AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Trololo]

F-35 probably... F-22 definitely not (platform wise only, there's 2 decade tech gap).

Mark1 doesn't have side-bays, TVC or hidden engine nozzles like F-22. Edge alignment is also imperfect, owing to attempt of drag reduction.... Mark2 will be technically 6th gen, so again doesn't compare fairly.



I heard they tried doing that while testing all sorts of ballistic missile countermeasures for realistic simulation. We have ever don't that actually (assuming it's true, what I heard).

" F-22 definitely not (platform wise only, there's 2 decade tech gap)." ----> Can you please elaborate on this?

 

[Karthi]

F-35 probably... F-22 definitely not (platform wise only, there's 2 decade tech gap).

Mark1 doesn't have side-bays, TVC or hidden engine nozzles like F-22. Edge alignment is also imperfect, owing to attempt of drag reduction.... Mark2 will be technically 6th gen, so again doesn't compare fairly.



I heard they tried doing that while testing all sorts of ballistic missile countermeasures for realistic simulation. We have ever don't that actually (assuming it's true, what I heard).

F35 has better overall stealth than F22 . F22 ia more stealthy in X band while F35 has better stealth in a wide range of band widths . The only area F22 better than F35 is its aerodynamics . Don't know about the upgrades Of F22 , even with upgrade still F22 can't match F35 .

 

[Bleh]

even with upgrade still F22 can't match F35 .

Even F-35 test pilots don't say that...

" F-22 definitely not (platform wise only, there's 2 decade tech gap)." ----> Can you please elaborate on this?

Well it's tech is older. Eg: Didn't even have helmet-mounted display system when it came.... But the platform is completely designed with both stealth & maneuverability perfectly optimised. Like said above, it's materials & RAM are older, allowing F-35 to cover more bandwidths, but its quadrilateral nozzles etc. were groundbreaking tech giving it lowest ever RCS.
And even after 20 years it's still the only jet in the world that can match Su-30/35 platforms in maneuverability!

 

[Gerlat]

Neither MWF, nor AMCA is likely to have TVC. I asked around & noone knows.

It is know that MWF, AMCA Mark1 & Teddy will all is F414... And that probably has an option for having TVC nozzles (offered on F-18 in original MMRCA). But fact remains that ADA info-placards never showed TVC as a feature in any of them. Unless informed otherwise, its safer to assume it'll all be regular F414.

IAF asked for indigenous engine for AMCA. Indigenous engine comes with TVC. [Jv with Russia- TVC]. Now question is AMCA - 4.5 gen [f414] or 5.5 gen [Indigenous engine with TVC]. ADA developing both 4.5plus gen AMCA and 5.5 gen AMCA.

 

[SARTHAK]

Even F-35 test pilots don't say that...



Well it's tech is older. Eg: Didn't even have helmet-mounted display system when it came.... But the platform is completely designed with both stealth & maneuverability perfectly optimised. Like said above, it's materials & RAM are older, allowing F-35 to cover more bandwidths, but its quadrilateral nozzles etc. were groundbreaking tech giving it lowest ever RCS.
And even after 20 years it's still the only jet in the world that can match Su-30/35 platforms in maneuverability!

f22 is made strictly for a2a role only with stealth an maneuverability optmizied even then f22 cannot mach f35 in ew ,"quadrilateral nozzles" - ground breaking by pentagon standards else truth is they were not so beneficial (actaully a partial failure),check defence decode for this

 

[SARTHAK]

IAF asked for indigenous engine for AMCA. Indigenous engine comes with TVC. [Jv with Russia- TVC]. Now question is AMCA - 4.5 gen [f414] or 5.5 gen [Indigenous engine with TVC]. ADA developing both 4.5plus gen AMCA and 5.5 gen AMCA.

tvc is not neccessary in combat ,good aerodynamics can compensate for it,tvc incearses cost likely decraeses stealth

 

[Gerlat]

tvc is not neccessary in combat ,good aerodynamics can compensate for it,tvc incearses cost likely decraeses stealth

You may be right, but f22 and https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...ca-is-set-to-fly-on-russian-technology_705808

 

[Bleh]

tvc is not neccessary in combat ,good aerodynamics can compensate for it,tvc incearses cost likely decraeses stealth

Oh no no. Not in post-stall. amount of aerodynamics alow you to achieve 90° AoA & recover to level flight at post stall.

IAF asked for indigenous engine for AMCA. Indigenous engine comes with TVC. [Jv with Russia- TVC]. Now question is AMCA - 4.5 gen [f414] or 5.5 gen [Indigenous engine with TVC]. ADA developing both 4.5plus gen AMCA and 5.5 gen AMCA.

Literally everyone here already knows that^, we're talking about upcoming Mark1 for now.

But what you've shared is all outdated info... That ^above "news" is old bullshit trying to imply AMCA is dependent on FGFA project when we were on the verge of pulling out (that article is on motherfucking Russia Beyond!!!..) Russia is not part of anything anymore. AMCA Mark2 110kN-class engine with TVC is joint venture involving RR only.

And Mark1 is definitely 5th gen tech wise (compared to Teddy or KF-X & TFX, which are proper 4.5th gen) but the platform is without supercruise & supermaneuverability... That's why I used F-22 example! To explain the platform design & tech standard should be looked at differently. Not to start an offtopic F22-vs-F35 discussion

 

[SavageKing456]

F-35 probably... F-22 definitely not (platform wise only, there's 2 decade tech gap).

Mark1 doesn't have side-bays, TVC or hidden engine nozzles like F-22. Edge alignment is also imperfect, owing to attempt of drag reduction.... Mark2 will be technically 6th gen, so again doesn't compare fairly.



I heard they tried doing that while testing all sorts of ballistic missile countermeasures for realistic simulation. We have ever don't that actually (assuming it's true, what I heard).

But f22s horizontal shaped 2D TVC doesn't really reduce the RCS and is hella expensive to maintain
Honestly we should go for Fluidic thrust vectoring which also reduces IR signature developed by IITK for Ghatak UCAV

 

[SavageKing456]

I don’t know why, but now I feel AMCA’s design is not Ugly but beautiful, idk why my stupid brain called it ugly, it looks super modern and advanced rugged warfighting machine unlike KF-X which looks like Toy.

This is why I told you earlier that KFX has the most basic design of a FGFA we could've brought a KFX like fighter jet prototypes in the year 2k17 itself if we had chosen the design nearly same as that of KFX.

 

[Bleh]

But f22s horizontal shaped 2D TVC doesn't really reduce the RCS

Odd. Where did you learnt that one!?..
Thumb rule: Round is better for aerodynamics, quadrilateral is better for stealth... Both for air-intakes & exhaust nozzles & fuselage shaping. Serrated nozzles are a tradeoff, angled intakes are a tradeoff.

F-22's engine nozzles are hidden within body, it's a logical fact to be stealthier. The penalty that instills is actually on thrust, almost 15% lesser. So it need high power engines & more fuel.

Honestly we should go for Fluidic thrust vectoring which also reduces IR signature developed by IITK for Ghatak UCAV

Yes definitely, but that is often impossible in the engine nozzles. You'd need redesigned fuselage to embed the engine like Ghatak or CATS Warrior (not 100% sure about this tho).

This is why I told you earlier that KFX has the most basic design of a FGFA we could've brought a KFX like fighter jet prototypes in the year 2k17 itself if we had chosen the design nearly same as that of KFX.

That was exactly the plan!.. When we were still supposed to have FGFA. AMCA prototype was scheduled in 2020.
But then we got rid of the Ruskys & AMCA had to be split into Mark1 & 2, to be enhanced to fit a larger responsibility.

 

[Ajax01]

Odd. Where did you learnt that one!?..
Thumb rule: Round is better for aerodynamics, quadrilateral is better for stealth... Both for air-intakes & exhaust nozzles & fuselage shaping. Serrated nozzles are a tradeoff, angled intakes are a tradeoff.

F-22's engine nozzles are hidden within body, it's a logical fact to be stealthier. The penalty that instills is actually on thrust, almost 15% lesser. So it need high power engines & more fuel.



Yes definitely, but that is often impossible in the engine nozzles. You'd need redesigned fuselage to embed the engine like Ghatak or CATS Warrior (not 100% sure about this tho).


That was exactly the plan!.. When we were still supposed to have FGFA. AMCA prototype was scheduled in 2020.
But then we got rid of the Ruskys & AMCA had to be split into Mark1 & 2, to be enhanced to fit a larger responsibility.

What kind of stealth? Radar or IR? As far as I know elliptical serrated nozzles are better for mass entrainment of the nozzle downstream hence give less IR signature in 3-5 micrometer band that are used in many IIR seekers.

 

[Bleh]

What kind of stealth? Radar or IR? As far as I know elliptical serrated nozzles are better for mass entrainment of the nozzle downstream hence give less IR signature in 3-5 micrometer band that are used in many IIR seekers.

Stealth is mostly meant as radar stealth. It offers concealment of the engine's round nozzles from radar, but in serrated ones the shaping gives some degree of low-observability against IR too (nothing significant tho, IRST can track it fine).

Mass entrainment around the boundary layer is not directly related to that, it'll actually happens more if the aerodynamics is bad!
Here how; in case of inferior streamlining, low pressure is created around the tail end, drawing air from the sides. That cooler air from sides mixup & form a screening layer.
But such low pressure is not good for aerodynamics & generates unnecessary voetex at the wrong place, creating drag.
But that's again another tradeoff.

 

[SARTHAK]

You may be right, but f22 and https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...ca-is-set-to-fly-on-russian-technology_705808

by not neccessary i mean it is least necessary,sensor suite and stealth are the most important aspects ,good aerodyanmics can do the rest work, tvc is for those who have money to ample money to spend on engine maintenance

 

[SARTHAK]

btw ,how come amca mk1 is a 4.5 gen it is 5th gen fighter and yes DO NOT believe everything that americans say about what is good or what is bad

 

[Ajax01]

Stealth is mostly meant as radar stealth. It offers concealment of the engine's round nozzles from radar, but in serrated ones the shaping gives some degree of low-observability against IR too (nothing significant tho, IRST can track it fine).

Mass entrainment around the boundary layer is not directly related to that, it'll actually happens more if the aerodynamics is bad!
Here how; in case of inferior streamlining, low pressure is created around the tail end, drawing air from the sides. That cooler air from sides mixup & form a screening layer.
But such low pressure is not good for aerodynamics & generates unnecessary voetex at the wrong place, creating drag.
But that's again another tradeoff.

View attachment 80233

Development in infrared detector technologies has increased the threats to the survivability of fighter aircrafts. This mandates the development of infrared suppression system for enhancing their survivability. A large amount of heat is generated during combustion in the combustor and it is mainly radiated outward from the exhaust nozzle. The fighter aircrafts propelled by turbojets consist of very high-temperature turbine section and exhaust nozzle which could provide 90% of detectable infrared signatures. Thus, there is need to employ suitable techniques to mask and suppress IR radiation, particularly emanating from the turbine and nozzle hot regions. The emitted radiance from the exhaust jet has a major role in target detection by heat-seeking missiles due to its visibility from a much wider angle. Therefore, IR studies on exhaust plume are important for aircraft survivability enhancement. The recent studies show that the serpentine nozzles can reduce the infrared signature tremendously as compared to any conventional nozzles. These nozzles are specially designed for stealth as it camouflages the engine hot spots such as turbine blades and combustion chamber and thereby reducing the infrared exhaust plume produced by it. The objective of the present study is to estimate the infrared signature of a nozzle jet, particularly emanating from an elliptic serpentine nozzle and compared with the conventional baseline circular nozzle. The nozzle with elliptic exit also ensures that the mass entrainment is high as compared to any conventional nozzle with circular or other 2D exits like rectangular. The mass entrainment of the exhaust plume helps to avoid the particular bandwidth about 3-5 µm in which most of the IR detectors are produced and used. The numerical investigation is carried out to assess the efficiency of these nozzles. The present study is carried out at NPR (Nozzle Pressure Ratio) 3.0.
IIT K study on this type of nozzle.
Besides I dont think the designers are concerned much with radar signature at rear end. It means the missile need to be on tail chase mode which makes it very difficult for the missle to engage the target range and Pk drops significantly. Especially if rear stealth leads to rapid kinematic performance drop.

 

[Bleh]

@Gerlat did you not read the link you yourself shared!?.. What I said is in that context only.

btw ,how come amca mk1 is a 4.5 gen it is 5th gen fighter and yes DO NOT believe everything that americans say about what is good or what is bad

You're debunking claims noone made!

Tech-wise the AMCA Mark1 is best described as bordering on 5th gen (compared to Teddy or KF-X & TFX, which are proper 4.5th+ gen)... as the platform is without supercruise & supermaneuverability.
That's why I used F-22 as an example! To explain the platform design & tech standard should be looked at differently... Not to praise quadrilateral enhaust shape.

And don't use DD as you only source of info. He's great, but has a tendency to omit & overlook other factors to make his point on the video topic... In engineering or R&D it can rarely be said so simply as "iT wAs A fAilUre!"
Hiding round nozzles has obvious advantages in enhancing low-observability & US rigorously tested multiple versions to finally settle on that... For the same reason that shaping is being chosen for Tempest;

 

[SARTHAK]

@Gerlat did you not read the link you yourself shared!?.. What I said is in that context only.



You're debunking claims noone made!

Tech-wise the AMCA Mark1 is best described as bordering on 5th gen (compared to Teddy or KF-X & TFX, which are proper 4.5th+ gen)... as the platform is without supercruise & supermaneuverability.
That's why I used F-22 as an example! To explain the platform design & tech standard should be looked at differently... Not to praise quadrilateral enhaust shape.

And don't use DD as you only source of info. He's great, but has a tendency to omit & overlook other factors to make his point on the video topic... In engineering or R&D it can rarely be said so simply as "iT wAs A fAilUre!"

all i meant to say tvc is not a "5th gen feature" ,yes supercruise is definitely 5th gen ,amca's stealth wud be some where between j20 and f35,which i am ok with ,tvc needs huge maintenence and hence not a big of it even in 5th gen,regarding radar stealth tvc is not friendly(i am not sure,i read it somewhere)

 

[Ghost hale]

Statement that AMCA MK1 is 4.5 gen because of super cruise and super maneuverability missing is incorrect. 5th gen is characteristically stealth with top of the line avionics to further improve the same. Those are very well incorporated in design.

 

[SARTHAK]

Statement that AMCA MK1 is 4.5 gen because of super cruise and super maneuverability missing is incorrect. 5th gen is characteristically stealth with top of the line avionics to further improve the same. Those are very well incorporated in design.

by that standards f35 is also 4.5g(with no super manuverability and no supercruise)