AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

WolfPack86

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IAF MAY GET INDIGENOUS JET ENGINE FOR AMCA 5TH GEN FIGHTER AS FRENCH TECH GIANT SAFRAN IS SET TO JOIN HANDS
Amidst the India-China standoff in Ladakh, India is pursuing to hasten development and procurement of indigenous weaponry to counter a perceptible Chinese threat. India may finally get its first indigenous jet engine which may power the country's fifth generation advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA)

As per reports in the media, the DRDO is planning a new fighter jet engine complex under the offset clause of the Rafale fighter deal with France.

DRDO is said to be in advanced discussions to build a brand new a 110 kilo newton engine for India's future fighter jets, which will be able to power the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA).

This plan to power India's 5th generation fighter jet with an indigenous engine is in line with the Indian Air Force's (IAF) demand to ensure self-reliance.

Under the program, the new engine complex will take up to seven years to produce the new turbofans after development begins. French engine manufacturer Safran is offering a complete technology transfer to develop the engine and to use the offset credits from the French Dassault Rafale deal. Safran is a French multinational aircraft engine, rocket engine, aerospace-component and defence company, which has had long and close association with Indian defence manufactures and the MoD.

Safran is also tying up with HAL to provide the technology for high thrust engine manufacturing.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. The air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

"We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project", the HAL Chairman R Madhavan has been quoted as saying.

The new engines may equip the future squadrons of the IAF, as they would not be ready for the AMCA fighters, however, HAL has contracted for the American made GE F414 engines to run the AMCA test programs. and also for the first lot of initial squadrons. The new engine complex will be a step forward for India to lessen its dependence on Russia and other Western nations for fighter jet engines. Another significant factor would be the immense cost-cutting due to the development of a homegrown engine.
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale offsets: M-88 engine complex soon, French to co-develop 110 kn engine for AMCA
Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.

“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation – to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
 

Trololo

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Rafale offsets: M-88 engine complex soon, French to co-develop 110 kn engine for AMCA
Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.

“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation – to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
I highly, highly, and once again, HIGHLY doubt about full ToT for hot section of gas turbine engines from any country. Look at the business impact:
1> Engines for domestic fighter jets. Why should a GE, P&W, Saturn, RR, or SAFRAN share the tech with us that will let us NOT buy their wares for lots of $$.
2> Spin off commercial jet engines to be used in passenger aircraft. And undercut all of the above in price.
3> Spin off commercial turboprop engines for the above. And military transports.
4> Spin off marine gas turbine engines.

They stand to lose billions of $$ in business. So I will take this with a grain of salt. And these companies struggled decades and failed many times before reaching here. So why should they give us such money making tech and create another peer?
 

Tridev123

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I highly, highly, and once again, HIGHLY doubt about full ToT for hot section of gas turbine engines from any country. Look at the business impact:
1> Engines for domestic fighter jets. Why should a GE, P&W, Saturn, RR, or SAFRAN share the tech with us that will let us NOT buy their wares for lots of $$.
2> Spin off commercial jet engines to be used in passenger aircraft. And undercut all of the above in price.
3> Spin off commercial turboprop engines for the above. And military transports.
4> Spin off marine gas turbine engines.

They stand to lose billions of $$ in business. So I will take this with a grain of salt. And these companies struggled decades and failed many times before reaching here. So why should they give us such money making tech and create another peer?
Funny isn't it. Nuclear weapons technology is far more disruptive and can change power equations between countries in an instant but is relatively proliferated more.

On the other hand the technology for manufacturing high performance jet engines is still very closely guarded. But I am still hopeful that we might strike a deal with either the UK or France.

The writing on the wall is clear. India needs to broadbase turbofan engine research and invest more. Having only GTRE doing the work is myopic.
 

Tridev123

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Waiting for CCS to sanction the prototype development of AMCA,any idea when it would be done?
I know both the MWF and AMCA programs are running in parallel with separate work teams but the ADA should jump start the MWF first. If we produce the first prototype of the MWF this year it will take minimum 5 years to complete flight testing and removal of bugs. Both the airframe and the engine have to be validated. The GE414 has never been tested on any Indian plane though it is a tested and certified engine powering the F18 SH.


Get the goddamn MWF programme running. The AMCA can wait for some time. As the high tech technologies for the AMCA are not ready yet.
 

SavageKing456

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I know both the MWF and AMCA programs are running in parallel with separate work teams but the ADA should jump start the MWF first. If we produce the first prototype of the MWF this year it will take minimum 5 years to complete flight testing and removal of bugs. Both the airframe and the engine have to be validated. The GE414 has never been tested on any Indian plane though it is a tested and certified engine powering the F18 SH.


Get the goddamn MWF programme running. The AMCA can wait for some time. As the high tech technologies for the AMCA are not ready yet.
Which technologies are still left for MWF
 

Tridev123

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Which technologies are still left for MWF
Designing and developing the AMCA without bringing the MWF to fruition will be a more difficult task. The MWF will be a necessary stepping stone to make the AMCA project more feasible.
The Tejas mk2 or MWF will be substantially different from the Tejas mk1/mk1a.
Several new technologies have to be integrated. Like
- addition of canards
- retractable refuelling probe
- modified spine
- modified air intakes to match the greater thrust GE414
- modified canopy
- modification of the engine bay as the GE414 engine is chubbier than the
GE404
- internal IRST
- internal Jammer etc.
The main FCS itself will be different from the FCS of the Tejas mk1/mk1a. I have listed out only a few of the changes. The important thing to keep in mind is that many of the new technologies installed and validated on the MWF will be carried over to the AMCA.

There have been calls from certain members to junk the MWF and proceed directly to the AMCA but that would be a grave mistake. The MWF will be at least half a generation ahead of the LCA. Mk1/Mk1a. It will bridge the gap in capability development between the LCA and the AMCA. Its success will give us the confidence to build the AMCA. The bulk of the PLAAF and the PAF fleet is still composed of 4.0 and 4.5 generation fighters and will be so for at least a decade more. So there is a big need for a plane like the MWF.

Junking the MWF will only serve the import lobby who will then aggressively push for India to import foreign single engine fighters.
 

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