AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[MonaLazy]

View attachment 163914

it looks like there is a layer on top of a block. Is it casted on top of the forged central piece?

Don't quite understand what you mean but if you locate the area labelled 'Loaded Bulkhead' below I have highlighted within a blue box what I think they forged.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

View attachment 162644

HAL doesn't have any authority or power to offer the same.
HAL Tejas is a misnomer. HAL is nothing more than a contract manufacturer/assembler. HAL doesn't won the IP.
GoI (MoD) is the owner of project and only they can decide.
As for AMCA, HAL is not even guaranteed to be the primary manufacturer/assembler. Their is a high chance AMCA will be manufactured by private entity.

 

[MonaLazy]

As for AMCA, HAL is not even guaranteed to be the primary manufacturer/assembler. Their is a high chance AMCA will be manufactured by private entity.

Then why not pick that unknown future private player of the SPV now and have that organisation build the prototypes and avoid teething issues later? This makes sense only if HAL Nashik will be forging all bulkheads for all AMCAs ever produced.

Bulkheads require large investments in huge capacity presses that usually make economic sense only for govts to own and amortize over different varieties of air crafts.

 

[abingdonboy]

Construction of Titanium bulkhead for AMCA 5th gen jets begins at HAL Nashik.

Nasik? Wasn’t the first metal cutting done in BLR?

Guess this confirms that HAL is lining Nasik up to be the AMCA production centre , when are we going to hear about the SPV formation? After first flight will be too late

 

[abingdonboy]

Then why not pick that unknown future private player of the SPV now and have that organisation build the prototypes and avoid teething issues later? This makes sense only if HAL Nashik will be forging all bulkheads for all AMCAs ever produced.

Bulkheads require large investments in huge capacity presses that usually make economic sense only for govts to own and amortize over different varieties of air crafts.

It’s not HAL’s job to pick the SPV partners. All the pending decisions are with the GoI who won’t even give CCS clearance and disperse funds (same with IMRH)

and it actually makes more sense for HAL to get on with prototype production than to get the SPV up and running first with some untested private player who will create teething issues. Let that happen for series or limited series production and let HAL do the work on the experimental airframes which they alone have experience in in India (ALH, LUH, LCH, LCA, HJT, HTT-40 etc etc)

 

[radion]

Don't quite understand what you mean but if you locate the area labelled 'Loaded Bulkhead' below I have highlighted within a blue box what I think they forged.

View attachment 163952

So it's only 1/6 of the total part huh

 

[radion]

HAL doesn't have any authority or power to offer the same.
HAL Tejas is a misnomer. HAL is nothing more than a contract manufacturer/assembler. HAL doesn't won the IP.
GoI (MoD) is the owner of project and only they can decide.
As for AMCA, HAL is not even guaranteed to be the primary manufacturer/assembler. Their is a high chance AMCA will be manufactured by private entity.

IF hal doesn't own any IP,mk1a is whose work then?ADA?
Your bets on which pvt company will manufacture it?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Bulkheads require large investments in huge capacity presses that usually make economic sense only for govts to own and amortize over different varieties of air crafts.

No new investment in that was required if the objective was to get a private entity to do the job, especially seeing as we are forging it in pieces. The contract for forging could have simply been given to that Belgaum SEZ firm, Aequs aerospace, that has a 10,000 ton press:-

Spoiler: Aequs 10,000 ton press forge

The private SPV partner would most likely only be expected to act as a final integrator, like HAL is with Tejas. So makes sense that the various parts would be sub-contracted to others. Maybe they are looking to make HAL do the bulk of the work in setting up the line, and then transfering the line to private partner/SPV once AMCA gets IOC and starts production? Which means that SPV will come into picture in LSP stage, while TD and PV stages will be handled by HAL.

 

[WolfPack86]

AMCA Metal Cutting,Hypersonic

 

[MonaLazy]

No new investment in that was required if the objective was to get a private entity to do the job, especially seeing as we are forging it in pieces.

Ok that point is moot & apologies for not being clear enough. In that post, I meant if we forge the whole bulkhead together in a single Ti piece and go for strength, longevity & lightweight (& high cost but flying is not cheap). US perfected that tech in 2005, we are 17 years on & still not moving to close the gap.

Why did GoI not go for a giant forge press, it is right up the alley for any banya minded govt- initial pain for multi gain for maybe a 100 years! Every future desi civil and military aircraft bulkhead could be formed in a single piece over there- massive RoI given where the country is poised right now- once the 125kN engine materializes there is going to be an explosion of engines in all directions like high bypass, low bypass, turboprop etc for all manners of local flying crafts.

The private SPV partner would most likely only be expected to act as a final integrator, like HAL is with Tejas. So makes sense that the various parts would be sub-contracted to others. Maybe they are looking to make HAL do the bulk of the work in setting up the line, and then transfering the line to private partner/SPV once AMCA gets IOC and starts production? Which means that SPV will come into picture in LSP stage, while TD and PV stages will be handled by HAL.

Why will HAL agree to put in all the spade work for sowing the seeds, nurturing the plants and then timidly stand aside when it comes time to harvest?

Why do we need the SPV at all? What is the strength any private entity can bring to the table? All the super strength alloys come from GoI (MiDhaNi etc), simulations & designs from GoI (ADA), manufacturing resources like forge press jigs tooling testing etc from GoI (HAL etc). HAL can be the lead integrator for AMCA just like they have been for Mk1 Tejas- then why SPV? Only to scale up? HAL will have 3 lines for Tejas that should be enough for time staggered MK1/A/Mk2/AMCA/TEDBF production?

So it's only 1/6 of the total part huh

Can't say for sure. Depends on how they have planned to manufacture it- obviously keeping in mind the specifications of the largest aerospace application forge press in the country.

 

[MonaLazy]

not HAL’s job to pick SPV

Who said it was? But someone's running the show surely, or is it bhagwan bharose? That entity is MoD on a day to day basis and PMO at a coarser level. So I meant to ask say the MoD why will you not onboard the private entity early in the program? We are past the design phase so it's not really early but still the earliest it can be from this point.

Get them to make mistakes early on where they will affect a smaller number of airframes whereas later once production is ramped up any mistake in manufacturing or QA will touch more air frames and be a bigger resultant mess.

In US ATF competition private contractors Boeing, General Dynamics, Lockheed, Northrop, and McDonnell Douglas were in on the action right from the design stage. They built the prototype YF-22 & 23 all by themselves using govt money.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

IF hal doesn't own any IP,mk1a is whose work then?ADA?

ADA and DRDO are the primary agencies working on development of Mk. 1A.

Your bets on which pvt company will manufacture it?

TASL is one of the contender.

 

[NutCracker]

[Hot Item] 30000 Ton Hydraulic Press

Warranty: 12 Months Feature: Automation, High Efficiency, Precision Customized: Customized Condition: New Capacity: 30000t Structure: Wire Winding

m.made-in-china.com

I had no idea how expensive these press machines are but Max we have in this country is only 10000T. If these quotations of 15.-2.5M$ from chinese website is true then we should fucking build it.
3-5M $ is pennies if we look at the overall project cost.

 

[MonaLazy]

[Hot Item] 30000 Ton Hydraulic Press

Warranty: 12 Months Feature: Automation, High Efficiency, Precision Customized: Customized Condition: New Capacity: 30000t Structure: Wire Winding

m.made-in-china.com

I had no idea how expensive these press machines are but Max we have in this country is only 10000T. If these quotations of 15.-2.5M$ from chinese website is true then we should fucking build it.
3-5M $ is pennies if we look at the overall project cost.

No it can't be so cheap, not for the 40-50K tonne capacity.

See here for some context

DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

defenceforumindia.com

US spent $100M just for repairs. But your observation is correct- even if it costs $500M- it will be pennies in the overall cost.

 

[NutCracker]

No it can't be so cheap, not for the 40-50K tonne capacity.

See here for some context

DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

defenceforumindia.com

US spent $100M just for repairs. But your observation is correct- even if it costs $500M- it will be pennies in the overall cost.

I did a little more digging .
Around 2015 Chinese group made 80000Tonne press with 250M$ for aviation and aerospace sector.

 

[mokoman]

[Hot Item] 30000 Ton Hydraulic Press

Warranty: 12 Months Feature: Automation, High Efficiency, Precision Customized: Customized Condition: New Capacity: 30000t Structure: Wire Winding

m.made-in-china.com

I had no idea how expensive these press machines are but Max we have in this country is only 10000T. If these quotations of 15.-2.5M$ from chinese website is true then we should fucking build it.
3-5M $ is pennies if we look at the overall project cost.

looks like these are for working on thin metal sheets . one we need are forging ones , few stories high, they press a large metal block into entire aircraft part.

didnt know these were build like this.

really interesting stuff. there is this old ww2 doc about the machine @MonaLazy posted.

 

[no smoking]

[Hot Item] 30000 Ton Hydraulic Press

Warranty: 12 Months Feature: Automation, High Efficiency, Precision Customized: Customized Condition: New Capacity: 30000t Structure: Wire Winding

m.made-in-china.com

I had no idea how expensive these press machines are but Max we have in this country is only 10000T. If these quotations of 15.-2.5M$ from chinese website is true then we should fucking build it.
3-5M $ is pennies if we look at the overall project cost.

Those are only for civilian usage, precision is not good enough for high-end metal component.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Then why not pick that unknown future private player of the SPV now and have that organisation build the prototypes and avoid teething issues later? This makes sense only if HAL Nashik will be forging all bulkheads for all AMCAs ever produced.

Bulkheads require large investments in huge capacity presses that usually make economic sense only for govts to own and amortize over different varieties of air crafts.

As you said Bulkheads require large investments and the current pool of private don't seem to have such capacity (citation needed) and without confirmed order no one is going to buy such machines.
On the other had HAL has such unused capacity in its Nashik plant after MKI production is complete.

I am of the opinion we are using part of the infrastructure we developed/used for MKI production to keep the prototyping cost low for AMCA.

 

[MonaLazy]

As you said Bulkheads require large investments and the current pool of private don't seem to have such capacity (citation needed) and without confirmed order no one is going to buy such machines.
On the other had HAL has such unused capacity in its Nashik plant after MKI production is complete.

I am of the opinion we are using part of the infrastructure we developed/used for MKI production to keep the prototyping cost low for AMCA.

They are NOT large! That's the point I'm trying to make. The cost appears large when seen out of context.

Even if the press costs us $250M (like the 80K tonne aero forge press cost the Chinese) that is peanuts for an AMCA program of $2B, where the engine itself will separately cost €6B.

The beauty is it has ramifications beyond AMCA. Once GoI has such a facility at its disposal- it can be used to create one-piece bulkheads for ALL fighter aircraft- Mk1A/Mk2/AMCA/TEDBF/AHCA (maybe even slow-moving transport & refuelling aircraft- though I'm not sure they need this finesse of engineering Ti single piece vs Al multi piece bulkhead as they don't experience the same stress and speeds), so all those airframes come out with better strength & lighter weight- which is the kind of upgrade you always look for in the world of flying since every kg saved from the basic frame translates to payload.

So creation of such a high capacity, high class forge press specifically for aero application should have been part of AMCA program from the requirements stage. The only reason I'm thinking they didn't do it is because the cost-benefit analysis did not work out for them. But if not now then when? There will never be a surge of fighter manufacturing in the country like we will see up until 2040- beyond that in the next wave of innovation the airspace will be defended mostly by UCAVs with a (wo)man-in-the-middle probably just helping from the ground, remotely.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

They are NOT large! That's the point I'm trying to make. The cost appears large when seen out of context.

Even if the press costs us $250M (like the 80K tonne aero forge press cost the Chinese) that is peanuts for an AMCA program of $2B, where the engine itself will separately cost €6B.

The cost you mention are the development cost for AMCA program. This cost does not include production infrastructure cost. Funds will be released for production infrastructure development once AMCA prototype becomes viable for mass manufacturing.
Once production is approved, GoI will release money for mass production, this is when buying such press will be done.