AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Karthi]

MWF will be a test platform for AMCA , And we are working on AMCA from atleast a decade , stealth profiling is almost done through various simulations and Wind Tunnel testing . After the Full scale model for RCS measurements it will generate more data and a perfect stealth airframe .

 

[Karthi]

Which one? ===================================================

EOTS like systems for Naval Applications and SAM system , reconnaissance systems for airborne applications

 

[Karthi]

HAL MWF is very very important for AMCA to be fruitful and we are missing the minute details here.

While the AMCA program is being developed stealth, advanced sensors and engine development are being focussed as primary goals to be achieved much less attention is being given on the aspects of interoperability, sensor fusion, supporting other arms of the military and the ability to seamlessly share situational awareness with them. In India the NATO Link 16 secure communication network is not allowed and most of the communication equipment used is either Russian, Israeli or French. The AMCA cannot be expected to have a robust secure communication network unless an indegeneous system is tried, tested and perfected. This opportunity will be provided only and only by the MWF which supposed to have Net Centric Capability.

Another nightmare for HAL had been manufacturing. Most people have criticised HAL for being less competent in manufacturing the licence built Russian aircrafts. HAL not being able to strike a deal with Dassault for manufacturing of Rafale is also cited as an example of incompetence. The ADA has decided that AMCA will be divided and produced in different modules and HAL will simply be a 'Lead Integrator’ of these modules.

It is necessary for HAL to develop and maintain such vendors and sub vendors to supply these modules. This will also be enabled because of MWF.

ADA and HAL are working on bringing next generation processes and technologies in the manufacturing of the MWF. Currently, the entire LCA Mk1 airframe structure is first assembled and then all LRUs, electric looms, piping and so on are fitted in an equipping stage. This is a serial process which takes up a significant amount of time. Instead, for MWF, ADA is working on a modular concept in which electric looms, piping, and connectors are terminated at sub-assembly interfaces with appropriate interconnectors. All the major sub-assemblies namely the three fuselage sections, wings, and the fin are also being designed with this modular approach in mind. Four Tier-1 suppliers have already been identified to take up these high-level sub-assemblies. These high level sub-assemblies are further subdivided into modular sub-sub-assemblies and so on. These, in turn which will be outsourced to Tier-2/3 suppliers.

The assembly will take place using a ‘jig-less’ assembly process. In this approach, the jigs are modular by design and have more versatility to adapt to any changes in the build standard of the aircraft. Such jigs can also be repurposed for a completely different assembly process in the future when required. Since the jig-less assembly approach does away with the conventional locating function, more automated operations such as robotic holes drilling are expected to be introduced in the assembly process. This approach could enable the Tier-1 suppliers to supply fully equipped sub-assembly modules to HAL. HAL can then simply connect these sub-assemblies using the interconnectors to quickly arrive at the final product, significantly reducing the final assembly time. With all these changes, HAL is confident of producing MWF at the rate of 24 aircraft per year from the currently existing two assembly lines. As of today, the Indian Air Force has given a letter of intent for 200 MWF. IAF is planning to replace its medium weight Mirage 2000, Jaguars and MiG29 fleets with MWF, in the coming decade.

 

[Chanakya 002]

India’s first and probably only 5.5 Generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program currently underway, is now heading towards final design phase with many key notable changes in the design which is now nearing completion and now features new 3D Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (DSI) compared to a conventional intake sported in earlier scale and graphic rendering of the AMCA. While exact radar cross-section (RCS) of AMCA will be classified, further RCS reduction measures have been carried out which full fills all the concept of stealth but its the next generation homegrown avionics and electronics including its gen-next weapons and ability to be used as a manned, unmanned, stealth and non-stealth modes which make it more lethal then current 5th generation fighter jets. DRDO Chief and seniors have often refused to compare AMCA with other 5th generation fighter jets developed by other countries in the past, but idrw.org has been informed that AMCA Mk2 will be better than Chinese J-20 and J-31 Stealth fighter jets and comparable to the American F-35. Technological benchmark being set by both developers and operators is to develop a jet that is as capable as an F-35A in stealth and much more in avionics and other technology. Once the design has been frozen, a full-scale model of the AMCA will be developed by VEM Technologies which will be used to measure RCS measurements at the outdoor Radar Cross Section (RCS) Test facility of DRDO at Chitradurga be the end of this year and the final design will be showcased for the first time by the end or in early 2021. Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (DSI) is also being planned for upcoming MWF-MK2 and TEDBF/ORCA programs, while it skips Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk1A due to negligible benefits. DRDO also has developed new Radar observant paint for the AMCA program which will also be used on the MWF-MK2 and TEDBF/ORCA programs.

http://idrw.org/amca-final-design-f...on-measures-to-make-it-first-5-5-gen-fighter/ .

Ye saale sirf Bari bari baatain kartain hain, naya Mangal grah ki technology ki or Banta jhant nahi hai in se.
Har din ek naya technology lekar aate Hain or pahla wala bhool jatain hain

 

[scatterStorm]

View attachment 45224

MWF will be a test platform for AMCA , And we are working on AMCA from atleast a decade , stealth profiling is almost done through various simulations and Wind Tunnel testing . After the Full scale model for RCS measurements it will generate more data and a perfect stealth airframe .

5+ gen, lol, If they achieve the RCS even close to 0.5 meters than we are talking, else you have a 4.5 gen plane, like it or not.

RCS results aren't cleared yet, we have a hell of job to find the correct chemistry for the Radar Absorbent Paint or have we done it already? What's the sustained alpha on AMCA by predictable data figures, do anybody have some data on it?

We will be facing and F16D again over LOC very soon and this time quite frankly in a merge, so it better have a good alpha similar to MIG 29UPG or the likes of F18 Super Hornet, thank goodness we purchased Rafael.

 

[Karthi]

5+ gen, lol, If they achieve the RCS even close to 0.5 meters than we are talking, else you have a 4.5 gen plane, like it or not.

RCS results aren't cleared yet, we have a hell of job to find the correct chemistry for the Radar Absorbent Paint or have we done it already? What's the sustained alpha on AMCA by predictable data figures, do anybody have some data on it?

We will be facing and F16D again over LOC very soon and this time quite frankly in a merge, so it better have a good alpha similar to MIG 29UPG or the likes of F18 Super Hornet, thank goodness we purchased Rafael.

. . .

 

[A chauhan]

Source:- From youtube

 

[Steven Rogers]

5+ gen, lol, If they achieve the RCS even close to 0.5 meters than we are talking, else you have a 4.5 gen plane, like it or not.

RCS results aren't cleared yet, we have a hell of job to find the correct chemistry for the Radar Absorbent Paint or have we done it already? What's the sustained alpha on AMCA by predictable data figures, do anybody have some data on it?

We will be facing and F16D again over LOC very soon and this time quite frankly in a merge, so it better have a good alpha similar to MIG 29UPG or the likes of F18 Super Hornet, thank goodness we purchased Rafael.

Lolz as if an engineer direct from DRDO is talking,tell us what chemistry problem does the DRDO have,and how did you calculate the RCS of any aircraft despite the fact none of the figures are correctly available anywhere......also do cite the research papers on the problems related to the "chemistry" usual blabbering won't be responded by any one....

 

[Suryavanshi]

for the Radar Absorbent Paint or have we done it already?

Yes
Three institutions came up with it.

One of the link is here.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india/iit-develops-stealth-technology/story-lCRAiAM2JfITcoU4ahCRBI.html

IIT kanpur and IIT Mumbai also came up with one.

Other than this we have radar absorbing Fabric and Material which is supposed to go inside internal weapons bay.

There was work going on the coatings of Canopy as well.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

W


The main thing for deployment of any thing is Money China has a lot of money and facilities , we should not underestimate J20 it's stealthy , agile and good Avionics , if it is capable of Atleast 75 Percentage of F35 that's enough . They produce it in large numbers and quantity is also quality

No it is not at all 75 pc of F 35. It is neither agile. It is a big plane with poor agility. YES, IT IS STEALTHIER but not stealth.

 

[no smoking]

View attachment 45224MWF will be a test platform for AMCA ,

How? There is almost zero similarity between MWF and AMCA. The 2 airplanes are 2 different types aerodynamic designs.

And we are working on AMCA from atleast a decade , stealth profiling is almost done through various simulations and Wind Tunnel testing.

On the contrast, the stealth & aerodynamic shape are still on-going. If you follow the concept picture of AMCA in the last 13 years, you will find the design kept changing time and time again. The one with DSI was simply the latest version. We can conclude that the detailed design work is far from complete, or even not begin yet.

 

[dude00720]

If you follow the concept picture of AMCA in the last 13 years, you will find the design kept changing time and time again.

When something is work in progress it is expected to change.

But, when you'rew stuck at the same place. you dont change(Reference : Newton)

 

[Karthi]

How? There is almost zero similarity between MWF and AMCA. The 2 airplanes are 2 different types aerodynamic designs.



On the contrast, the stealth & aerodynamic shape are still on-going. If you follow the concept picture of AMCA in the last 13 years, you will find the design kept changing time and time again. The one with DSI was simply the latest version. We can conclude that the detailed design work is far from complete, or even not begin yet.

MWF and AMCA are different designs but you need a supply chain to support AMCA , you need sensor , Materials manufacturing etc , only MWF can give it . AMCA technologies can test in MWF and can perfect those tech for AMCA .

Designing is one of the most important aspect , it will take many years and evolve in time ,A faulty design lead to a useless product .

 

[Bleh]

.............

MWF and AMCA are different designs but you need a supply chain to support AMCA , you need sensor , Materials manufacturing etc , only MWF can give it . AMCA technologies can test in MWF and can perfect those tech for AMCA .

Designing is one of the most important aspect , it will take many years and evolve in time ,A faulty design lead to a useless product .

Here you go...

And this: https://idrw.org/mwf-tejas-mk-2-will-feature-semi-stealth-air-frame/

 

[scatterStorm]

Lolz as if an engineer direct from DRDO is talking,tell us what chemistry problem does the DRDO have,and how did you calculate the RCS of any aircraft despite the fact none of the figures are correctly available anywhere......also do cite the research papers on the problems related to the "chemistry" usual blabbering won't be responded by any one....

Yeah no shit... Sherlock! That's what I am trying to discuss. We haven't have the any sort of publicly available data for AMCA. Yet very conveniently "engineers" over here, decided that it's going to be 5+ gen, do they even consider the gravity of the statement they made, if a DRDO engineer or ADA is saying that... than I don't know why we haven't been on news already, now are we?

Too bad we are buying Rafael's now ain't we.

Yes
Three institutions came up with it.

One of the link is here.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india/iit-develops-stealth-technology/story-lCRAiAM2JfITcoU4ahCRBI.html

IIT kanpur and IIT Mumbai also came up with one.

Read that article and now I am thinking, there must be someone who did much better than them, so I went to Research Gate and found this, because 86% isn't going to get us to 5+ gen jet naa.

Citation Source: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ith_Doping_Zn_and_Mn_for_Microwaves_Absorbent)

TL: DR

They could've done there due diligence and cited this paper, would have achieved 96% on RL (Reflection Loss). Now at -14dB @ 15GHz... that would be close to a Bird or SR71, that means our IIT-M & IIT-R guys doing a hell of a job achieving 86%, that would give them what... close to 0.1 m2 @ 15GHz, that's Rafael for you.

That's not enough when we say our AMCA would be 5+ gen.

(Refrence: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm)

Now, correct me if I am wrong, a true 5th Gen jet would have an RCS (Average) of 0.0005 m2 @15Ghz or better i.e. 0.0001 m2

Here's a low down. USAF spent trillion dollars to work upon the technology that we see today as F22 or F35 and we work at pennies and dimes, simply put the finances aren't in our favor. It's good that our PSU's are doing fine job, Tejas FOC standard achieved, great, now deploy them soon near LOC with Astra-MK1 along with our Rafel and SU30MKIs in large numbers an we are good to go.


Here's another tid-bit:

Merge pakka hona hai, kyuki you have what 700 to 800 odd Km of airspace to cover with for every paki bird, 3 of our birds (1:3). IAF recently ordered 700 Russian missiles. Now why would we do that, because first, shelf life and second because WVR. :biggrin2:

We ain't there yet.

 

[Karthi]

Yeah no shit... Sherlock! That's what I am trying to discuss. We haven't have the any sort of publicly available data for AMCA. Yet very conveniently "engineers" over here, decided that it's going to be 5+ gen, do they even consider the gravity of the statement they made, if a DRDO engineer or ADA is saying that... than I don't know why we haven't been on news already, now are we?

Too bad we are buying Rafael's now ain't we.





Read that article and now I am thinking, there must be someone who did much better than them, so I went to Research Gate and found this, because 86% isn't going to get us to 5+ gen jet naa.

Citation Source: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ith_Doping_Zn_and_Mn_for_Microwaves_Absorbent)


View attachment 45278

TL: DR

View attachment 45279

View attachment 45280

They could've done there due diligence and cited this paper, would have achieved 96% on RL (Reflection Loss). Now at -14dB @ 15GHz... that would be close to a Bird or SR71, that means our IIT-M & IIT-R guys doing a hell of a job achieving 86%, that would give them what... close to 0.1 m2 @ 15GHz, that's Rafael for you.

That's not enough when we say our AMCA would be 5+ gen.

(Refrence: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm)

Now, correct me if I am wrong, a true 5th Gen jet would have an RCS (Average) of 0.0005 m2 @15Ghz or better i.e. 0.0001 m2

Here's a low down. USAF spent trillion dollars to work upon the technology that we see today as F22 or F35 and we work at pennies and dimes, simply put the finances aren't in our favor. It's good that our PSU's are doing fine job, Tejas FOC standard achieved, great, now deploy them soon near LOC with Astra-MK1 along with our Rafel and SU30MKIs in large numbers an we are good to go.


Here's another tid-bit:

Merge pakka hona hai, kyuki you have what 700 to 800 odd Km of airspace to cover with for every paki bird, 3 of our birds (1:3). IAF recently ordered 700 Russian missiles. Now why would we do that, because first, shelf life and second because WVR. :biggrin2:

We ain't there yet.

Those figures achived by our researchers are great But that's not the case 60-70 percentage of stealth is coming from shaping. And these Radar absorbing materials will further improve the stealth .

And stealth obtaining through a number of technologies

Shaping.
Materials and paints.
Electronically.e tc
Not only radar stealth , IR stealth, acoustic stealth etc are to be achieved . A stealth aircraft is perfect blending of all these plus superior aerodynamics and we already achieved the design .

 

[Ajax01]

Yeah no shit... Sherlock! That's what I am trying to discuss. We haven't have the any sort of publicly available data for AMCA. Yet very conveniently "engineers" over here, decided that it's going to be 5+ gen, do they even consider the gravity of the statement they made, if a DRDO engineer or ADA is saying that... than I don't know why we haven't been on news already, now are we?

Too bad we are buying Rafael's now ain't we.





Read that article and now I am thinking, there must be someone who did much better than them, so I went to Research Gate and found this, because 86% isn't going to get us to 5+ gen jet naa.

Citation Source: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ith_Doping_Zn_and_Mn_for_Microwaves_Absorbent)


View attachment 45278

TL: DR

View attachment 45279

View attachment 45280

They could've done there due diligence and cited this paper, would have achieved 96% on RL (Reflection Loss). Now at -14dB @ 15GHz... that would be close to a Bird or SR71, that means our IIT-M & IIT-R guys doing a hell of a job achieving 86%, that would give them what... close to 0.1 m2 @ 15GHz, that's Rafael for you.

That's not enough when we say our AMCA would be 5+ gen.

(Refrence: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm)

Now, correct me if I am wrong, a true 5th Gen jet would have an RCS (Average) of 0.0005 m2 @15Ghz or better i.e. 0.0001 m2

Here's a low down. USAF spent trillion dollars to work upon the technology that we see today as F22 or F35 and we work at pennies and dimes, simply put the finances aren't in our favor. It's good that our PSU's are doing fine job, Tejas FOC standard achieved, great, now deploy them soon near LOC with Astra-MK1 along with our Rafel and SU30MKIs in large numbers an we are good to go.


Here's another tid-bit:

Merge pakka hona hai, kyuki you have what 700 to 800 odd Km of airspace to cover with for every paki bird, 3 of our birds (1:3). IAF recently ordered 700 Russian missiles. Now why would we do that, because first, shelf life and second because WVR. :biggrin2:

We ain't there yet.

Here is what happens when you comment without seeing everything . The article is from 2006, surely they have developed it further in these 14 yrs? Besides its 89%

 

[Ajax01]

COURSE CONTENTS  Principles of Stealth – camouflage, conceal, deceive;  Active vs. Passive detection;  Mission Attainment Measure, Aircraft Survival rate, Measure of Mission Success, & Mission Goal;  Survivability, Susceptibility, Vulnerability of Aircraft & Helicopter in Human-made Hostile Environment;  Precision Guided Weapons & Role of Stealth Aircraft;  Introduction to Aircraft Signatures – radar (Radar Cross-Section & its reduction), IR, Visual, Aural;  Introduction to Materials for Stealth;  Stealth related to air-intakes;  Stealth related to UCAV design;  Basics of high frequency RCS of aerospace & naval targets;  Extremely low frequency electric field modeling & reducing signatures;  RCS computations for realistic geometries - issues & challenges;  Design synthesis & modeling of Radar Absorbing Materials;  Aero-acoustic field & its modeling;  Simulation & mitigation of laser lethality;  Principles of IR Radiation – basic laws (Planck’s, Wien’s Displacement, Kirchhoff’s), Grey Body spectrum of Solid Surfaces vs. Line & Narrow Band Emission from Unsymmetrical Gases [e.g. CO2, H2O (vap.)];  IR Signatures in 2–3 m, 3-5 m, 8-12 m;  IR Signatures from Internal Sources – engine heated casing, engine exhaust plume, aerodynamic heating of airframe in supersonic aircraft;  Simulation of plume for IR signature;  IR Signatures from External Sources – reflection of earthshine (in 8-12 m), sunshine (in 2–3 m followed by 3-5 m), & sky-shine (in 8-12 m);  Role of Atmosphere – attenuation of IR-signature by intervening atmosphere & atmospheric background radiance;  Relation between IR-Signature and Aircraft / Helicopter Susceptibility – lock-on envelope & lethal envelop for air-to-air combat in horizontal plane;  IR-Signature Suppression (& its Penalties) – optical blocking, cooling, emissivity optimization;  IR Countermeasures (IRCM) for point IR-detection – decoys / flares;  IRC2M – imaging IR-detectors.
Found this on an IIT B brochure. Could show us what areas we are focussing on in AMCA

 

[Suryavanshi]

Yeah no shit... Sherlock! That's what I am trying to discuss. We haven't have the any sort of publicly available data for AMCA. Yet very conveniently "engineers" over here, decided that it's going to be 5+ gen, do they even consider the gravity of the statement they made, if a DRDO engineer or ADA is saying that... than I don't know why we haven't been on news already, now are we?

Too bad we are buying Rafael's now ain't we.





Read that article and now I am thinking, there must be someone who did much better than them, so I went to Research Gate and found this, because 86% isn't going to get us to 5+ gen jet naa.

Citation Source: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ith_Doping_Zn_and_Mn_for_Microwaves_Absorbent)


View attachment 45278

TL: DR

View attachment 45279

View attachment 45280

They could've done there due diligence and cited this paper, would have achieved 96% on RL (Reflection Loss). Now at -14dB @ 15GHz... that would be close to a Bird or SR71, that means our IIT-M & IIT-R guys doing a hell of a job achieving 86%, that would give them what... close to 0.1 m2 @ 15GHz, that's Rafael for you.

That's not enough when we say our AMCA would be 5+ gen.

(Refrence: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm)

Now, correct me if I am wrong, a true 5th Gen jet would have an RCS (Average) of 0.0005 m2 @15Ghz or better i.e. 0.0001 m2

Here's a low down. USAF spent trillion dollars to work upon the technology that we see today as F22 or F35 and we work at pennies and dimes, simply put the finances aren't in our favor. It's good that our PSU's are doing fine job, Tejas FOC standard achieved, great, now deploy them soon near LOC with Astra-MK1 along with our Rafel and SU30MKIs in large numbers an we are good to go.


Here's another tid-bit:

Merge pakka hona hai, kyuki you have what 700 to 800 odd Km of airspace to cover with for every paki bird, 3 of our birds (1:3). IAF recently ordered 700 Russian missiles. Now why would we do that, because first, shelf life and second because WVR. :biggrin2:

We ain't there yet.

My nigga the article sourced by me is from 2006.
We have come a long way since then.

The coating tech is solidified and it will only get better with time, check the AMCA thread u can probably find more sources.
All sub component for 5th gen is almost done, all there is left is a prototype to fly.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Yeah no shit... Sherlock! That's what I am trying to discuss. We haven't have the any sort of publicly available data for AMCA. Yet very conveniently "engineers" over here, decided that it's going to be 5+ gen, do they even consider the gravity of the statement they made, if a DRDO engineer or ADA is saying that... than I don't know why we haven't been on news already, now are we?

Too bad we are buying Rafael's now ain't we.





Read that article and now I am thinking, there must be someone who did much better than them, so I went to Research Gate and found this, because 86% isn't going to get us to 5+ gen jet naa.

Citation Source: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ith_Doping_Zn_and_Mn_for_Microwaves_Absorbent)


View attachment 45278

TL: DR

View attachment 45279

View attachment 45280

They could've done there due diligence and cited this paper, would have achieved 96% on RL (Reflection Loss). Now at -14dB @ 15GHz... that would be close to a Bird or SR71, that means our IIT-M & IIT-R guys doing a hell of a job achieving 86%, that would give them what... close to 0.1 m2 @ 15GHz, that's Rafael for you.

That's not enough when we say our AMCA would be 5+ gen.

(Refrence: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm)

Now, correct me if I am wrong, a true 5th Gen jet would have an RCS (Average) of 0.0005 m2 @15Ghz or better i.e. 0.0001 m2

Here's a low down. USAF spent trillion dollars to work upon the technology that we see today as F22 or F35 and we work at pennies and dimes, simply put the finances aren't in our favor. It's good that our PSU's are doing fine job, Tejas FOC standard achieved, great, now deploy them soon near LOC with Astra-MK1 along with our Rafel and SU30MKIs in large numbers an we are good to go.


Here's another tid-bit:

Merge pakka hona hai, kyuki you have what 700 to 800 odd Km of airspace to cover with for every paki bird, 3 of our birds (1:3). IAF recently ordered 700 Russian missiles. Now why would we do that, because first, shelf life and second because WVR. :biggrin2:

We ain't there yet.

What data do you want,blueprints....that ain't possible,everyone sells brochure not the details .......no one but the testpilot at HAL claimed so,and here people justify such....We are buying Rafale since over two decades ,and it's no new...the cockpit design it is bringing will gonna be obsolete within a decade and more and more aircrafts will be featuring the new Wide area display design......
Instead you should also have visited DRDO website defence science journal,also as per Lockheed 70 stealth comes from the design and that's why you don't see US with all advance stealth material claiming that the new F16,f18,f15 will become stealth like that of China.....
The RCS depends upon numerous factors,the ones you stated are the frontal RCS(and that's too if doubt is totally false)and that's too for PR....Now comes to research paper,their are many papers in the DSJ such as on radar absorbent surface(RAS:-glass epoxy composite),Jaumann wide band EMW absorber,metamaterials....the property of metamaterials are that they absorb 99 percent energy of certain wavelengths and are applicable on narrow band,that is most probable for the X band aircraft in the vicinity....Their are various other journals,just go through the DRDO website,publication,defence science journals,Archives,issues,materials and search for the stealth material related stuff........