AK-203 Scrap

[SwordOfDarkness]

Why do you keep talking about COIN ops ! Are bhai we have to fight paki with G3 and chinese with qbz 191

hard armour isnt standard issue with chinese. 7.62x39 does perfectly fine with soft armour.

Let me not talk about paki armour.

 

[Blademaster]

Yes , I have pointed that out .

Yes and you have to read between the lines to see that won't go down well with the IA bean counters because to get the right ammo, you would have to replace the entire stock of the existing ammo. That is where the real costs come in. You are talking about 2-3 billion bullets produced per year minimum to keep up with 2000 rounds per annual per soldier expenditure for training alone. For wartime use, daily use of ammo shoots way up to minimum of 2k bullets per day per soldier taking into all factors. At 1 million soldiers, that means 2 billion rounds per day. So India needs to stockpile about 20-30 billion rounds of ammo. That means 10 - 20 days reserve of ammo. So when the Sig Saur deal happened and they found out that their current stock of bullets wouldn't work well with the Sig Sauer guns and would have to use the Sig Sauer rounds which are way more expensive and would kill their weapon procurement budget, the IA generals got a severe burn case of buyer remorse.

 

[Blademaster]

AKs are infamous for bring inacurrate

As the Russian Ukraine war proved, most deaths and injuries come from artillery or tank fire, not bullets.

 

[Angel of War]

hard armour isnt standard issue with chinese. 7.62x39 does perfectly fine with soft armour.

Let me not talk about paki armour.

Range of engagement ? Better ballisitics ? Better accuracy ? 7.62*51 takes the win here. It isn't about body armour , it's about being on par or ahead of your adversary . Right now our average infantryman is outgunned by PLA and PA except for the ones with Sigs

 

[Angel of War]

As the Russian Ukraine war proved, most deaths and injuries come from artillery or tank fire, not bullets.

I wonder how is this relevant to my point regarding accuracy ?

 

[Blademaster]

I wonder how is this relevant to my point regarding accuracy ?

Accuracy may be great but not that important in the grand scheme of things for frontline infantry. Accuracy is more important for marksmans and snipers. For regular infantry, it is all about covering fire, spray fire, and suppression area fire to pin enemy forces down and taking them out with artillery, tank, bunker busting missiles/RPGs, or ATGMs.

Therefore if it is good enough, then that's all we need. Remember better is the enemy of good enough.

 

[Angel of War]

Yes and you have to read between the lines to see that won't go down well with the IA bean counters because to get the right ammo, you would have to replace the entire stock of the existing ammo. That is where the real costs come in. You are talking about 2-3 billion bullets produced per year minimum to keep up with 2000 rounds per annual per soldier expenditure for training alone. For wartime use, daily use of ammo shoots way up to minimum of 2k bullets per day per soldier taking into all factors. At 1 million soldiers, that means 2 billion rounds per day. So India needs to stockpile about 20-30 billion rounds of ammo. That means 10 - 20 days reserve of ammo. So when the Sig Saur deal happened and they found out that their current stock of bullets wouldn't work well with the Sig Sauer guns and would have to use the Sig Sauer rounds which are way more expensive and would kill their weapon procurement budget, the IA generals got a severe burn case of buyer remorse.

Very true and insightful . Short sightedness messed up the whole process . Now our troops will have to operate with a khichdi of weapons systems . Imagine a Sig guy and AK guy in the same secton

 

[Super Flanker]

Yes and you have to read between the lines to see that won't go down well with the IA bean counters because to get the right ammo, you would have to replace the entire stock of the existing ammo. That is where the real costs come in. You are talking about 2-3 billion bullets produced per year minimum to keep up with 2000 rounds per annual per soldier expenditure for training alone. For wartime use, daily use of ammo shoots way up to minimum of 2k bullets per day per soldier taking into all factors. At 1 million soldiers, that means 2 billion rounds per day. So India needs to stockpile about 20-30 billion rounds of ammo. That means 10 - 20 days reserve of ammo. So when the Sig Saur deal happened and they found out that their current stock of bullets wouldn't work well with the Sig Sauer guns and would have to use the Sig Sauer rounds which are way more expensive and would kill their weapon procurement budget, the IA generals got a severe burn case of buyer remorse.

Thank you for this very informative Post. Greatly appreciated.

 

[Angel of War]

Accuracy may be great but not that important in the grand scheme of things for frontline infantry. Accuracy is more important for marksmans and snipers. For regular infantry, it is all about covering fire, spray fire, and suppression area fire to pin enemy forces down and taking them out with artillery, tank, bunker busting missiles/RPGs, or ATGMs.

I am comparing the accuracy of 7.62*39 to that of 7.62*51 . I am not talking about what kills more troops . I am comparing two different rifles with two different calibres

 

[Blademaster]

I am comparing the accuracy of 7.62*39 to that of 7.62*51 . I am not talking about what kills more troops . I am comparing two different rifles with two different calibres

yes but when you are dealing with the logistical issues of standardizing the rifles and supplying ammo among hundreds of thousand of soldiers, accuracy rates take a backseat to being good enough to cope with the most types of battle situations to being able to consistently supply the troops with sufficient amounts of usable ammo to stay in warfighting shape.

 

[Angel of War]

yes but when you are dealing with the logistical issues of standardizing the rifles and supplying ammo among hundreds of thousand of soldiers, accuracy rates take a backseat to being good enough to cope with the most types of battle situations to being able to consistently supply the troops with sufficient amounts of usable ammo to stay in warfighting shape.

You are very much correct in this regard . This is a point I can't seem to disagree with . With our current stockpile of 7.62*51mm being hazardous for assault rifles like Sigs it might not be possible to build up a suitable stockpile in time .
But just because I agree that dosen't mean this AK deal is not flawed . It is very much flawed and whatever we are seeing today is a result of lack of standardised planning . AK is still inferior to Sig .

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Range of engagement ? Better ballisitics ? Better accuracy ? 7.62*51 takes the win here. It isn't about body armour , it's about being on par or ahead of your adversary . Right now our average infantryman is outgunned by PLA and PA except for the ones with Sigs

By this logic, M14 outguns M16. Which is the better gun?

 

[Angel of War]

By this logic, M14 outguns M16. Which is the better gun?

Here's a fact . US army still uses it as a DMR. M16 was adopted due to a shift in US army's ideology . They wanted to maim the adversary than to kill him . M16 was a modern design . Comparing M16 with M14 is unfair and biased . Comparing FAL with m16 still makes sense. Just like how you can't compare Lee enfield with M1 garand but you can compare M1 with something similar like SKS .

 

[Johny_Baba]

i would like members to also consider magazine commonality thing apart from the usual small arms khichdi,

i mean even for same calibre ammo we have different weapons feeding from different magazines...we couldn't even standardise this way huh...

INSAS has its own magazine, then M4-Tavor/X-95 its own STANAG one, Galil (those SFs use some) its own...all these in 5.56x45mm

then in 7.62 NAT, we have L4 Bren and 1A SLR and now SIG716i, again all feed from their own magazines

9x19mm...Pistol Auto 9mm 1A, Beretta Px4, Glock, Jericho...ALL feed from different mags

oh and SVD in 7.62x54mmR, sabse unique nothing compatible for that one to other firearm, from ammo to magazine, then in 7.62 NATO we have...PSG-1 and Galatz (Galil Sniper)...all feed from different magazines, again

and in belt fed MGs...MAG 58 and PK...different calibres, different belts...at least Negev NG7 would share those NATO style disintegrating link belts with MAG 58 now but again

ooh and 9x19mm SMGs again, MP-5, Uzi, MP-9, Sterling (duh), and those SIG MPX now...all feed from different magazines...at least Beretta Mx4 takes Beretta M9 mags but we don't use M9 pistol here much so what to even benefit from here...

only some commonality that is there is among AKs, as they all feeds from common style of magazine in 7.62x39mm....buuuuut then we inducted those Bren 2 from Cz that has its own STANAG derived magazine in 7.62x39mm cal...

in short, if you want to keep different firearms fine but at least try to maintain magazine commonality naa...it is doable and should be desired...apne log yeh bhi nahi karte

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Here's a fact . US army still uses it as a DMR. M16 was adopted due to a shift in US army's weapons ideology . They wanted to maim the adversary than to kill him . M16 was a modern design . Comparing M16 with M14 is unfair and biased . Comparing FAL with m16 still makes sense

Nope, its not. M14 almost entirely phased out even in its limited role as DMR.

And Maim vs kill argument is wrong. 5.56 kills too, only diff is in range. Problem with 5.56 appears when opponent is either on drugs or has light armour (homemade/pistol rated), upon whhich 5.56 bullet just zips through. 7.62x39 solves this by having yaw, hence tumbling upon impact.

 

[Angel of War]

Nope, its not. M14 almost entirely phased out even in its limited role as DMR.

It is still used as a DMR

 

[Angel of War]

H

And Maim vs kill argument is wrong. 5.56 kills too, only diff is in range. Problem with 5.56 appears when opponent is either on drugs or has light armour (homemade/pistol rated), upon whhich 5.56 bullet just zips through. 7.62x39 solves this by having yaw, hence tumbling upon impact.

agreed . But you still can't comapre m14 with M16 , that way I can compare a SKS with an AK . But will it make sense ? It obviusly won't. It's like comparing apples with oranges

 

[Angel of War]

@SwordOfDarkness M14 continues to remain in service with the US army however it was reported in 2020 that it would be replaced but no further reports came out .

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

It is still used as a DMR
View attachment 155724View attachment 155725View attachment 155726

Check recent procurements, M21 getting phased out.

H

agreed . But you still can't comapre m14 with M16 , that way I can compare a SKS with an AK . But will it make sense ? It obviusly won't. It's like comparing apples with oranges

Dont care much for the guns, My point was about the ammo. 7.62x39 is perfectly fine for our needs for infantrymen, only better alternative would be to go for 6.5/6.8, which is a super risky thing given that its entirely untested.

 

[Johny_Baba]

It is still used as a DMR
View attachment 155724View attachment 155725View attachment 155726

Saar these aren't vietnam era M14s, they have been accurised and given new stocks and some new internal parts including barrels, i was able to find some papers on these accurising programs where they extensively mentioned how they did it all, for e.g. the gas system in this one was widened up to increase gas flow in piston area, and they also chipped some millimetres of material off the gas piston thing...

sure they are pulled from older reserve weapons but they aren't just that same thing anymore...they mainly did it because they needed a quick firing reliable DMR for those regions where AR would show its limitations...

but nowadays most of these are replaced by M110 and such systems, which are again in process of getting replaced by newer ones in 6.x mm calibre etc, some got replaced by .338 lapua rifles...

probably most near thing to these sort of programs would be Irish DMR FALs, like their previous service rifles that they brought back, got it upgraded and started using it as a DMR

Don't get me wrong but M14 in all ways was a mistake, a big one, it plagued so many gun thinigs on global stage because of american influence in selecting NATO calibre and what not...even we suffered massively because of 7.62 NATO - still are...
M14 just got a new chance because of certain needs and conveniences, that's all.