Aircraft-carriers VS Submarines -- strategy for the next generation warfare

Yusuf

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The IN sub incident was denied by the IN as false. No Indian boat was in that area. Another Chinese propaganda news item.
 

kuku

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You might be correct, this might be a ploy to give them a false sense of superiority. I have read about Chinese Nuclear Subs being Noisy, dont know much about their Diesel Subs. Heard they got AIP now, someone shed some light?

Then, we recently heard the IN Submarine trailing the Chinese Destroyer. Why is the Chinese Navy in conflict with other navies? Isnt it just a Press Job? I feel its just Propoganda, to show to the poor ill informed people that their Country can Take on USA and India anytime, anywhere!

The Chinese subs, as far as my knowledge is concerned, is not that great a piece of tech.
Remember the time when a US stealth bomber was shot down through some accurate observations of its flight path.

Given the right conditions a foxtrot class could sink a modern ship, and a world war 2 vintage anti aircraft gun can kill a 100 million dollar plane.

However when both sides know that times are rough they will deny their opposition these conditions and utilize the advantage they have to dominate the field.

If they dont then it does not matter who they are or what they have, they are sure to suffer.
 

Pintu

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An US AF F-117 Night Hawk was shot down in Kosovo, by Neva-M, Surface to Air Missile by 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under Col. Zoltan Dani of Yugoslavia in Kosovo war in 1999. This was done by the Brigade under Col. Dani by an improved Neva-M missile and also for a brief seconds when the F-117 shown on the radar multiple missiles were fired upon, and one hit the F-117 forcing the pilot to eject. It is believed that F-117 bomber that was flying was with no radar warning indicator. Col. Dani also claimed to have shot down an F-16 by his battery.

Three facts here joined together and combined to a first rare incident of SAM battery shot down a stealth bomber:

1. Radars were operating on Unusual High Wave lengths and for that reason the bomber appeared for a brief period.

2. Several SAMs simultaneously fired upon.

3. F-117 is believed to has no radar warning indicator.

Col. saw the brief periods for a golden moment, for targeting a Stealth Bomber by a SAM battery which has very limitations against stealth bombers.

The points can be learned here what was mentioned that killing a superior war machine by the not in that class of hardware needs the super fine mix of experience, specialty, observation, tactics , mastery and most importantly critical drawback of the superior war machine and cashing in rightly on that right time. However this is very low probability game and comes in very rare occasions.

Success achieved by our brave warriors by Folland Gnats downing Pakistani Sabres in 1971 which were equipped with Air-to - Air missile and considered by the West as best Dog Fighters. This was an exceptions where constantly Gnats downed Sabres and earned nick name 'Sabre Slayer'.

Indian Submarine incident is a blatant propaganda by the Chinese.

Regards
 

nitesh

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ahmed I am only contesting the point raised that USN was in "relaxed posture". What exactly does this word mean? Does it mean navy was not interested in security of carrier!
 

Yusuf

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relaxed means radars sonars not active and besides US is not in any open hostility in that area so it did not expect to be sunk in that area.
 

ahmedsid

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ahmed I am only contesting the point raised that USN was in "relaxed posture". What exactly does this word mean? Does it mean navy was not interested in security of carrier!
Nitesh, Relaxed Posture means, they were operating in International Waters, in Peace Time. No Intel on Hostility or Possibile Hostile Elements recieved.
 

nitesh

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Nitesh, Relaxed Posture means, they were operating in International Waters, in Peace Time. No Intel on Hostility or Possibile Hostile Elements recieved.
So this means when you are in international waters in peace time any body can stalk you and record your acoustic signatures? Wherever carrier is operating there is a no fly zone. This is not convincing enough. Definitely Americans were caught off guard.
 

ahmedsid

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So this means when you are in international waters in peace time any body can stalk you and record your acoustic signatures? Wherever carrier is operating there is a no fly zone. This is not convincing enough. Definitely Americans were caught off guard.
No Fly zone, is only when the carrier is in harbour or on port calls I think, especially after 9/11 and the USS cole incident, security is tight when on port calls. But while on International waters, in peacetime they aint that careful, and this is the typical American lax attitude, which cost them dearly in Pearl Harbour.

One more thing, What if the US were picking on the chinese sonar? I mean what if they were studying it and then made the chinese think they are great etc! We all know chinese subs are being closely monitored by USA, especially their submarine pens, and US would love to hear out their subs. Isnt this a possibiilty? The US wont loose anything with the Media reporting "CHinese Subs Stalk Kitty Hawk" or "Chinese Subs the Greatest" etc. They got a chance to study the chinese subs ways and they kept their mouth shut, while the chinese went yapping around. Couldnt this be possible?
 

Shiny Capstar

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So this means when you are in international waters in peace time any body can stalk you and record your acoustic signatures? Wherever carrier is operating there is a no fly zone. This is not convincing enough. Definitely Americans were caught off guard.
So in your view should they have all systems active all the time?
Anyway as I already pointed out even if the sub fired it would have achieved nothing but it's own demise.
 

nitesh

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No Fly zone, is only when the carrier is in harbour or on port calls I think, especially after 9/11 and the USS cole incident, security is tight when on port calls. But while on International waters, in peacetime they aint that careful, and this is the typical American lax attitude, which cost them dearly in Pearl Harbour.

One more thing, What if the US were picking on the chinese sonar? I mean what if they were studying it and then made the chinese think they are great etc! We all know chinese subs are being closely monitored by USA, especially their submarine pens, and US would love to hear out their subs. Isnt this a possibiilty? The US wont loose anything with the Media reporting "CHinese Subs Stalk Kitty Hawk" or "Chinese Subs the Greatest" etc. They got a chance to study the chinese subs ways and they kept their mouth shut, while the chinese went yapping around. Couldnt this be possible?
American lax attitude is there problem why we should give them brownie point for that.

But yes I agree this might be American propaganda to make US congress cough up more money for defense.
 

nitesh

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So in your view should they have all systems active all the time?
Anyway as I already pointed out even if the sub fired it would have achieved nothing but it's own demise.
Agree with you shiny, but getting too near is dangerous. I hope we agree to this point.
 

kuku

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Well the sea is not a place where one can take anything for certain.

From this year:
Two U.S. Navy vessels - a nuclear-powered submarine and an amphibious ship - collided during the early morning hours Friday in the Strait of Hormuz between Iran and the Arabian peninsula, the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet reported.
Two U.S. Navy vessels collide in Strait of Hormuz; submarine USS Hartford rams into USS New Orleans

I guess similar stories about any nation (with the exception of PRC, they only let out the good news) can be found if we look for it. Including ships from two nations colliding with each other with out even knowing that the other one was there.

Plenty of stories from the cold war exist, and the mighty aircraft carriers have been buzzed more than a couple of times by the good old Tu-95s, however you know when the time comes the Tu-95 (right up to last year) is not going to take on a whole strike group it self, these were political moves and not military ones.
Tuesday February 12, 2008
American fighter jets have been scrambled after Russian bombers buzzed a US aircraft carrier in the western Pacific.

The alert was sparked when two Tu-95 Bear bombers flew within 500 miles of the USS Nimitz.
Four American FA-18 fighters were scrambled and tracked the strategic bombers.
One of the Russian planes remained around 50 miles away, but the other buzzed the carrier twice at an altitude of 2,000ft.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641305007
 

ahmedsid

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American lax attitude is there problem why we should give them brownie point for that.

But yes I agree this might be American propaganda to make US congress cough up more money for defense.
The americans want the best in tech and they will play themselves down to get it through congress. Nations like China fall into this and stop innovating and making new tech thinking they are already Superior to US! Their Mistake.

No, brownie points for USN, its just that, even if they saw the Chinese Sub, they neednt be worried because, they know, a Single Sub wont be sent to take out a CSG. Just not practical. And even if the Sub Fired torpedos or other weapons, there are many layers of counter measures it got to go through, and then it would be a sitting duck for american sub hunters!
 

Vinod2070

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And a Chinese sub got there unnoticed through all that? I think the US sucked that boat into a a false sense of superiority.
AFAIK, the sub didn't stalk the carrier. It just happened to be sitting at the place. It was waiting in place so to speak and that is why it never got detected.

That is what I remember of this incident. Please correct if this is not true.
 

Yusuf

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I wonder what would have happened if someone by mistake pressed the torpedo tube hatch on that Chinese sub while it was parked in the place waiting for the carrier?
How deep is the South China Sea?
 

ahmedsid

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I wonder what would have happened if someone by mistake pressed the torpedo tube hatch on that Chinese sub while it was parked in the place waiting for the carrier?
How deep is the South China Sea?
lol it doesnt work that way Yusufji, lots of procedures before a torpedo launch. The launch would have been detected, and countermeasures activated, unless the system was turned off, which i term Unlikely. The US is not as Lax as the Israeli Navy which had turned this feature off, and their Destroyer was nearly sunk by a Hezbollah AS Missile in 2006.
 

Yusuf

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lol it doesnt work that way Yusufji, lots of procedures before a torpedo launch. The launch would have been detected, and countermeasures activated, unless the system was turned off, which i term Unlikely. The US is not as Lax as the Israeli Navy which had turned this feature off, and their Destroyer was nearly sunk by a Hezbollah AS Missile in 2006.
Arre no bhai. I was talking about the Americans detecting the torp tube hatch opening and send the Chinese to the bottom. That would have been fun.
 

ahmedsid

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lol Well, the chinese got their 5 minutes of fame, and the americans New "secret" Funding to stop the chinese super submarines! lol God Speed.
 

SATISH

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Arre no bhai. I was talking about the Americans detecting the torp tube hatch opening and send the Chinese to the bottom. That would have been fun.
Around hundred and fifty people drowning in the ocean due to a single idiot's mistake is not funny in my highest opinion. Sorry.
 

Yusuf

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International cat and mouse game this is. I have no love for my enemies. Sorry.
 

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