AK-203 Scrap

[Flying Dagger]

By 2050 our adversaries will be laughing at us if we continue to use AKs by that time

You don't understand what I'm trying to say . Army bought Sig 716 rifles with 7.62*51mm caliber after a competitive process and it actually suits the army's requirements . Ak 203 didn't go through any such competitive process but the proposal was finalised by a Government to Government deal . If that's not appeasing putin then what is it ? No RFI , No RFP , No competitve trials , etc . The rifle was finalised by an Inter Governmental agreement . Even a blind person will say it was a politcal decision after knowing the facts . 7.62*51mm offers greater range , greater firepower compared to 7.62*39mm . As for metallurgy , you can search about the Israeli Galil Ace . It's as tough as AK . Even Sig 716 has good metallurgy

Because we have been using and buying Aks since many decades easier to maintain and have proved themselves in all terrain.

I can clearly see you don't have any idea about rifles and are new to this so just relax and breathe.

Galil Ace is AK with western furniture we can modify our Aks too it's all about the price we pay.

Arsenal AK with folding stock costed us 27000 Rupees around while Galil Ace was quoted for 1600 dollar plus in the tender which Sig won.


Regarding 7.62 NATO vs 7.62 AK round both have their own advantage.

7.62 Ak round have comparatively less recoil then 7.62 NATO round and provide enough firepower for CQB and jungle ops. The number of rounds carried will be more too that's what they need.

We have been buying and making copy of Aks for decades but lack quality stuff and production, one of the reason our attempt with INSAS to copy AK failed.

With the Amethi based production line we are seeking a standard rifle for all troops and a learning curve for OFB to provide quality weapons that includes pistols etc in future too.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Why do you keep talking about COIN ops ! Are bhai we have to fight paki with G3 and chinese with qbz 191

So ?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Why do you keep talking about COIN ops ! Are bhai we have to fight paki with G3 and chinese with qbz 191

Though I don't support AK-203 deal and I am totally biased for indigenous weapons and I do believe 7.62 mmx39mm round is semi-obsolete in today's world but their are some things you need to consider.
One thing you have to consider that most modern conflict happens at stand-off range either using artillery, MRLS, air-launched PGM, cruise missile, ballistic missile, quasi-ballistic missile and man-portable/shoulder fired ATGMs.
More than 80% of Indian casualties in Kargil were caused by Pakistani artillery.
In modern combat infantry vs infantry (i.e. infantry contact) is minimum.
Only in COIN ops infantry vs infantry combat takes place where we can't use such heavy weaponry.
7.62mm x 51mm is the most appropriate round around LAC and LOC. The round is also good for long range engagement in COIN ops. 5.56mm x 45mm is good for CQC or CQB.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Please tell me what does the IA actually want? What are their Requirements? Please post if you have information on it.

Their is no singular requirement.
Their are at-least 3-4 different requirement that I am aware of

1. Against PLAN in Tibet plateau and mountains engagement range is expected to be around 400m to 500m hence 7.62mm x 51mm round is better. This where Sig716 mainly went.
2. Against PA and Pakistani terrorist in LOC and mountains engagement range is expected to be around 400m to 500m hence 7.62mm x 51mm round is better. This where rest of Sig716 went.
3. Against PA in and around POK engagement range is expected to vary from 100m to 300m, here a combination 5.56m or its derivatives and 7.62mm x 51mm round are preferred.
4. Against PA in and around Punjab engagement range is expected to vary from 10m to 250m, here 5.56m or its derivatives are preferred. Most CQC is expected here.
5. Against PA in and around Kutch engagement range is expected to vary from 250m to 400m, here 7.62mm x51 mm are preferred.
6. Against PA in and around Rajistan engagement range is expected to vary from 100m to 300m, here a combination of 5.56m or its derivatives and 7.62mm x 51mm round are preferred.
7. For COIN ops IA prefers 7.62mm x39 mm due to economy, minimal logistic and commonality with law enforcement agencies.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Since we already paid for the factory and all the tooling, we'll have to use it somehow. Orders may get reduced but AKs are coming. We're too deep in to back out now.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Since we already paid for the factory and all the tooling, we'll have to use it somehow. Orders may get reduced but AKs are coming. We're too deep in to back out now.

That is not quite true. We are yet to pay for machinery..

 

[NotASussyBoi]

That is not quite true. We are yet to pay for machinery..

maybe hold an auction for it,plr arms and adani might want it

 

[Corvus Splendens]

If we aren't in deep investment wise as you say. That gives GoI the opportunity to cite current "instabilities" around the globe (e.g. Ukraine war) to delay and eventually scrap this stupid deal. Maybe throw them another 50k ish order off the shelf and can the whole thing. Never understood the point of AK-203 when we have Bulgarian AK copies and FAB furniture available.

That is not quite true. We are yet to pay for machinery..

 

[JBH22]

you think 72,000 rifles are enough for all the infanty battalions on the frontline ? It clearly ain't enough . We have 340 regular infantry battalions with around half of them on the frontline

Yes there were plans for follow up order of Sig which they are not planning to do. Surprisingly Sig the much famed rifle on this forum is not good enough.other alternatives are being considered.

 

[Angel of War]

Because we have been using and buying Aks since many decades easier to maintain and have proved themselves in all terrain.

I can clearly see you don't have any idea about rifles and are new to this so just relax and breathe.

Galil Ace is AK with western furniture we can modify our Aks too it's all about the price we pay.

Arsenal AK with folding stock costed us 27000 Rupees around while Galil Ace was quoted for 1600 dollar plus in the tender which Sig won.


Regarding 7.62 NATO vs 7.62 AK round both have their own advantage.

7.62 Ak round have comparatively less recoil then 7.62 NATO round and provide enough firepower for CQB and jungle ops. The number of rounds carried will be more too that's what they need.

We have been buying and making copy of Aks for decades but lack quality stuff and production, one of the reason our attempt with INSAS to copy AK failed.

With the Amethi based production line we are seeking a standard rifle for all troops and a learning curve for OFB to provide quality weapons that includes pistols etc in future too.

Buddy don't make me open my mouth , rifles may may not be by my area of expertise but I am very well aware of how fauj works . I don't find your post justifiable at all You're essentially justifying IA's failure to Adopt a standard assault rifle , that too when they were getting better equipment they've decided to bring their standards to something inferior . I'll stick to what I've said and you can keep your opiniom to yourself . I am tired of long arguments now , I've had enough already. The PLA is already replacing it's qbz 95s with qbz 191 firing new 5.8*42mm cartridges with improved ballisitcs performance and penetration Against body armour . PA is still sticking to the G2 for conventional forces and it totally makes sense , they're looking to replace it with another 7.62*51mm rifle . Once you're equipping your Conventional forces with AKs you're asking yourself to be outgunned by your enemies . Russia which invented this calibre isn't using any 7.62*39mm rifles for it's active forces . You should know that not every soldier is involved COIN ops where engagement takes place at close ranges . There are 340 infantry and 50 mechanised infantry battalions you need to equip for conventional warfare . What will you give them ? AKs ? So that they won't shoot anything accurately beyond 200m !

 

[Angel of War]

Yes there were plans for follow up order of Sig which they are not planning to do. Surprisingly Sig the much famed rifle on this forum is not good enough.other alternatives are being considered.

They are using ammo meant to be fired from our MMGs for Sigs .obviously it will damage the rifle

 

[NotASussyBoi]

Buddy don't make me open my mouth , rifles may may not be by my area of expertise but I am very well aware of how fauj works . I don't find your post justifiable at all You're essentially justifying IA's failure to Adopt a standard assault rifle , that too when they were getting better equipment they've decided to bring their standards to something inferior . I'll stick to what I've said and you can keep your opiniom to yourself . I am tired of long arguments now , I've had enough already. The PLA is already replacing it's qbz 95s with qbz 191 firing new 5.8*42mm cartridges with improved ballisitcs performance and penetration Against body armour . PA is still sticking to the G2 for conventional forces and it totally makes sense , they're looking to replace it with another 7.62*51mm rifle . Once you're equipping your Conventional forces with AKs you're asking yourself to be outgunned by your enemies . Russia which invented this calibre isn't using any 7.62*39mm rifles for it's active forces . You should know that not every soldier is involved COIN ops where engagement takes place at close ranges . There are 340 infantry and 50 mechanised infantry battalions you need to equip for conventional warfare . What will you give them ? AKs ? So that they won't shoot anything accurately beyond 200m !

in a perfect world or a near perfect india,the army is using 5.56 for coin ops and 6.5 creedmoor for paki and commie killing

 

[Angel of War]

So ?

so ! think about what we will need for a real war not for killing terrorists . You having some comprehension issues ? Once you're attacking an integrated defensive position of the enemy held by a company or two a couple hundered meters away supported by a mortar troop , what will you do ? Those mortars will make sure you don't get within assault range of the their positions

 

[Angel of War]

in a perfect world or a near perfect india,the army is using 5.56 for coin ops and 6.5 creedmoor for paki and commie killing

Hoping that dream of yours comes true , by 2060 atleast

 

[NotASussyBoi]

Hoping that dream of yours comes true , by 2060 atleast

sorry sir i am a pragmatic man i calculate we will achieve that when the lunar trials are complete

 

[Angel of War]

sorry sir i am a pragmatic man i calculate we will achieve that when the lunar trials are complete

We don't have radical and innovational thinking among our high ups and bureacurats who control the MoD . That's what makes us lag behind .

 

[NotASussyBoi]

We don't have radical and innovational thinking among our high ups and bureacurats who control the MoD . That's what makes us lag behind .

yeah that's the thing,we need a dopamine detox,clean it to the core,destroy Chandigarh lobby,but easier said than done

 

[Angel of War]

Though I don't support AK-203 deal and I am totally biased for indigenous weapons and I do believe 7.62 mmx39mm round is semi-obsolete in today's world but their are some things you need to consider.
One thing you have to consider that most modern conflict happens at stand-off range either using artillery, MRLS, air-launched PGM, cruise missile, ballistic missile, quasi-ballistic missile and man-portable/shoulder fired ATGMs.
More than 80% of Indian casualties in Kargil were caused by Pakistani artillery.
In modern combat infantry vs infantry (i.e. infantry contact) is minimum.
Only in COIN ops infantry vs infantry combat takes place where we can't use such heavy weaponry.
7.62mm x 51mm is the most appropriate round around LAC and LOC. The round is also good for long range engagement in COIN ops. 5.56mm x 45mm is good for CQC or CQB.

Their is no singular requirement.
Their are at-least 3-4 different requirement that I am aware of

1. Against PLAN in Tibet plateau and mountains engagement range is expected to be around 400m to 500m hence 7.62mm x 51mm round is better. This where Sig716 mainly went.
2. Against PA and Pakistani terrorist in LOC and mountains engagement range is expected to be around 400m to 500m hence 7.62mm x 51mm round is better. This where rest of Sig716 went.
3. Against PA in and around POK engagement range is expected to vary from 100m to 300m, here a combination 5.56m or its derivatives and 7.62mm x 51mm round are preferred.
4. Against PA in and around Punjab engagement range is expected to vary from 10m to 250m, here 5.56m or its derivatives are preferred. Most CQC is expected here.
5. Against PA in and around Kutch engagement range is expected to vary from 250m to 400m, here 7.62mm x51 mm are preferred.
6. Against PA in and around Rajistan engagement range is expected to vary from 100m to 300m, here a combination of 5.56m or its derivatives and 7.62mm x 51mm round are preferred.
7. For COIN ops IA prefers 7.62mm x39 mm due to economy, minimal logistic and commonality with law enforcement agencies.

thanks for this post , I've been justifying the need to equip our conventional forces with 7.62*51mm rifles , you've helped me prove my point
@Flying Dagger

 

[Blademaster]

You don't understand what I'm trying to say . Army bought Sig 716 rifles with 7.62*51mm caliber after a competitive process and it actually suits the army's requirements . Ak 203 didn't go through any such competitive process but the proposal was finalised by a Government to Government deal . If that's not appeasing putin then what is it ? No RFI , No RFP , No competitve trials , etc . The rifle was finalised by an Inter Governmental agreement . Even a blind person will say it was a politcal decision after knowing the facts . 7.62*51mm offers greater range , greater firepower compared to 7.62*39mm . As for metallurgy , you can search about the Israeli Galil Ace . It's as tough as AK . Even Sig 716 has good metallurgy

Problem with that Sig Sauer gun is the ammo issues. It won't do well with the ammo produced locally.

 

[Angel of War]

Problem with that Sig Sauer gun is the ammo issues. It won't do well with the ammo produced locally.

Yes , I have pointed that out .