markets, Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka are to small to make a difference (and their workability is limited only in being tourist destinations of newly married Indian couples).

Nowhere India can be blamed for lack of integration.

No, Bangladesh is heading towards an early middle income trap.
It is certainly more successful than Pakistan, not because of having a better economic policies but because of having economic policies.
Off course because Pakistan never had any kind of economic policy. It was an islamic society looking for shariah, invading India and killing infidels. It took pakistan bloody 1972 from 1947 to put a proper constitution. That speaks volume of functionality of Pak state.

This is normal behaviour from normal countries.
US & China, China & India, China & Japan, India & Turkey, India & Qatar, Turkey & Europe fetch what they need.
Pakistan was never on a mission for well being of its people or society.

That again depends upon country to country. For example, not having contacts with Pakistan doesn't make any difference to world.
Pakistan is known as a country in world not for being 6th most populous but because it's at war with India.

Possibly why he partitioned this country at first place LOL. Jinnah was an islamist separatist who was disgustingly vitriolic and violent about non muslims. His invasion of Kashmir and massacre of populace (which at first place led India to enter Kashmir Kashmir other side), suffices why Pak was created.

Indeed that move didn't led India or Gandhi anywhere.
India didn't gain anything by giving money to Pakistan just as Pakistanis never benefited any money recieved by Pakistani government LOL. Eastern province of Pak fought a civil war for its share in aid money.

IWT and 1950 pact was diplomatic obligation.

Tashkent agreement was imposed upon India by superpowers which led to beginning of build up of India's military might. Shimla accord was a goodwill of India which was only misused by Pakistan.

Increase in power differential of India and Pakistan, de hyphenation of India & Pak and India's renewed focus on world outside this region has widened the gap between India and Pakistan.

No, India has so many other ways forward. India neither needs or is interested settling it with Pakistan but can send issues in a cold bag and ignore Pakistan as it is doing.

India's challenge and dream is securing it's own strong position in a multipolar world as a new major power. Pakistan doesn't feature anywhere in this dream.

No, Sino Soviet split and Sino Soviet war pushed China towards USA.
Pak never had any role in bringing US and China together just as it did not have any role in fall of USSR.
Pakistanis just love to take credit of others actions and give their country an undue importance.

Peaceful relations with Pakistan always have only resulted in some major terror attacks in Indian civilians in city. So India must simply snub Pakistan.

Problem of Pakistan is it needs workability with other countries, others don't as Pak doesn't offer anything valuable. Neither India other neighbours.

If it didn't, Pakistan wouldn't have reached at a relative stage to India where Pak journos have to write such articles LOL.

And reaching at this stage from 50 years ago in 1970s when India dreamt of being a global power for first time, India never needed Pak for this role.

It only needed a broken and weakened Pak to shift its focus towards real threats.

India has access to them.

Not really, sailing through water is cheaper than land transport, except for heavy equipment like multi ton weight reactors/boilers/vessels/press/machinery which are most of India's export good by volumes.

Pakistan was always dependent on assistance from foreign states against India. Isolation of Pakistan turned it weaker hereby.

It was always an aid and loan ran country. Grants have significantly reduced.

It is Pak who created a threat matrix after 1971 war which ended any chance of India not building up its military in turn and ensure that Pak is kept at bay.

Pakistan did, India didn't. India had peace with no military coups, civil wars or revolutions despite terrible diversity.
India started its road to prosperity too in 90s.

BJP indeed recognises Muslims of India runs programs in attempt to win their votes.

There is no reasonable need to recognise and give importance to Pak though. It's nothing more than an empty & crushed cola can now.

India doesn't have a formulated long term policy towards Pakistan. It was earlier reactive and now is just IGNORE.

Hindus are not religious extremists, not at least as compared to Muslims. It is reflected in societies, social laws and governance.

Settling of issues take decades. So it was an excuse from Pak side to keep their religiously radicalised population happy.

Pakistan is not a permanent country. It's break off in 1971, its insurgencies in KPK and Balochistan and its unstable political conflict and military intervention ensures that it's a country which might not exist next morning.

1/6th of world's population is concentrated in India alone. Any South Asian country is barely talked about in world except India. South Asia minus India makes it a more ignored place than Caribbean.

Region is a matter of interest because of presence of India in the region. Word "India" has many times more mentions than word "South Asia" in any book and peer reviewed articles around world.

Nuclear holocaust and MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) between India & Pakistan in a nuclear war is again a feel good thesis synthesized by wishful thinking Pakistani minds. India's overwhelming, conventional, chemical, nuclear, economic, space, anti ballistic missile and SAM capabilities ensure that destruction will only remain one sided.
India's goal is to achieve deterrence against N3 (US, Russia, China) and not Pakistan.

They already export a lot and manufacture within India.

India is far beyond being a consumer society. It has trade surplus with US and UK, biggest manufacturer and exporter of lot essentials is heading towards a trillion dollar exports.

25% and not 38%.
That was something pre Mughal era.

India is only prisoner. Pak was created to cut off India from middle east.

It drained Pakistani resources only again.

India diplomatically recognising Pakistan refutes that. It's Pakistan which was a prisoner of history imagining itself to be a successor of mughal empire (while in fact was built of raped and converted people) tried to oogle India at every time.

Dreams of ghazwa e hind are replaced by diplomatic peace proposals whenever Pakistan realises that it will be beaten black and blue by India now.

Problem with Pak that they understand, where are they now.

So now they thinking let attach Pak to India this way we(Pak) also recognize in the world.

They cant digest where India is and where are they(Pak).

 

[ezsasa]

Problem with Pak that they understand, where are they now.

So now they thinking let attach Pak to India this way we(Pak) also recognize in the world.

They cant digest where India is and where are they(Pak).

will have to scan old op-eds, but I think this messaging was earlier used during Nawaz sharifs time.

 

[Bharatiya]

India should shed the "kindness" seeing the enemy in trouble. Instead, if the enemy is in trouble, we should use it as opportunity and completely crush them.

This is one of the best opportunities we have. We are attacking Pakistan as a country but not as a society. This needs to change.

Use the islamist youth of Pakistan and drive them toward anti-state activities. This should be very easy since Pakistanis don't really have a notion of statehood and view themselves as a stronghold of Islam. This lack of patriotism should be fully exploited.

We cannot remain complacent looking at the troubles our enemy is in. We should take active steps to crush him to the best we can.

I hope our Saajish is actually doing something.