AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[tharun]

what is this "NG build facilities " ??

Next generation facilities...like F-35 building line

 

[Butter Chicken]

Gripen line in India will be owned by Saab and similar for F-16/SH.So we will build AMCA in foreign owned factory?

 

[tharun]

Gripen line in India will be owned by Saab and similar for F-16/SH.So we will build AMCA in foreign owned factory?

Yes that's what they are proposing..for AMCA as well as single engine jet....
That's disaster if we build AMCA in foreign owned line..

 

[HariPrasad-1]

resently defence minister in goa requesting/ inviting the french company to setup engine menufecturing unit in goa....thats a clear indication that no kaveri related deal happened with rafale...
https://www.google.co.in/amp/m.econ...ring-unit-in-goa/amp_articleshow/55016003.cms

to my view , amca engine is still a unsorted issue.....drdo had high hopes toward dtti , but seem that boeing and ge has now linked the joint venture of f414 to power the amca with f18....
surely f18 not going to happened...
so, options are limited....

Right engine for AMCA will be EJ 230 TW. It has a great dry thrust of 72 KN and wet thrust of 108KN which may be increased 5% to meet the requirement.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

IDN TAKE: Why AMCA Will Be A Game-Changer For India

India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Image Courtesy: Murali Yadav​

by Prajjwal-Techstar DA

Many of us are very much frustrated with LCA Tejas project. Of course, it’s awesome aircraft but the way Indian PSUs handled it was making it disaster. Thank god that at least now it’s inducting into Indian Air-Force. Or maybe later, even in the Indian Navy.

Several people have doubts on AMCA that it would be successful program or not. However, there are many reasons why AMCA wouldn’t suffer as much as Tejas did. As Tejas became reality on 4th of January 2001 when this date became historic in the chapters of Indian Aeronautical Industry when Tejas made its first flight. Since then, there were many problems faced by the development team for getting the thumbs-up from Indian Armed Forces. Many parts were imported because there wasn’t any local industry in India which could make these parts. For example, the engines (G.E F-104), zero-zero ejection seats (Martin Baker), actuators (Moog), Radome (Cobham), missiles (Vympel NPO), and Radar (Elta EL/M 2032) are of USA, British, USA, Russian and Israeli origin respectively.

Since India’s defence forces are rapidly gaining strength, it’s obvious that it would need plenty of defence equipments. And with new policy of Make-in-India, now several Indian Industries are getting involved in Defence sector. Like LCA’s Air-frame was totally made by HAL/NAL. But now, many private companies are getting involved. So this has created easy path for the LCA and as-well-as AMCA.

So question comes that how much AMCA is Indian? Coming to Air-Frame, it is unofficially reported that L&T will make Air-Frame components. The same company which is going to make for LCA.Then it comes to controls which will be made by ADE which is a subsidiary of DRDO. Then comes Avionics, which will be made by DRDO’s subsidiary CVRDE. Which would be indigenously designed & developed? It would feature Indian Navigation System NAVIC. The Moog actuators will be replaced by indigenously developed actuators manufactured at HAL Nagpur assisted by MTAR Hyderabad and Godrej Mumbai. The actuators are developed by Vikram Sarabhai Space Center, ISRO and the IPR will be transferred to the consortium ( HAL, MTAR, Godrej). The fly-by-wire system in Tejas is developed by Bharat Electronics Ltd.

Then it comes to Cockpit elements. Cockpit of AMCA is designed DARE which is the subsidiary of DRDO and will be manufactured by Indian company Samtel which is the same industry which manufactures Avionics for Su-30MKI. AMCA will also feature India 100% designed and developed AESA Radar made with GaN (Gallium Nitride). It’s head-up display as-well-as Head-up mounted display will be indigenously made-by CSIO which is subsidiary of Indian PSU CSIR, the same PSU which manufactures India’s super-computer. The Electronic warfare suite is indigenously developed by DARE and DLRL which are subsidiary of DRDO.

Most important part is Engine and Armaments. Although configuration of Armaments are unclear, most-probability it will carry Indian weapons. Or Foreign weapons which are made-in India. The part of the Engine is still unclear. There is currently 2 options available. K9+ and K10 Engine. K9+ engine is designed and developed in India. Which would be successor of Kaveri? Second offer of K10 Engine is that the Engine will be made by Joint-Venture with any foreign country. Most probably its US Company General Electrics who is chosen.GE promised DRDO for full access to its core technology and also offered to give ToT for Engine for local manufacturing in India. But since K-9+ will take another decade to operation after so much R&D, it’s likely to be on K10. Recent visit made by Manohar Parrikar to US included the development of K-10.

There will be total 2 Technology Demonstrators and 4 Prototypes which will have it’s first flight in January 2019.And if everything goes as-planned, it will start to induct into Indian Air-Force from 2021-22.But Naval version might take some time. Many more 3-4 years.

Now question comes that what will be NOT Made in India?

There are reports that DRDO will consider another option of Cockpit Display which would be a JV between HAL and Elbit of Israel. If it’s chosen then it wouldn't be totally made in India. Then the cockpit-speech recognition system will be made by Adacel which is the same company which makes same type of system for F-35.

As you can see, AMCA is a big game changer for India cause it will ramp-up India’s defence industries to a new technological highpoint. TEJAS was a tough-call but that call will bear sweet-fruits for India's aerospace industry.

 

[SajeevJino]

what is this "NG build facilities " ??

Our manufacturing plants are vintage era.. even they don't have CNC operated machines

 

[wuzetian]

Our manufacturing plants are vintage era.. even they don't have CNC operated machines

For bringing not just CNC but the latest 3D printing and Additive manufacturing technology we need more capital investments, already private companies like L&T, Bharat Forge employ them. To beat China and others in cost effective manufacturing we need to be ahead of the curve . The negative of automation , AI and Additive manufacturing for Indian industry will be the loss of jobs , which leaves a threat of the demographic dividend turning into demographic liability .

 

[Adioz]

Our manufacturing plants are vintage era.. even they don't have CNC operated machines

Dude even HMT Pinjore, a PSU that is a liability for GOI uses CNC and NC. However, agreed that our plants are indeed outdated.
We need very accurate machines, the tolerances we are looking at in 5th generation fighters is no joke.

AMCA should have more combat radius that j31 and j-21 the current combat radius 1000 kmshould be increased to 1400 km and ferry range to 7000 km and range to 3500km

The initial design iterations have already been done, so you are late in giving your suggestion. 1400 km combat radius? FGFA should fill that void. Remember, AMCA is a medium combat aircraft, not a heavy one.

For bringing not just CNC but the latest 3D printing and Additive manufacturing technology we need more capital investments, already private companies like L&T, Bharat Forge employ them. To beat China and others in cost effective manufacturing we need to be ahead of the curve . The negative of automation , AI and Additive manufacturing for Indian industry will be the loss of jobs , which leaves a threat of the demographic dividend turning into demographic liability .

Not every industry can work on cheap-labour principle. AMCA requires skilled labour and high-end machining. There is no alternative. Alternatives might exist in industries like textile, though even here, automation is giving manual labour a tough competition. So government policies should discourage automation in industries where product quality and productivity does not suffer adversely by relying only on cheap labour. However, government policies should simultaneously support up-skilling labour force and investing in automation to capture some high-end manufacturing industries of critical importance or growth potential.

 

[wuzetian]

Dude even HMT Pinjore, a PSU that is a liability for GOI uses CNC and NC. However, agreed that our plants are indeed outdated.
We need very accurate machines, the tolerances we are looking at in 5th generation fighters is no joke.


The initial design iterations have already been done, so you are late in giving your suggestion. 1400 km combat radius? FGFA should fill that void. Remember, AMCA is a medium combat aircraft, not a heavy one.


Not every industry can work on cheap-labour principle. AMCA requires skilled labour and high-end machining. There is no alternative. Alternatives might exist in industries like textile, though even here, automation is giving manual labour a tough competition. So government policies should discourage automation in industries where product quality and productivity does not suffer adversely by relying only on cheap labour. However, government policies should simultaneously support up-skilling labour force and investing in automation to capture some high-end manufacturing industries of critical importance or growth potential.

People are more interested now in getting job as sweeper in govt than as a skilled mechanic . So lazy men . Engineers applying for sweeper jobs while there is a shortage of skilled people to handle high end manufacturing .

 

[wuzetian]

Dude even HMT Pinjore, a PSU that is a liability for GOI uses CNC and NC. However, agreed that our plants are indeed outdated.
We need very accurate machines, the tolerances we are looking at in 5th generation fighters is no joke.


The initial design iterations have already been done, so you are late in giving your suggestion. 1400 km combat radius? FGFA should fill that void. Remember, AMCA is a medium combat aircraft, not a heavy one.


Not every industry can work on cheap-labour principle. AMCA requires skilled labour and high-end machining. There is no alternative. Alternatives might exist in industries like textile, though even here, automation is giving manual labour a tough competition. So government policies should discourage automation in industries where product quality and productivity does not suffer adversely by relying only on cheap labour. However, government policies should simultaneously support up-skilling labour force and investing in automation to capture some high-end manufacturing industries of critical importance or growth potential.

I disagree with your view that govt should discourage automation in some industries . Instead excess talented population must be promoted to migrate western European and other nations having a declining population to work there and send back to India forex revenue . Like the Indian diaspora in middle East is doing .

 

[Adioz]

People are more interested now in getting job as sweeper in govt than as a skilled mechanic . So lazy men . Engineers applying for sweeper jobs while there is a shortage of skilled people to handle high end manufacturing .

All engineers in our country are not fit for high-end manufacturing jobs. This paradox you talk of exists 'cause we are producing not enough engineers for high-tech jobs and not enough jobs for low-tech engineers.

I disagree with your view that govt should discourage automation in some industries . Instead excess talented population must be promoted to migrate western European and other nations having a declining population to work there and send back to India forex revenue . Like the Indian diaspora in middle East is doing .

What excess talented population we do have is already doing exactly that. However, weigh the benefits of our high-skill labour bringing in just foreign exchange as opposed to them staying-put in India (even if prospects outside pay more) and creating a value addition to our economy as well as creating several other low-skill jobs. Capital was a problem before FDI, now it is definitely possible.
As for government discouraging automation, I meant that to happen in situations where automation is not an absolute necessity, eg:-floor cleaning robots, we do not need to fire Janitors. However, there are areas where we need automation (ATM, Harvesters and threshers in farming, etc). I mean to echo with what you said about automation robbing jobs could mean our demographic dividend becomes a curse. All that can save us is government policy and a turn-around in globalization headwinds.

Anyhow, this should be shifted to Indian Economy thread, we are getting off-topic.

 

[airtel]

AMCA should have more combat radius that j31 and j-21 the current combat radius 1000 kmshould be increased to 1400 km and ferry range to 7000 km and range to 3500km

Most the specification available on internet about AMCA are Fake ...............


by the way You are comparing range of J-31 with combat radius of AMCA .

according to data available on Internet , range of J-31 = 1200 km & range of AMCA = 2800 km .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_AMCA


^ all these data are fake .

 

[airtel]

Sorry but is the engine of AMCA ge f414 or Hybrid between Indian and American engine

I dont Know ............but I think they will use Indo- french Engines .

I think these time Govt. is Really serious .................they are directly Buying already developed technologies from other countries (instead of spending 25 years in development without guarantee of success ) for example seeker technology from Israel (will help in development of IRST & EOTS ), 3-d thrust vectoring technology from Russia , some technologies from France , some from USA , some from Russia & India has Most of the technologies already developed for LCA ..........we will integrate all of them .

they are Buying even Production Lines .

they are Not taking Risks .

For country like India this approach is very good according to me ..........

negligible chances of failure & project will be completed on Time .

 

[dude00720]

Sorry but is the engine of AMCA ge f414 or Hybrid between Indian and American engine

What American engine? Trump wants to dismantle F-35 program . We are in the wild wild west now. Let us fix our own research.

 

[Butter Chicken]

Trump is fool to think that F-35 can be killed now,too much has been spent by USA and its allies already

 

[BON PLAN]

90kn engines are not enough for AMCA..............we need american Engines .

The Rafale was developped to cover 75 to 115 kn. Nearly 30 years ago.... so a 125kn is possible. Maybe using the Kaveri variable flow tech

 

[BON PLAN]

Trump is fool to think that F-35 can be killed now,too much has been spent by USA and its allies already

indeed, but he can reduce the total purchase number.
And don't forget he wants to keep all jobs in USA, so forget the idea of MII with US manufacturers. Or with old tech, maybe.

 

[BON PLAN]

A fighter plane is maintained after every sortie to ensure that it is in good flying condition. A good maintenance ensures that the fleet is in top condition. When people talk of Life of aircraft they certainly mean the age and condition of air frame. Engines can be replaced. Engines of an airplane are not replaced after few sorties, but for Su-30 MKI, if the engines have a problem then the engined had to be removed and sent to Russia for repairs and maintenance and that is why India had more than 4 engines per Su-30 MKI so that in case the engine develops a fault the plane is not grounded, it is replaced with another engine and it goes off.
A good engine is one which is easily maintainable. The french see the modular approach for this, the modular approach means that the faulty module can be replaced and the engine is working again, and the the engineers can take their time to repair the faulty module, Modular approach is time saving but expensive in a way. On other hand, the general engine depends on repairing the faulty parts, this might be time consuming but cheaper, and there is need for experienced mechanic to identify the fault quickly.

they talked about 10000 engines, and since we say French engines, which french engines are IAF using? 10000 engines for 36 Rafale? If India ordered say 5000 Rafales than that number might hold true not till then. The Russians planes cannot be fitted with french engines. Most of our fighter fleet is Russian. But on other hand India has a huge requirements of helicopters for military as well as civilian use and hence those are the engines in the topic

These 10000 engines includes many helo engines, some civilian liners engines and... few rafale' M88.

 

[airtel]

And don't forget he wants to keep all jobs in USA, so forget the idea of MII with US manufacturers. Or with old tech, maybe.

He also wants to counter China ...........................so India-US defence corporation is Possible .

 

[SajeevJino]

People are more interested now in getting job as sweeper in govt than as a skilled mechanic . So lazy men . Engineers applying for sweeper jobs while there is a shortage of skilled people to handle high end manufacturing .

The education system sucks, I sure half of the Engg passed out students even don't know the Ohm's law