AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[SARTHAK]

When @Bhartiya Sainik is speaking about AHCA, he is trying to propose a heavyweight stealth fighter based on AMCA's Technology.

AMCA stands for "Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft" whereas AHCA as proposed by @Bhartiya Sainik stands for "Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft".

From my POV, AMCA MK-1 will be 5th gen, MK-2 will be 5.5 gen and if something like AHCA does come out than it will be 6th generation.

i don't see dew weapons becoming a reality in upcoming 7-8 years , amca mk2 can/will be optionally manned as work is progessing faster on that , drdo with iit has started working on ir stealth coat ,rest of the sensors(and fusion) , net centric abilitites can be slowing improved ,ir , rf stealth potential of drdo or indian agencies is still to be seen

 

[SARTHAK]

some important and good news

 

[Super Flanker]

some important and good news

If US indeed does impose embargo on supply of engines than we will have alternative suppliers like Harsh Vardhan had stated. From my POV, France, Russia and UK can Prove to be alternative suppliers.

1.France can offer their M-88.
2.Russia can offer their RD-93.
3.UK can offer their EJ-2000.

But the issue with UK is that UK's policies and decisions are heavily influenced by the US, so if the US decides to stop supply of engine and we go to UK for their EJ-2000 than US might pressure UK to stop the sale of EJ-2000 to India. France too might come under pressure of US and not provide it's M-88 or any type of engine for India's aircrafts.

At last we have only 1 foreign supplier left which is Russia. Russia has RD-93 Which AFAIK can be used in Tejas. So my Conclusion is :

1. Source the engine from Russia.
2. Make an engine with a foreign partner with TOT so that you won't have to dependent on foreign vendors. Become self reliant in engine Technology.

 

[Super Flanker]

Look at the above image, this is an image of the Vertical Stabilizer of an F-22 Raptor.

Do you notice the "Smoothening" around the control surface of the vertical Stabilizer? This is a minute design feature and it reduces RCS to some extent.

I hope that our upcoming AMCA will have this design feature implemented on the control surfaces like Ailerons/leading edge flap/Elevons etc. This will make AMCA stealthier. @Bhartiya Sainik what is your opinion about this.

 

[Super Flanker]

i don't see dew weapons becoming a reality in upcoming 7-8 years , amca mk2 can/will be optionally manned as work is progessing faster on that , drdo with iit has started working on ir stealth coat ,rest of the sensors(and fusion) , net centric abilitites can be slowing improved ,ir , rf stealth potential of drdo or indian agencies is still to be seen

Go on Google and type "DRDO Directed energy Weopons" and you will find some useful material. Also search for Durga II High Power Laser Weopon.

 

[mokoman]

View attachment 157656

Look at the above image, this is an image of the Vertical Stabilizer of an F-22 Raptor.

Do you notice the "Smoothening" around the control surface of the vertical Stabilizer? This is a minute design feature and it reduces RCS to some extent.

I hope that our upcoming AMCA will have this design feature implemented on the control surfaces like Ailerons/leading edge flap/Elevons etc. This will make AMCA stealthier. @Bhartiya Sainik what is your opinion about this.

damn , amzing craftsmanship , its like a work of art.

it even has heat sheild for the engine

 

[Super Flanker]

damn , amzing craftsmanship , its like a work of art.

it even has heat sheild for the engine

Those are no heat shields, those are rectangular exhaust nozzles which help in rear view Stealth and also aid in reducing the IR signature of the engines. With those rectangular exhausts, the F-22 has TVC in the Pitch and roll axis.

 

[India Super Power]

damn , amzing craftsmanship , its like a work of art.

it even has heat sheild for the engine

I guess what you are terming as shield is 2d tvc

 

[Super Flanker]

I guess what you are terming as shield is 2d tvc

damn , amzing craftsmanship , its like a work of art.

it even has heat sheild for the engine

Any chance that we could see such design in AMCA? If we implement such Stealthy exhausts in AMCA than AMCA will become stealthier from the rear and have a reduced IR signature.

 

[India Super Power]

Any chance that we could see such design in AMCA? If we implement such Stealthy exhausts in AMCA than AMCA will become stealthier from the rear and have a reduced IR signature.

Basically 2d tvc can be designed for stealth but in 3d tvs I guess we can't or process could be complicated
I don't know amca will have 2d or 3d tvc

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The downside of such rectangular nozzle is reduced thrust at the cost of reduced rear aspect RCS and IR signature. Thus, F-22 needed a more powerful engine to acheive the same kinematic performance of a typical 4.5 generation Su-27 (and its derivatives) which have round nozzles.

It was always a question of design compromise.

Later, US switched to chevronne mozzle (sawtooth style) in F-35. It had better kinematic performance than rectangular nozzles, at the cost of increased rear aspect RCS and increased rear IR signature. Most like other 5th generation fighters like J-20, PAK-FA and AMCA will have chevronne nozzles.

 

[Super Flanker]

Basically 2d tvc can be designed for stealth but in 3d tvs I guess we can't or process could be complicated
I don't know amca will have 2d or 3d tvc

AMCA MK-1 will be using GE-414 engines as it's powerplant and GE-414 doesn't have any sort of thrust vectoring Capability.

And anyways why would we want 3d TVC in AMCA? We don't need to make AMCA super Manouverable like SU-57.

The downside of such rectangular nozzle is reduced thrust at the cost of reduced rear aspect RCS and IR signature. Thus, F-22 needed a more powerful engine to acheive the same kinematic performance of a typical 4.5 generation Su-27 (and its derivatives).

It was always a question of design compromise.

Later, US switched to chevronne mozzle (sawtooth style) in F-35. It had better kinematic performance than rectangular nozzles, at the cost of increased rear aspect RCS and increased rear IR signature. Most like other 5th generation fighters like J-20, PAK-FA and AMCA will have chevronne nozzles.

This is very well Said.

 

[India Super Power]

AMCA MK-1 will be using GE-414 engines as it's powerplant and GE-414 doesn't have any sort of thrust vectoring Capability.

And anyways why would we want 3d TVC in AMCA? We don't need to make AMCA super Manouverable like SU-57.

This is very well Said.

I am talking about new engine which will be developed with Safran
I guess even that won't have tvc capabilities

 

[Ajax01]

The downside of such rectangular nozzle is reduced thrust at the cost of reduced rear aspect RCS and IR signature. Thus, F-22 needed a more powerful engine to acheive the same kinematic performance of a typical 4.5 generation Su-27 (and its derivatives) which have round nozzles.

It was always a question of design compromise.

Later, US switched to chevronne mozzle (sawtooth style) in F-35. It had better kinematic performance than rectangular nozzles, at the cost of increased rear aspect RCS and increased rear IR signature. Most like other 5th generation fighters like J-20, PAK-FA and AMCA will have chevronne nozzles.

Elliptical has greater mass entrainment than rectangular at same Nozzle Pressure Ratio. So it gives out less ir signature in 3-5 micro meter in which many ir missiles operate

 

[Super Flanker]

I am talking about new engine which will be developed with Safran
I guess even that won't have tvc capabilities

I doubt AMCA will ever get any sort of TVC Capability and lastly from my POV, there is no need of AMCA to have TVC Capability.

It will be more like F-35 style than SU-57/F-22 style.

 

[Blademaster]

damn , amzing craftsmanship , its like a work of art.

it even has heat sheild for the engine

Yes but it carries a weight penalty for the plane affecting the range and payload. Notice the combat range of F-22 versus the Su-57.

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From this website: https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor

F-22 Raptor's Performance

• Maximum speed:1,498 mph (2,410 km/h)
  • At altitude: Classified, Greater than Mach 2.42 (1600-1660 mph[1] (1500 mph published but this is understated) )
  • Supercruise: Mach 1.82 (1,220 mph, 1,963 km/h)
• Range: 1,600 nmi (1,840 mi, 2,960 km) with 2 external fuel tanks
• Combat radius: 410 nmi (471 mi, 759 km)
• Ferry range: 2,000 mi (1,738 nmi, 3,219 km)
• Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,812 m)
• Wing loading: 77 lb/ft² (375 kg/m²)
• Thrust/weight: 1.08 (1.26 with loaded weight & 50% fuel)
• Maximum design g-load: -3.0/+9.0 g

Versus the Su-57's performance from the wiki's website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57#Stealth

Su-57's Performance:

• Maximum speed:Mach 2 (2,135 km/h; 1,327 mph) at altitude
  • Mach 1.3 (1,400 km/h; 870 mph) supercruise at altitude
• Range: 3,500 km (2,200 mi, 1,900 nmi) subsonic, 4,500 km from 2 outboard fuel tanks[241]
  • Supersonic range: 1,500 km (930 mi, 810 nmi)
• Service ceiling: 20,000 m (66,000 ft)
• g limits: +9.0
• Wing loading: 371 kg/m2 (76 lb/sq ft) normal takeoff weight
• Thrust/weight: 1.02 (1.19 at normal takeoff weight)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Su-57 has twice the range of F-22.

 

[SARTHAK]

Go on Google and type "DRDO Directed energy Weopons" and you will find some useful material. Also search for Durga II High Power Laser Weopon.

dew on plane is a real challenge , you can build mammoth sized dew but power requirement will also be mammoth , ground based systems have been developed to counter drones , but dew on jets is a different story altogether

 

[SARTHAK]

If US indeed does impose embargo on supply of engines than we will have alternative suppliers like Harsh Vardhan had stated. From my POV, France, Russia and UK can Prove to be alternative suppliers.

1.France can offer their M-88.
2.Russia can offer their RD-93.
3.UK can offer their EJ-2000.

But the issue with UK is that UK's policies and decisions are heavily influenced by the US, so if the US decides to stop supply of engine and we go to UK for their EJ-2000 than US might pressure UK to stop the sale of EJ-2000 to India. France too might come under pressure of US and not provide it's M-88 or any type of engine for India's aircrafts.

At last we have only 1 foreign supplier left which is Russia. Russia has RD-93 Which AFAIK can be used in Tejas. So my Conclusion is :

1. Source the engine from Russia.
2. Make an engine with a foreign partner with TOT so that you won't have to dependent on foreign vendors. Become self reliant in engine Technology.

imho france is not going to succumb under usa pressure in near future that is the difference between all other nato members and france ,iaf will never prefer ruski engines + rafale made its first flight on ge engines not on an m88 so that means fitting in the same space wouldn't be an issue too

 

[SARTHAK]

damn , amzing craftsmanship , its like a work of art.

it even has heat sheild for the engine

intakes are an issue for raptor not a good thing , flat intakes reduce the effective thrust and hence were not used in f35, f35 uses serrated patterns for rf stealth on rear aspect , ir stealth is better on f22 though

 

[Super Flanker]

dew on plane is a real challenge , you can build mammoth sized dew but power requirement will also be mammoth , ground based systems have been developed to counter drones , but dew on jets is a different story altogether

Over time the Technology will definitely mature to the level that we will be able to miniature DEW so that it will be applicable to be used in aircrafts.

When I saw images of 6th generation fighter concepts on "OPEN SOURCE" than most of them feature laser or DEW Weopons in them. I think so that our AHCA (if it comes after AMCA) will feature it.

Already we have started with the basics. We will get to the more advanced stages later on.