AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

SavageKing456

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
3,078
Likes
18,149
Country flag
‘Agreed; then separate the DRDO into parcels and sell parcels with lock, stock and barrel to the private interests and let them run the show. Whatever could not be sold easily & immediately can be retained in DRDO.
It will worsen the scenario we need to just do what we did in space sector with isro helping private players and they are themselves involved in R&D
Meanwhile DRDO is openly saying we are ready to help and even transferred technology for ex(godrej engine deal unlike some MNCs) but private companies are not taking lead themselves
That is till now in india they(private firms)don't see aeronautical industry/defence industry profitable unlike space sector(commercial launches for ex)
 

karn

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
3,596
Likes
15,356
Country flag
It will worsen the scenario we need to just do what we did in space sector with isro helping private players and they are themselves involved in R&D
Meanwhile DRDO is openly saying we are ready to help and even transferred technology for ex(godrej engine deal unlike some MNCs) but private companies are not taking lead themselves
That is till now in india they(private firms)don't see aeronautical industry/defence industry profitable unlike space sector(commercial launches for ex)
Godrej got the deal because they have experience manufacturing the vikas and CE 200 engines for ISRO.
 

Arjun Mk1A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2022
Messages
2,768
Likes
15,766
Country flag
It will worsen the scenario we need to just do what we did in space sector with isro helping private players and they are themselves involved in R&D
Meanwhile DRDO is openly saying we are ready to help and even transferred technology for ex(godrej engine deal unlike some MNCs) but private companies are not taking lead themselves
That is till now in india they(private firms)don't see aeronautical industry/defence industry profitable unlike space sector(commercial launches for ex)

R&D requires money and our defence procurement is basically dog shit. Eg. Bharat Forge have the capability of producing one barrel per day but in reality there is no clear deal signed for ATAGS or any other systems they have. Thus there is a idle production or low production scenario. Basically recovering the investment itself is a big task. Similar situation with L&T shipyards where they have idle production because warship building is still with PSU while L&T getting some breadcrumbs here and there.

There is no clarity from armed forces for any private company to invest in R&D because at end of day they are doing emergency procurement of foreign systems or simply paper moving in MOD office.

Once these things sort out we can see increased private participation.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,320
Likes
7,893
x-posting to Mk2, AMCA & Kaveri threads, the article almost reads like a blog- is inaccurate in some places but also has some interesting nuggets on Kaveri progress


Indigenous combat jets and Kaveri turbofan engine: All About IAF's new aerospace plan
As the deal to procure 114 foreign fighter jets (dubbed as MMRCA 2.0) progresses, simultaneous efforts are also being made towards acquisition of indigenous fighter aircrafts for filling up the gaps.

Amartya Sinha
Amartya Sinha

New Delhi,UPDATED: May 16, 2023 23:13 IST
IAF

India’s future Twin-engine Medium Class Omni-Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA) fighter is also in the works. (File photo: AFP)
By Amartya Sinha: It is a widely endorsed fact that aerospace is the domain of the future and the one who controls it, will also control the planet. As of 2023, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has a combined strength of 31 squadrons. A total of three MiG-21 Bison squadrons will be retired by 2025.
With the addition of three Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons (?) and two LCA-Tejas Mark-1 squadrons this year, the IAF will somehow be able to make up its strength for the retiring jets and maintain up to 33 combat jet squadrons.
ALSO READ | Rajnath Singh inaugurates country's first Indian Air Force Heritage Centre in Chandigarh
An additional squadron of Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft will also retire by 2027, thus bringing down the combined strength to 32 squadrons. So, there will be a total shortfall of 10 combat squadrons by 2030, if additional fighter jets are not ordered immediately.
Meanwhile, as the deal to procure 114 foreign fighter jets (dubbed as MMRCA 2.0) progresses, simultaneous efforts are also being made towards the acquisition of indigenous fighter aircraft for filling up the gaps. Technology-intensive air power requires faster replacement of assets due to quicker obsolescence.
While IAF has a Plan-B to fight with what it has, if forced into conflict, but numbers are clearly not adequate to fully execute an air campaign in a two-front war scenario. It is imperative of time that the IAF quickly rebuilds the squadron strength and acquires modern fighters that are as good or better than the adversaries.
https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-news/story/venkaiah-naidu-teases-aap-leader-raghav-chadha-about-pehla-pyaar-after-engagement-with-parineeti-chopra-viral-video-2379783-2023-05-16?utm_source=articlepage&utm_medium=mustread&utm_campaign=recommendation
Developing indigenous aircraft is critical for India to become a global power. China has already moved way ahead. The Light Combat Aircraft- Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) are the main two indigenous combat aircraft projects and it is important to continuously monitor their progress.
CONCEPT OF 4th & 5th GEN JETS
The LCA-Tejas was originally envisaged as a fourth-generation combat jet and the AMCA is meant to be a fifth-generation fighter. Fourth-generation fighters are mostly multi-role. These jets use ‘energy-manoeuvrability’ concept for performing ‘fast transients’- quick changes in speed, altitude, and direction- as opposed to just high speed; lightweight aircraft with higher thrust-to-weight ratio, and use digital Fly-By-Wire (FBW) flight controls which allow relaxed static stability flight and in turn agility.
These planes have electronically managed powerplants. Pulse-Doppler fire-control-radars give look-down/shoot-down capability. Head-up displays (HUD), hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls, and multi-function displays (MFD) allow better situational awareness and quicker reactions. Composite materials help reduce aircraft weight. Improved maintenance design and procedures reduce the aircraft turnaround time between missions and generate more sorties. The F-16, F-18, MiG-29, SU-30 MKI and Mirage-2000 are all in this category.

A sub-generation called the 4.5th generation fighters evolved in the last two decades, which saw advanced digital avionics, newer aerospace materials, modest signature reduction, and highly integrated systems and weapons. These fighters operate in a network-centric environment. Key technologies introduced include a multi-function active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars; longer range BVR AAMs; GPS-guided weapons, solid-state phased-array radars, helmet-mounted display sights (HMDS), and improved secure, jamming-resistant data links.
A degree of supercruise ability (supersonic without afterburner) was introduced. Stealth characteristics focused on front-aspect radar cross section (RCS) reduction through limited shaping techniques. Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were in this category. Many 4th generation aircraft were also upgraded with new technologies. Su-30MKI and Su-35 featured thrust vectoring engine nozzles to enhance manoeuvring.
The fifth generation was ushered in by the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor in late 2005. These aircraft are designed from the start to operate in a network-centric combat environment and to feature extremely low, all-aspect, multi-spectral signatures employing advanced materials and shaping techniques. AESA radars are with high-bandwidth low-probability of intercept. IRST and other sensors are fused in for situational awareness and to constantly track all targets of interest around the aircraft at a 360-degree bubble.
Advanced avionics and glass cockpit, and improved secure, jamming-resistant data-links are other features. Avionics suites rely on extensive use of very high-speed integrated circuit (VHSIC) technology and high-speed data buses. Fifth-generation fighters target “first-look, first-shot, first-kill capability”. In addition to high resistance to ECM, they can function as a ‘mini-AWACS’. Integrated electronic warfare systems, integrated communications, navigation, and identification (CNI), centralised “vehicle health monitoring”, fibre-optic data transmission, and stealth are important features. Manoeuvring performance is enhanced by thrust-vectoring, which also helps reduce take-off and landing distances.
Super-cruise is inbuilt. To maintain low radar cross signature (RSC), the primary weapons are carried in internal weapon bays. The current fifth-generation fighter projects include Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, Russia‘s Sukhoi PAK FA (SU-57), China’s Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31, and India’s AMCA. Japan is also exploring the technical feasibility to produce fifth-generation fighters.
ALSO READ | IAF's 24-hour rescue op brings back 192 Indians from war-torn Sudan
LCA TEJAS MARK-2

IAF has committed to inducting 200 Tejas Mark-2 aircraft, taking the total requirement of Tejas to over 300 over the next 15 years. Tejas Mark-2 was originally planned to retain basic aircraft shape and incorporate the larger and more powerful 98 Kilonewton thrust GE F-414 engine, which was more likely to meet the originally agreed specifications of Tejas.
This would have meant a significant change to the air inlets and also the aircraft dimensions and weight would have to increase. At Aero India-2019, ADA unveiled a new model of the Tejas Mark-2, and called it a Medium Weight Fighter (MWF). This aircraft was expected to fit into IAF’s requirement for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). This enhanced version of Tejas, the Tejas Mark-2 MWF would be 14.6-metre-long with a wingspan of 8.5 metres (compared with 13 metres and 8.2 metres for the Tejas and 14.36 metres and 9.13 metres for Mirage 2000 respectively).

The aircraft will have a compound delta-wing with close-coupled canards. This would reduce drag in all angles of attack it was announced. The longer fuselage will allow for more fuel behind the cockpit. The Tejas Mark-2 would carry much more internal and external fuel. The maximum weight of the plane would be around 17.5 tonnes (compared to Mark-1’s 13.5 tonnes). Its external stores carrying capacity will also increase from 5.3 to 6.5 tonnes. It will be equipped with a higher thrust General Electric GE-F414-INS6 turbofan engine that features a Full Authority Digital Electronics Control (FADEC) system.
The Tejas Mark-2 will also feature an indigenous integrated life support system-onboard oxygen generation system (ILSS-OBOGS) weighing 14.5 kg, a built-in integrated Electro-optic electronic-warfare suite among other improvements to avionics. It will have an infrared search and track (IRST) system and a missile approach warning system (MAWS) and a modern AESA radar.
An increase in payload capacity to 6.5 tonnes and an increased number of weapons stations from seven to 11, will allow the MWF to carry more weapons. It is said to be designed for a swing role, with BVR and close-combat capability, and precision strike.
Beyond the Tejas programme, the AMCA- India’s fifth-generation fighter, can only move forward once the Tejas Mark-2 design is frozen.
The realistic first-flight timeline would be around 2028. The aircraft may be inducted into the IAF around 2034-35. In any case, HAL will require at least 7-8 years to deliver the 123 Mark-1 and Mark-1A jets.
ALSO READ | IAF pilots use night vision goggles to rescue 121 people from destroyed airstrip in Sudan
TWIN-ENGINE DECK-BASED FIGHTER (TEDBF)

The Indian Navy has issued a Request for Information (RFI) with reference to the possible acquisition of 57 naval multirole fighter jets. However, despite rejecting the Tejas initially for being overweight, the Navy restarted testing with the NP-2 (Naval Prototype-2) in August 2018, with the first mid-air refuelling being held in September 2018.
The experience gained in operating the naval prototype will help in proving input to the development of a twin-engine deck-based fighter (TEDBF) aircraft. The TEDBF will be powered by two General Electric F-414 turbofans and will carry heavier payloads with greater range.
OMNI-ROLE COMBAT AIRCRAFT (ORCA)
As per reliable sources, India’s future twin-engine Medium Class Omni-Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA) fighter is also in the works. Some of the planned features for this platform are the canards, diverterless supersonic inlet, conformal wing root tanks/containers, a larger number of hard points, and an option for folding wingtips.
It will weigh around 23 tonnes. An ambitious timeline of maiden flight in 2026 and production start in 2030 are being spoken of.
ADVANCED MEDIUM COMBAT AIRCRAFT (AMCA)
The AMCA is a fifth-generation fighter aircraft being designed by ADA and will be manufactured by HAL. It will be a twin-engine, all-weather multirole fighter. It will combine super-cruise, stealth, advanced AESA radar, super manoeuvrability and advanced avionics. The jet is meant to replace the Jaguar and Mirage 2000 aircraft and complement the Sukhoi-30 MKI, Dassault Rafale and LCA Tejas in the IAF and MiG 29K in the Indian Navy.
On April 4, 2018, the then Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman told parliament that the feasibility study of the programme had already been completed and the programme has already been given the nod by the IAF to initiate the AMCA technology demonstration phase before launching the full-scale engineering development phase.
Earlier, in October 2008, IAF had asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report for a next-generation medium combat aircraft. In April 2010, IAF issued the ASQR for the AMCA, which placed the aircraft in the 25-tonne class. The first flight test of the prototype aircraft was originally scheduled to take place in 2017.
DRDO proposed to power the aircraft with two GTX Kaveri engines. In October 2010, the government released Rs 100 crore to prepare feasibility studies. Meanwhile, in November 2010, ADA sought Rs 9,000 crore to fund the development which would include two technology demonstrators and seven prototypes. ADA unveiled a 1:8 scale model at Aero India-2013. The AMCA design will have shoulder-mounted diamond-shaped trapezoidal wings and an all-moving canard-vertical V-tail with a large fuselage-mounted tail-wing. It will be equipped with a quadruple digital fly-by-optics control system using fibre optic cables.
The reduced radar cross-section (RCS) would be through the airframe and engine inlet shaping and the use of radar-absorbent materials (RAM). AMCA will have an internal weapons bay, but a non-stealthy version with external pylons is also planned.

Low-speed and supersonic wind tunnel testing and Radar Cross Section (RCS) testing were reportedly completed by 2014, and the project definition phase by February 2014. The Engineering Technology & Manufacturing Development (ETMD) phase was started in January 2014 after HAL Tejas attained IOC, and it was announced that the AMCA will have its first flight by 2018.
At Aero India-2015, ADA confirmed that work on major technological issues, thrust vectoring, super-cruising engine, AESA radar and stealth technology was going on at full swing. Russia was to support for the development of Three-Dimensional Thrust Vectoring (TDTVC), AESA Radar and stealth technology. Saab, Boeing and Lockheed Martin also offered to help with key technologies.

AMCA will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Eventually, it is planned to be powered by two GTRE, 90-kilonewton thrust, K-9 or K-10 engines which are successors to the troubled Kaveri engine. France has offered full access to the Snecma M-88 engine and other key technologies, and the United States offered full collaboration in the engine development with access to the GE F-414 and F-135.
AMCA PROGRAMME CLEARANCE
Two technology demonstrators and four prototypes were scheduled to go under various types of testing, and analysis in 2019. The ground reality is that they are far from it. As of 2022, the defence ministry was seeking approval from Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) to go ahead with the prototype development phase. AMCA is intended to be a test case for fundamental Indian research in the unfamiliar field of cutting-edge aviation. DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), had earlier announced the targeted first flight of AMCA by 2020, and production by 2025, but has now revised the maiden flight to 2026.
AMCA NAVAL VERSION

The Indian Navy first got ‘involved’ in the AMCA project in March 2013 when it formally asked the DRDO/ADA if they were planning a naval version of the proposed jet. They were looking at it in relation to the upcoming indigenous aircraft carrier- IAC-2. The navy has already sought 57 aircraft of MMRCA-2.0 class. Naval AMCA (NAMCA) timeshares will match IAC-2 they feel. The Navy’s requirements were sent to DRDO on September 7, 2015. They have suggested a separate team for NAMCA development.
FOREIGN COLLABORATIONS
Unsure of indigenous capability, India has informed the foreign vendors of the MMRCA-2.0 programme that the nation’s quest for fighters would need commitments towards the AMCA. In anticipation, most vendors have set up joint ventures with Indian defence majors and set up research and manufacturing facilities. IAF is fully supporting the project but hopes that the timelines stated are realistic because otherwise it upsets its procurement cycles.
In any case, IAF’s 114 Make-in-India fighters will partly act as a cushion for delays. Meanwhile, DRDO has been discussing with Indian defence companies including Tata, Mahindra Defence, Larsen & Toubro and many smaller specialised firms for workshare for AMCA. Part of the private Indian industry is already doing major fabrication work for defence majors like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Airbus, BAE Systems and others.
Technologically, the AMCA is a project that runs concurrent to India’s Ghatak stealth unmanned combat aircraft. Many laboratories are researching common technologies for both platforms, including shape, stealth, network-centricity, sensors and materials.
BOOSTING INDIGENOUS TURBOFAN TECH
The turbofan engine is considered the most vital component of a jet aircraft without which it simply can’t take to the skies. A turbofan-based powerplant provides the requisite thrust to aerial combat vehicles for atmospheric glide and supermanoeuvrability. DRDO’s GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) started the project to develop an indigenous turbofan engine christened ‘Kaveri’ in 1986.
As a part of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)- ‘Tejas’ project, the turbofan engine was to be developed from scratch. Full-scale development of the powerplant was authorised in April 1989 as a 93-month programme with a budget of $55.3 million. The original plan called for 17 prototype test engines to be built. The first test engine consisted of only the core module christened ‘Kabini, while the third prototype was the first one to be fitted with variable inlet guide vanes (IGV) on the first three compressor stages.
The Kabini core engine first ran in March 1995. Test runs of the first complete prototype of Kaveri began in 1996 and all five ground-test prototypes were in testing by 1998, while the initial flight tests were planned for the end of 1999 with its maiden flight test onboard a LCA prototype to follow the next year.
However, progress in the Kaveri development programme was slowed by both political and technical difficulties. The United States imposed economic and technological sanctions on India following the Pokhran-2 series of nuclear weapon test explosions in 1998, thus hampering the transfer of critical aero-engine technologies and components from the US to India.
The Indian scientific establishment had to develop everything through in-house research in the following years and the first prototypes were found to be throwing up blades during ground testing. In mid-2004 the engine failed its high-altitude tests in Russia ending the hopes for its introduction with the first production batch of Tejas fighter jets. As the dillydallying continued through the first half of the 2000s decade, the engine had undergone 1700 hours of tests and had been sent twice for high altitude tests to Russia by February 2008.
In July 2007, GTRE divided the Kaveri programme into two separate programmes- the K9+ programme and the K-10 programme. K9+ is to prove the concept of complete design and gain hands-on experience in aircraft engine integration and flight trials to cover a defined truncated flight envelope prior to the launch of the production version of the K-10 standard engine.
The K-10 programme is a joint venture (JV) partnership with a foreign engine manufacturer. K-10 is supposed to be the final production standard Kaveri engine and shall have less weight and more reheat thrust along with certain other changes to meet the original design intent. By May 3, 2010, about 1880 hours of engine tests had been completed on various prototypes.

A total of eight Kaveri engines and four core engines had been manufactured, assembled and tested. High-altitude testing on the core engine had also been completed successfully. One of the Kaveri prototypes (K-9) was successfully flight tested at Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow, on November 4, 2010. The test was conducted at the Flying Test Bed at Gromov, with the engine running right from take-off to landing, flying for a period of over one hour up to an altitude of 6 km.
The engine helped the IL-76 testbed aircraft fly at speeds of around Mach 0.6 in its maiden flight. The engine control, performance and health during the flight were found to be excellent. With this test, Kaveri had completed a major milestone in the development programme.
But the CAG report released in 2011 came as a shock for many as it highlighted the cost overruns of the programme with only two out of the six milestones having been met. CAG stated that the engine was overweight and there was no significant progress towards developing the compressors, turbines and engine-control systems.
The Kaveri project was finally on the verge of closure as DRDO planned to abandon the programme in 2014 due to prolonged delay. But an offer by France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (previously known as Snecma) suddenly spurred hopes in all stakeholders. France offered to spend 1 billion Euros as a part of Dassault Rafale’s offsets deal and proposed a joint-venture plan with DRDO to quickly revive the Kaveri engine programme and make the first upgraded powerplants airworthy.
The good news finally came on November 20, 2016, when CP Ramanarayanan, Director General for Aeronautics Cluster of DRDO confirmed that the collaborative deal with the French company- Safran Aircraft Engines, had been sealed for the upgradation of Kaveri and making it airworthy for testing by 2018.

As of 2022, the plan is to upgrade the first batch of prototypes with significant transfers of M-88 engine technology from France to India so that Kaveri is made airworthy and integrated onboard Tejas PV-1 (Prototype Vehicle-1) aircraft by in the ongoing decade.
French experts who have assessed the engine, have stated that 25-30 per cent more work is needed to make the engine flightworthy. It is understood that there are many arms import lobbies in the government which don’t want the indigenous turbofan engine programme to materialise as it will hamper the import of F-404 and F-414 engines from the United States.
These arms import czars are so powerful that they can make the people believe that night is day and vice versa. Critical technical know-how like the ‘single crystal blade’ technology for manufacturing of aero-engines was never given to India. DRDO had to develop almost everything from scratch. The onus now lies upon the NDA-3 government to operationalise Kaveri at the earliest with immediate execution of the maiden historic flight onboard LCA-Tejas aircraft, possibly during the next edition of the Defence Expo in 2024.
THE FUTURE

Tejas and AMCA are flagship programmes of the Indian defence manufacturing sector. Aviation technologies are much more complex and expensive than building warships and battle tanks. The fact that India struggled a lot to get FOC aircraft production for the base Tejas model indicates that there is a need for foreign help. The variables and anxieties will continue to hit the AMCA. Joint ventures or technology transfers are essential for the engine, AESA and EW systems.

Moreover, external help will also be required in handling complex aerodynamic configurations and stealth of the AMCA. Considering the slow progress in the Tejas project, it is going to be an uphill task. The indigenous fifth-generation fighter programme would require more concerted energies and professional administrative attention.
During technological holdups, there is a need to accept the harsh reality and raise the hands rather than carrying on ‘hit and trial’. Foreign collaboration for the development of cutting-edge technologies and platforms will prevent unprecedented delays and cost overruns. The time to act is now, without any further delay.
 

AnantS

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
5,593
Likes
14,927
Country flag
I dont know what new in above piece.. we have been hearing same stuff for decade with only hopeful dates changed. I am not sure without FTB how even we imagine of being able to develop any cutting edge engine.. is beyond me.
 

MirageBlue

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2020
Messages
553
Likes
3,264
Country flag
I would wait for a much more reliable source on ORCA being in the works. So far the IAF hasn't even spoken of it once. It has to be based on the TEDBF, that's for sure, so if the IAF does agree to an ORCA program, then the baseline will be from the TEDBF with changes made to suit the IAF's land based operations.

Basically lighter landing gear, fuselage and no need for wing folding mechanism that will restrict the TEDBF to 8G max loading.
 

FactsPlease

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
194
Likes
382
Country flag
Below is supposed to belong to F-35 thread. Nevertheless, it's the dilemma (in Korea case) and the "mistake" (US Air Force secretary) I want to highlight here, regarding AMCA development (or more justification of my preference NOT to buy F-35 :shock:). All info sources had been verified (by myself, thru browsing)

Key take-away: The Korean Times quoted the source saying the repair bill for the damaged F-35A fighter jet is estimated to be over 100 billion won ($76 million) ― close to its original price tag of $100 million. :scared2:

Key take-away: “We’re NOT going to repeat ... ... a serious mistake that was made in the F-35 program ... ... of not obtaining rights to all the fighter’s sustainment data from contractor Lockheed Martin" ... ... an acquisition philosophy known as Total System Performance was in favor. Under this approach... ... a contractor that won a program would own it for its entire life cycle"... ... “What that basically does is create a perpetual monopoly... ... acquisition malpractice [on the F-35], and we’re still struggling with that ... ... So we’re not going to do that with NGAD.”
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,423
Likes
7,011
Country flag
MBDA offers Meteor-NG BVRAAM for India's AMCA 5th generation stealth fighter !!! MBDA has just approved the integration of Meteor BVRAAM for the last batch of 30 odd Tejas Mk-1A jets because of the installation of Indian AESA radar Uttam.....earlier MBDA had objections on the usage of Israeli ELTA ELM-2052 AESA radar with which they refused to integrate Meteor for Tejas Mk1A, but they have agreed...to supply Meteor for last batch of Tejas Mk1A, whole Tejas Mk2 MWF fleet and also the under development Meteor-NG for AMCA 5th generation stealth fighter !!! That's a fantastic development for the Indian Air Force....although we are on our way to develop our own Meteor equivalent Astra Mk2 and Astra Mk3 SFDR BVRAAMs with ranges from 200-350 kms !!!!


First time I see a news about Meteor NG. Maybe with the AESA seeker of MICA NG...
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,320
Likes
7,893
theigmp.org/general-electric-offers-upgraded-core-on-f-414-engine/

General Electric Offers Upgraded Core On F-414 Engine To Generate 130kn Thrust For Indian AMCA Stealth Jet
1685118961047.png

Representative Image
US firm General Electric has presented a proposal to India offering to develop a new engine using its 116 kilonewtons F-414 enhanced engine as a baseline to power India’s AMCA Mark 2 program that will meet the crucial objectives of achieving supercruise capabilities and reduced thermal signature.
General Electric has extended an offer to India to utilize their Ceramic Matrix composite engine core parts which require 20% less cooling air and can also withstand higher temperatures thus allowing the core to generate thrust exceeding 130 kilonewtons with the upgraded F-414 core.

The baseline 98 kilonewton thrust F-414 NS6 engine has already been selected to power India’s Tejas Mark 2, TEDBF, and AMCA Mark 1, and India now has the option to select a new engine with upgraded Ceramic Matrix composite enhanced core that has the potential to surpass 130 kilonewtons of thrust.
Trending

But it is also important to note that the Indian Air Force has earlier rejected the same offer from General Electric to produce an upgraded 110kn+ thrust F-414 engine variant for AMCA Mark 2, now it is to be seen whether the IAF accepts this new offer or not.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,320
Likes
7,893
Does this mean end of the road for RR's AMCA engine offer??


Hawk aircraft deal: CBI files case against Rolls Royce and others on graft charge
Team India Sentinels Tuesday 30th of May 2023 12:17 PM

File pic (PC: Reuters)

New Delhi: The probe agency Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has registered a corruption case against British aerospace and defence company Rolls Royce PLC, top executives of its Indian unit and arms dealers for alleged "kickbacks" in the procurement of Hawk 115 Advanced Jet Trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force and Navy.

The case was filed against Tim Jones, Director Rolls Royce India, alleged arms dealers Sudhir Choudhrie and his son Bhanu Choudhrie, Rolls Royce Plc and British Aerospace Systems under IPC section 120-B (criminal conspiracy), 420 (cheating) and provisions of Prevention of Corruption Act after completing a six-year-old preliminary enquiry registered in December 2016.

Email sent to Rolls Royce seeking comments remained unanswered.

A British court order in 2017 also mentioned the alleged involvement of intermediaries and payment of commission by the company for swinging the deal, they said.

It is alleged that during 2003-12, these accused entered into a conspiracy with unidentified public servants who "abused their official positions" in lieu of "huge bribes, commissions and kickbacks" paid by Rolls Royce to approve the aircraft purchase.

The company paid intermediaries, even though the agreements, integrity pacts and associated documents of the deal "prohibited such payments", the CBI FIR has alleged.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had approved the procurement of 66 Hawk 115 AJTs on September 3, 2003, under which 24 BAE Hawk 115Y AJTs in flyaway condition with all the accoutrement along with material for 42 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL were cleared for GBP 734.21 million, equivalent to Rs 5653.44 crore (calculated at Rs 77 per GBP), was sanctioned.

Procurement of 42 aircraft, to be licence manufactured by HAL at an additional cost of GBP 308.247 million, equivalent to Rs 1944 crore, and a payment of GBP 7.5 million to Rolls Royce as a Manufacturer's licence fee was also cleared.

Subsequent contracts signed with Rolls Royce/BAE had an integrity clause that barred the engagement of any middlemen or payment of a commission.

In case of violation, the company could have been debarred for any Government of India work for the next five years besides penalty.


The contracts also included a penal clause for using undue influence where the supplier had to give an undertaking that no commission or fee was paid to any person in relation to the contract.

HAL delivered 42 aircraft to the Indian Air Force between August 2008 and May 2012.

In January 2008, HAL requested the Defence Ministry approval for the licence manufacturing of 57 additional Hawk Aircraft, of which 40 were for the Air Force and 17 for the Navy, for Rs 9502 crore.

A contract was signed between HAL and BAE on August 30, 2010, which also contained a clause prohibiting the use of undue influence and payment of a commission.

HAL delivered the aircraft between March 2013 and July 2016.

In 2012, media reports alleging corruption in the Rolls Royce operations surfaced, resulting in an investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, London.

The company prepared a Statement of Fact that disclosed its corrupt payments concerning transactions with countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and India.

A deferred prosecution agreement was reached between the company and SFO.

The Statement of Fact disclosed that during a survey conducted by the Income Tax department on January 9, 2006, the department seized vital documents pertaining to the list of intermediaries who were paid for securing the deal.

The Statement of Fact was cited in a judgment by Crown Court Southwark, UK which showed that a sum of GBP 1.85 million was paid to an intermediary to retrieve the list of intermediaries seized by the IT department during a survey of Rolls Royce India during 2006 to prevent the list falling into the hands of Defence Ministry which could have resulted in the termination of the contract and a CBI probe.

The tax department had recorded the statement of Jones, the then Director of Rolls Royce India.

It is alleged that Rolls Royce Plc was involved in bribing tax officials and other officials to prevent an investigation by Indian authorities into its tax affairs and use of intermediaries in the deal, the FIR alleged.

"The judgment revealed the concealment of involvement of intermediaries in the defence business in India between 2005 and 2009 by Rolls Royce despite restrictions imposed by the Government of India through an integrity pact on payment of commissions/fees to intermediaries.

"There are reasons to believe that significant amounts paid to intermediaries were routed to public servants in India," the FIR alleged.

The Crown Court Judgment specifically mentions payment of GBP one million by Rolls Royce to an intermediary for increasing the license fee from GBP 4 million to 7.5 million, it alleged.

The CBI also alleged that GBP 100 million were paid by Russian Arms companies into a Swiss account in the name of Portsmouth, a company associated with Sudhir Choudhrie for defence deals with Russia for the purchase of MIG aircraft.

"Out of this amount, the companies in the name of Choudhrie's family, namely Belinea Services Ltd, Cottage Consultants Ltd and Carter Consultants Inc. received GBP 39.2 million, GBP 32.8 million and GBP 23 million, respectively, between October 2007 and October 2008," the FIR alleged.

It said Sudhir Choudhrie and Bhanu Choudhrie, allegedly unregistered Indian agents and middlemen who worked for Rolls Royce and BAES in securing the award of contract for the supply of Hawk aircraft in question, used "undue influence on Indian public servants to induce the Government of India to approve the deal," it alleged.

(With input from agencies)
 

MirageBlue

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2020
Messages
553
Likes
3,264
Country flag
Does this mean end of the road for RR's AMCA engine offer??


Hawk aircraft deal: CBI files case against Rolls Royce and others on graft charge
Team India Sentinels Tuesday 30th of May 2023 12:17 PM

File pic (PC: Reuters)

New Delhi: The probe agency Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has registered a corruption case against British aerospace and defence company Rolls Royce PLC, top executives of its Indian unit and arms dealers for alleged "kickbacks" in the procurement of Hawk 115 Advanced Jet Trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force and Navy.

The case was filed against Tim Jones, Director Rolls Royce India, alleged arms dealers Sudhir Choudhrie and his son Bhanu Choudhrie, Rolls Royce Plc and British Aerospace Systems under IPC section 120-B (criminal conspiracy), 420 (cheating) and provisions of Prevention of Corruption Act after completing a six-year-old preliminary enquiry registered in December 2016.

Email sent to Rolls Royce seeking comments remained unanswered.

A British court order in 2017 also mentioned the alleged involvement of intermediaries and payment of commission by the company for swinging the deal, they said.

It is alleged that during 2003-12, these accused entered into a conspiracy with unidentified public servants who "abused their official positions" in lieu of "huge bribes, commissions and kickbacks" paid by Rolls Royce to approve the aircraft purchase.

The company paid intermediaries, even though the agreements, integrity pacts and associated documents of the deal "prohibited such payments", the CBI FIR has alleged.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had approved the procurement of 66 Hawk 115 AJTs on September 3, 2003, under which 24 BAE Hawk 115Y AJTs in flyaway condition with all the accoutrement along with material for 42 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL were cleared for GBP 734.21 million, equivalent to Rs 5653.44 crore (calculated at Rs 77 per GBP), was sanctioned.

Procurement of 42 aircraft, to be licence manufactured by HAL at an additional cost of GBP 308.247 million, equivalent to Rs 1944 crore, and a payment of GBP 7.5 million to Rolls Royce as a Manufacturer's licence fee was also cleared.

Subsequent contracts signed with Rolls Royce/BAE had an integrity clause that barred the engagement of any middlemen or payment of a commission.

In case of violation, the company could have been debarred for any Government of India work for the next five years besides penalty.


The contracts also included a penal clause for using undue influence where the supplier had to give an undertaking that no commission or fee was paid to any person in relation to the contract.

HAL delivered 42 aircraft to the Indian Air Force between August 2008 and May 2012.

In January 2008, HAL requested the Defence Ministry approval for the licence manufacturing of 57 additional Hawk Aircraft, of which 40 were for the Air Force and 17 for the Navy, for Rs 9502 crore.

A contract was signed between HAL and BAE on August 30, 2010, which also contained a clause prohibiting the use of undue influence and payment of a commission.

HAL delivered the aircraft between March 2013 and July 2016.

In 2012, media reports alleging corruption in the Rolls Royce operations surfaced, resulting in an investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, London.

The company prepared a Statement of Fact that disclosed its corrupt payments concerning transactions with countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and India.

A deferred prosecution agreement was reached between the company and SFO.

The Statement of Fact disclosed that during a survey conducted by the Income Tax department on January 9, 2006, the department seized vital documents pertaining to the list of intermediaries who were paid for securing the deal.

The Statement of Fact was cited in a judgment by Crown Court Southwark, UK which showed that a sum of GBP 1.85 million was paid to an intermediary to retrieve the list of intermediaries seized by the IT department during a survey of Rolls Royce India during 2006 to prevent the list falling into the hands of Defence Ministry which could have resulted in the termination of the contract and a CBI probe.

The tax department had recorded the statement of Jones, the then Director of Rolls Royce India.

It is alleged that Rolls Royce Plc was involved in bribing tax officials and other officials to prevent an investigation by Indian authorities into its tax affairs and use of intermediaries in the deal, the FIR alleged.

"The judgment revealed the concealment of involvement of intermediaries in the defence business in India between 2005 and 2009 by Rolls Royce despite restrictions imposed by the Government of India through an integrity pact on payment of commissions/fees to intermediaries.

"There are reasons to believe that significant amounts paid to intermediaries were routed to public servants in India," the FIR alleged.

The Crown Court Judgment specifically mentions payment of GBP one million by Rolls Royce to an intermediary for increasing the license fee from GBP 4 million to 7.5 million, it alleged.

The CBI also alleged that GBP 100 million were paid by Russian Arms companies into a Swiss account in the name of Portsmouth, a company associated with Sudhir Choudhrie for defence deals with Russia for the purchase of MIG aircraft.

"Out of this amount, the companies in the name of Choudhrie's family, namely Belinea Services Ltd, Cottage Consultants Ltd and Carter Consultants Inc. received GBP 39.2 million, GBP 32.8 million and GBP 23 million, respectively, between October 2007 and October 2008," the FIR alleged.

It said Sudhir Choudhrie and Bhanu Choudhrie, allegedly unregistered Indian agents and middlemen who worked for Rolls Royce and BAES in securing the award of contract for the supply of Hawk aircraft in question, used "undue influence on Indian public servants to induce the Government of India to approve the deal," it alleged.

(With input from agencies)
I would think so. If these corruption allegations were proven then it will likely lead to some sort of black listing or debarring of RR from participating in contracts.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,320
Likes
7,893
I would think so. If these corruption allegations were proven then it will likely lead to some sort of black listing or debarring of RR from participating in contracts.
Why don't they adopt a more pragmatic approach & just impose 10x the fine? Like US did to VW in dieselgate. This black listing business is akin to digging one's own grave. Less competition hurts us in the long run, delays our programs.
 

Azaad

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
6,215
Likes
22,777
Country flag
Why don't they adopt a more pragmatic approach & just impose 10x the fine? Like US did to VW in dieselgate. This black listing business is akin to digging one's own grave. Less competition hurts us in the long run, delays our programs.
I think some clarity is needed as to whether filing of a mere chargesheet by security agencies lead to a default ban or is it dependent on a guilty judgement by a court of law. Pls note that the former used to rule earlier but whether this was done to save the government of the day from public backlash or it was as per prescribed norms is not clear..
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,423
Likes
7,011
Country flag

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top