AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

ObiWanKenobi

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Nope, except for F35. F22, Su 57, even J20 consider ccms, at the end - dog fight. In 5th plus stealth gen fighter jet warfare, dog fight & ccm is more important than bvr. That's why USAF next gen air superiority jets asap to protect b2, b21 and F35. BVR only good against 4.5minus jets. In simple- when two f22 detect each other ?
Wouldn't F35 be the most formidable dogfighter?

It's got whole sphere DAS coverage out to 10s of miles. The pilot simply fires an AIM9X which can lock on after launch like Python 5.

If AMCA came with a DAS like system and EW capability which is even half as good as F-35, it will be major leap for us.
 

johnj

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Wouldn't F35 be the most formidable dogfighter?

It's got whole sphere DAS coverage out to 10s of miles. The pilot simply fires an AIM9X which can lock on after launch like Python 5.

If AMCA came with a DAS like system and EW capability which is even half as good as F-35, it will be major leap for us.
On paper yes, In reality no. DAS is extremely superior compared to other MAWS, but its irst function not so much, and 4.5th gen having better irst than f35 currently, but in near future LM replace current ones with new ones may be in 2027/28.
AIM 9x bk 2 is best ccm in the world, but F35 mostly choose aim 120 d and 6/12 bombs.
If you consider both ccm & bvr, then the question is when f35 achieve a lock on f35/f22/j20[more advanced versions] and enter into a mutual kill situation, and considering all 5th gen F35 aerodynamic performance is worst.
Dogfighter - f35 already lost to f16.
Amca DAS - F35 DAS is inferior to 4.5th/5 th gen irst, night vision, LM soon replace outdated das hardware with new ones, means AMCA need twice better das compared to f35.
EW & DAS - in our case yes, but 4.5th gen having better EW & IRST compared to f35 now. F/A 18 G having better EW suite.
The best thing about F35 is its stealth tech and rf sensor. F35 uses most reliable/durable stealth tech 2x better than f22 and radar is most advanced till date providing great details with ai. F 35 is also knows as JSF, and only 5th gen capable of carrying 900kg plus single weapon.
Bottom line, like USAF said, F35 need escort to complete its missions.[AMCA don't].
 

Fonck83

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Announcing MRO for commercial engines, French aircraft engine maker Safran plans to move on to military engines in India in the near future. For its dual engine fighter proposal, the business has also volunteered to work with DRDO on the development of 110 KN thrust military engines.

As part of its offset commitments, Safran, a prominent manufacturer of commercial aircraft engines, is preparing to announce the opening of an MRO facility in India for its LEAP commercial aircraft engines. When Safran CEO Olivier Andres meets with Indian Civil Aviation Minister JyotiradityaScindia tomorrow, the MRO facility will reportedly be confirmed.

To set up a state of the art MRO facility, the Indian subsidiary route will be used to service about 330 engines from Indian commercial carriers as well as Safran-GE joint venture engines from nations in South Asia, West Asia, and Africa. As part of the “Atmanirbhar Bharat” initiative, SAFRAN proposes to invest USD 150 million in the facility to support MRO of military engines currently utilised in Indian Air Force Rafale and Mirage 2000 jets. The Indian Air Force has purchased 26 Rafale multi-role fighters from the French firm, which is also India’s leading helicopter engine provider.

Additionally, the French company has submitted a proposal to the Indian government for the development of a new state-of-the-art 110 kilo newton thrust engine for India’s futuristic advanced medium combat aircraft twin-engine AMCA fighter project with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) at the Department of Research and Development (DRDO).

According to a defence expert, the cost per engine for 400 engines will be 10-12 million euros, which is what we already spend for engines. If we have 6-7 squadrons, we’ll need 400 engines to power our twin-engine AMCAs. The expert went on to say that you’ll probably need more.

To protect US national security and advance US foreign policy objectives, the ITAR is a US regulatory regime that restricts and controls the export of defence and military-related technologies. The Safran offer is not subject to the ITAR. So the proposed Safran-GTRE joint venture can sell military engines to third countries without having to comply with any restrictions.

If the co-development procedure is approved this year, the French business expects the new 110 KN engine to be certified by 2035. The 110 KN engine’s co-development will cost between five and six billion euros in total.

However, the DRDO is also considering using the GE-414 engine as an alternative to power the AMCA project, but Safran’s offer includes performance guarantees and the transfer of all necessary technology for the design, development, production, and support of aero-engines in India.

It was originally designed to power Tejas LCA fighters, however the GTRE has been working on the Kaveri engine since 1996. LCA engines now use GE-404 engines, which are no longer tied to Tejas.
 

Concard

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Announcing MRO for commercial engines, French aircraft engine maker Safran plans to move on to military engines in India in the near future. For its dual engine fighter proposal, the business has also volunteered to work with DRDO on the development of 110 KN thrust military engines.

As part of its offset commitments, Safran, a prominent manufacturer of commercial aircraft engines, is preparing to announce the opening of an MRO facility in India for its LEAP commercial aircraft engines. When Safran CEO Olivier Andres meets with Indian Civil Aviation Minister JyotiradityaScindia tomorrow, the MRO facility will reportedly be confirmed.

To set up a state of the art MRO facility, the Indian subsidiary route will be used to service about 330 engines from Indian commercial carriers as well as Safran-GE joint venture engines from nations in South Asia, West Asia, and Africa. As part of the “Atmanirbhar Bharat” initiative, SAFRAN proposes to invest USD 150 million in the facility to support MRO of military engines currently utilised in Indian Air Force Rafale and Mirage 2000 jets. The Indian Air Force has purchased 26 Rafale multi-role fighters from the French firm, which is also India’s leading helicopter engine provider.

Additionally, the French company has submitted a proposal to the Indian government for the development of a new state-of-the-art 110 kilo newton thrust engine for India’s futuristic advanced medium combat aircraft twin-engine AMCA fighter project with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) at the Department of Research and Development (DRDO).

According to a defence expert, the cost per engine for 400 engines will be 10-12 million euros, which is what we already spend for engines. If we have 6-7 squadrons, we’ll need 400 engines to power our twin-engine AMCAs. The expert went on to say that you’ll probably need more.

To protect US national security and advance US foreign policy objectives, the ITAR is a US regulatory regime that restricts and controls the export of defence and military-related technologies. The Safran offer is not subject to the ITAR. So the proposed Safran-GTRE joint venture can sell military engines to third countries without having to comply with any restrictions.

If the co-development procedure is approved this year, the French business expects the new 110 KN engine to be certified by 2035. The 110 KN engine’s co-development will cost between five and six billion euros in total.

However, the DRDO is also considering using the GE-414 engine as an alternative to power the AMCA project, but Safran’s offer includes performance guarantees and the transfer of all necessary technology for the design, development, production, and support of aero-engines in India.

It was originally designed to power Tejas LCA fighters, however the GTRE has been working on the Kaveri engine since 1996. LCA engines now use GE-404 engines, which are no longer tied to Tejas.
2035? Eh? We might as well take a rebirth before that. How could the timeline be so long? On one side they are saying AMCA will start production by 2030. Then they are saying new engine won't be ready before 2035.
 

karn

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2035? Eh? We might as well take a rebirth before that. How could the timeline be so long? On one side they are saying AMCA will start production by 2030. Then they are saying new engine won't be ready before 2035.
What's so surprising ? The difficulty of building a new next gen engine is well known .. just take a gander to the kaveri engine thread .. And AMCA mk1 will fly with 414 . This engine is only for the AMCA mk2 .
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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I would like to add that TVC only improves maneuverability marginally
A non-TVC jet has to take a C-turn while a TVC jet can make a V-turn as F-22 shows regularly. The MiG-29OVT, Su-35 & Su-57 also showed excellent maneuvers.
As long as gun & LOBL missiles are there, TVC will give edge. IF DEW replaces gun & LOAL DAS-guided turning missiles replace current ones then TVC may not be required.

against the complexity it adds to the entire system.
We are not in WW era's "simplicity". Engineers are not afraid of complexity, the common citizens like us are.
TVC is just modification of actuators to vector the exhaust panels in X-Y axis to give 3-D effect rather than just radially inwards/outwards to adjust thrust. It depends on skill of mechanical engineers to make it. It's size & weight is not that much as anti-TVC people protest & project. People ignore the obvious requirement of a better T/w ratio & avionics S/w how fast it controls the jet. The export models have slower S/w which is locked & encrypted.

The biggest problem with maneuverability is that once you start maneuvering you loose the track of enemy, you can't effectively shoot back and you waste too much fuel.
Problems & Solutions are cyclic. If you identify continious lock as a problem then obviously the logical solution is distributed RF & EO sensors to give spherical coverage to maintain continious lock, that's the aim of 5th gen fighter. But the missiles have not improved yet, i'm not sure if a LOAL version of RF & IR missiles have been made but they have been advertised with F-35 so they are surely coming.

One don't do complex maneuvers in combat.
Apart from F-22, the Su-30MKI, MKM, Russian & Chinese Su-35-S have TVC & their pilots train using TVC daily. But some of these jets, especially the export models do not have the right T/w ratio hence they lose energy & altitude upon using TVC but IAF has indicated that it saved the jets from Pakistani AMRAAMs. TVC doubles up as an emergency brake, so it can use certain maneuvers along with various counter-measures at the precise time to cause BVR missiles to miss, perhaps CCM missiles too at certain angles.

If one does cost benefit analysis designing an aerodynamically superior plane is better option than adding TVC.
We are TWO DECADES into FIFTH gen era surpassing FOUR gens already & still if you say this then it is better to stop spending on R&D itself & start using turbo-props with guns & use rest money for public welfare.
The whole idea is to implement any technology so far in advance than adversary nation, to lead them by at least 1-3 decades that possibly a gen gap is created.
The countries who can't lead always cry & criticize to hide their incapability to compete.
This is not stupid movie like Top Gun Maverick where F-14 & F-18 will defeat Su-57. Reality as per USAF itself is exactly opposite. The directors & producers have made fun of their own country's decades of R&D & F-22/35. The movie is a publicity stunt to secure international orders for F-18-E/F.
The Chinese are working for stealthy TVC engines for their jets. J-10C has demonstrated it & J-20 & J-35 will probably get it too. So it is important for us also to develop it till we replace guns with DEW & LOBL missiles with DAS-guided LOAL ones.
Hence the cost-benefit analysis can save lives of pilots & the jet asset.
 

abingdonboy

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2035? Eh? We might as well take a rebirth before that. How could the timeline be so long? On one side they are saying AMCA will start production by 2030. Then they are saying new engine won't be ready before 2035.
That’s why AMCA MK.1 exists.

2035 for certification fits perfectly with AMCA MK.2’s timelines. This is if GOI gets off their lazy backsides and signs this agreement this year , every year they delay is another year AMCA MK.2 is delayed
 

sakalasiva

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Does anyone have an idea why amca internal bay capacity is limited to 1.5 tons on contrast to other 5th gen fighters like f35 which has 2.25 ton payload capacity. Is IAF compromising on internal bay capacity for any reason.
 

MonaLazy

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Does anyone have an idea why amca internal bay capacity is limited to 1.5 tons on contrast to other 5th gen fighters like f35 which has 2.25 ton payload capacity. Is IAF compromising on internal bay capacity for any reason.
Under promise and overdeliver? Just like Tejas Mk1 payload went up to 5.3t after staying at 3.5t for a major part of its dev lifecycle.
 

johnj

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Does anyone have an idea why amca internal bay capacity is limited to 1.5 tons on contrast to other 5th gen fighters like f35 which has 2.25 ton payload capacity. Is IAF compromising on internal bay capacity for any reason.
Space restrictions, low space to carry more weapons or heavy weapons, also AMCA can carry payload similar to j20, f22 & su57 minus 200kg and amca comes under medium category and rest medium-heavy.
JSF or F35 build/designed for deep strike missions, and need to carry big weapon, and only f35 can carry single 900kg+ weapon. IAF can consider heavy bomber like b2/h20/pak da/b21 etc for heavy weapon & only compromising in AMCA is SWB, a huge drawback.
 

sakalasiva

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Space restrictions, low space to carry more weapons or heavy weapons, also AMCA can carry payload similar to j20, f22 & su57 minus 200kg and amca comes under medium category and rest medium-heavy.
JSF or F35 build/designed for deep strike missions, and need to carry big weapon, and only f35 can carry single 900kg+ weapon. IAF can consider heavy bomber like b2/h20/pak da/b21 etc for heavy weapon & only compromising in AMCA is SWB, a huge drawback.
What is SWB?
 

MonaLazy

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Historic moment!

HAL CMD, Mr R Madhavan launched the ‘Metal Cutting for Titanium Bulkhead of AMCA aircraft’ as part of technology development at Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Nashik in the presence of Dr. A K Ghosh, PD(AMCA) ADA, senior officers from DMRL, ADA and other Government agencies.

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MonaLazy

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I have my doubts (I'm neither a metallurgist nor Mech engineer) on wether this will make it into the final design as the challenges in ensuring QC/QA for this are immense and will depend on High Cycle Fatigue testing that will probably be carried out now. The fatigue testing is important to ensure durability for the whole lifecycle of the aircraft. F-35 bulkheads faced a lot of challenges during development regarding this as they very frequently observed fatigue cracks in HCF testing.

I also have doubts on how Midhani achieved this as F-35 related reports indicate that they needed large 35000 Ton force and 50000 Ton force forge presses to achieve (due to the thickness) this but AFAIK Midhani only has max up to 6000 Ton force (for steels not aerospace metals.

The largest forge presses in India are at Bharat Forge (15000 Ton) and L&THSSF (L&T-NPCIL JV) Hazira( 9000 Ton I think - planned 17000 Ton). All the presses mentioned above including MIDHANI, L&SSHF, Bharat Forge are all hammer presses for Steel applications and cannot be used for stamping applications required for Metals like Aluminium, Titanium and Magnesium stamps commonly used in Aerospace.

Maybe they can make it work without going too high end like F-35 and making some compromises.

For Aerospace, HAL has a 3000-tonne water hydraulic press with extrusion capability for Aerospace applications and this will probably be used to forge it at HAL after the die is received from Midhani.

HAL can probably accelerate this process by building a 50000 Ton or 60000 Ton press. There are very few of these in the world as their need is only for high precision aerospace components mainly large civil aircraft.

Few were built in the US as part of USAF's Heavy Press Program in the 1970's which are still used for all US applications including civil aircraft at Boeing

France has an USSR's (Ukranian) NKMZ built 75000 Ton press which is used by Airbus, Boeing etc. & other European companies. There's one in Ukraine and one in Russia (both 75000 Ton soviet era).

Japan and China each recently built theirs - circa 2013.

We haven't built one as there is no civilian aircraft manufacturing to make it viable but either HAL or MIDHANI or HINDALCO have to dip their hands in it now.

Based on American data, Each press of this size is expected to cost around USD 200 Million to USD 400 Million atleast which will have to come out of GoI capex. Won't be economically viable without govt funding as there is very little commercial need since we don't have a civil aircraft program. Even for Civil applications most of these forges were never economically viable to build and operate and were always govt funded. F-35 project had to pay USD 100 Million just to repair one of the presses at Alcoa.

HAL uses this old soviet era 3000 Ton closed die forge press seen in this video at Timestamp 7:41 that was procured during the MiG-23 license building era
As per Midhani annual report, Midhani has delivered test blocks of High Strength titanium alloy forging for high precision milling used to reduce the amount of structural work for the AMCA bulkhead similar to the F-35's monolithic titanium bulkhead.
Following the discussion on this very thread, it was highlighted that we need to spend on a large capacity press for aero application to churn out bulk heads like so in the JSF:
1657714527200.png



Instead they seem to be forging only in parts as snapped below, then bolt them together.

1657714392520.png



This was big news in 2005, but this is 2022.

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Edit: I see now it amounts to 10-15% weight savings which is a good to have but not a deal breaker.
 

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