Agni V Missile

[Kshithij]

Well, it is possible to make 200kt bomb in 250-300kg, after all P5 have proved that. But it is highly unlikely to achieve that with 1 test. It took all P5 countries more than 10 years and dozen of actual tests to figure out how to minimize a warhead.

Besides, nuclear core is only a part of RV, there are other components you also need to minimize as well, shell material, mechanics, electronic, sensors, etc, which present a long list of challenges to your industrial capabilities.



This kind of diplomatic words mean nothing. The international science community is still strongly questioning if India's first H-bomb is a success, not to mention a 250-300kg bomb.

First, the topic was MIRV for Agni5. It has 1.5ton payload and 3 RVs. So, each RV can be upto 400kg with 300kg for the bus and other connectors.

In that 400kg, 250kg can be the warhead and other parts like casing etc can be 100-150kg per RV.

So, 250kg is the weight of warhead excluding other parts if RV. You yourself had said that about 50% of 1.5ton is for 3 waeheads and rest for other things. I was just replying to that.

About dozens of test requirements, North Korea seemed to get a H-Bomb with just 6 tests. India first conducted its test in 1974 and has since then buipt several reactors, even miniature ones for submarines. Also, with modern computer aided machining and design, it is not hard to make a bomb with minimal tests. There also may have been several suppressed sub-kiloton tests which generally don't make much noise to check the veracity of the mechanism.

There is one thing can answer you question: If they are so evolved, they should've signed the CTBT since they claimed to be on part with other nuclear powers.

India doesn't sign CTBT as there may be need to fully validate the newer design of bombs. It is not just about whether a warhead works or not but also about the explosive power of warheads that need to be determined fully. For example, India has a 250kg warhead. To know whether it yields 200kT or 150kT, it must be tested first. This test is what matters the most.

 

[no smoking]

The reason for not signing the CTBT is not so that we can test warheads to perfect our tech. It's a political statement. We have already committed ourselves to no further tests under the 123 Agreement signed with the US.

Not so. Completely two different thing:
The 123 agreement was only signed between India and US, these 2 countries bear no obligation to any third party and any third party has no obligation to hold this agreement either. If one of the two fails to deliver her promise, the agreement will be terminated and it is up to other side to decide if any following sanction should be imposed. But other countries have no obligation to support this sanction. So, technically, the 123 agreement is allowing India to keep nuclear test as an option.

In the case of CTBT, however, you are banned to conduct nuclear test unconditionally, other countries' violation doesn't give you a free ticket to resume your test . Furthermore, there is clear sanction term within the treaty. If you are caught violating the treaty, the UN is obliged to organise a sanction against you and every signatory country is obliged to comply with this sanction.

 

[no smoking]

First, the topic was MIRV for Agni5. It has 1.5ton payload and 3 RVs. So, each RV can be upto 400kg with 300kg for the bus and other connectors.

Well, I am afraid there is no need to discuss this if you lack the basic knowledge about the structure of MIRV. Please figure out what is Bus first.

 

[no smoking]

How many P5 mrmbers reached Mars in first attempt? You have no idea about Desi jugaad technology of Indians.

What is the relevance between Mars and minimized nuclear warhead? You don't have anything to prove your claim, don't you?

 

[Kshithij]

Well, I am afraid there is no need to discuss this if you lack the basic knowledge about the structure of MIRV. Please figure out what is Bus first.

Bus is the booster that ejects the RVs into atmosphere. I know it well. These buses are also present in single RV missiles to do precise targeting and injection of RV back into atmosphere at the right time. To spread it into 3 warheads, some additional adjustments may be needed. So, you should know that when the 1.5ton payload is stated, the buses for single RV is already considered. Only the additional modification part is to be added.

 

[Kshithij]

Not so. Completely two different thing:
The 123 agreement was only signed between India and US, these 2 countries bear no obligation to any third party and any third party has no obligation to hold this agreement either. If one of the two fails to deliver her promise, the agreement will be terminated and it is up to other side to decide if any following sanction should be imposed. But other countries have no obligation to support this sanction. So, technically, the 123 agreement is allowing India to keep nuclear test as an option.

In the case of CTBT, however, you are banned to conduct nuclear test unconditionally, other countries' violation doesn't give you a free ticket to resume your test . Furthermore, there is clear sanction term within the treaty. If you are caught violating the treaty, the UN is obliged to organise a sanction against you and every signatory country is obliged to comply with this sanction.

Any country can unilaterally withdraw from CTBT. CTBT is also not permanent. Only as long as you claim to be part of CTBT, you will be subjected to the agreement and the sanctions on violation. It is perfectly possible to withdraw from the agreement itself at will and then do tests.

However, I agree that 123 agreement is not meaningful as it is just a bilateral one and doesn't have the same legitimacy.

 

[Chinmoy]

Sorry, I haven't read all this thread.
How many independant warheads on the Agni 5 ? what yield each?

Till date A5 has been tested with a single warhead.

A3 and A5 has been designed to have MIRV. A5 would eventually have a maximum of 3 MIRV with one being dummy in standard configuration.

As India's nuclear program is something which is not known exclusively in public, the yield capability is only a guess work. But keeping in mind the design, it could be assumed that India does posses the capability to have 2Kt/kg yield with its BF design, on safer side. But it could go as high as 3Kt.

 

[Kshithij]

Till date A5 has been tested with a single warhead.

A3 and A5 has been designed to have MIRV. A5 would eventually have a maximum of 3 MIRV with one being dummy in standard configuration.

As India's nuclear program is something which is not known exclusively in public, the yield capability is only a guess work. But keeping in mind the design, it could be assumed that India does posses the capability to have 2Kt/kg yield with its BF design, on safer side. But it could go as high as 3Kt.

Agni 3 has 2 stage. It is very difficult to have MIRV with 2 stage.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well, the point is, UK cannot fire these missiles without US permission. If US needs to shoot a missile at someone it has plenty of its own, it does not need these shared missiles. So whether UK approval is needed or not is a moot point.

Well, another point is USA can't fire these missile without UK permission.
So these missiles are under a double key system.

We never discussed about the US missiles.

 

[BON PLAN]

We have tested 40 KT weapons which are good enough deterrents. Nobody in India is losing sleep for us not having enough bang.
We have high confidence 200 KT weapons which can be quickly tested and produced should the need arise. We are not going to sign the CTBT so that our enemies live in fear.
In short, we have more than we need and can get more if we want.

Indeed. POLARIS missile used 40 or 50Kt MIRV. It's more than enough. And if needed, you can used 2 on a single target, with just a small delay and small distance between.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Well, another point is USA can't fire these missile without UK permission.
So these missiles are under a double key system.

We never discussed about the US missiles.

The point is US does not need these "double key" missile. It has its own inventory of missiles from which to lob one if needed. This means that US has strategic autonomy and UK does not.

 

[BON PLAN]

The point is US does not need these "double key" missile. It has its own inventory of missiles from which to lob one if needed. This means that US has strategic autonomy and UK does not.

YES.
It's exactly what i said at the beginning, about a double key system.

Now that GB will leave EU, maybe it's time to give all the GB deterrence keys to uncle Donald?

 

[no smoking]

Bus is the booster that ejects the RVs into atmosphere. I know it well. These buses are also present in single RV missiles to do precise targeting and injection of RV back into atmosphere at the right time. To spread it into 3 warheads, some additional adjustments may be needed. So, you should know that when the 1.5ton payload is stated, the buses for single RV is already considered. Only the additional modification part is to be added.

No, payload is payload, which is a parameter of the ROCKET - the maximum loading capability for certain range. In other words, 1.5 ton payload is the throw-weight of the missile for range of 5000km. You can only increase the payload at the cost of range. In general, the PBV or Bus occupies 1/3 to 1/2 of the payload. Today, in order to get through the missile defence system, there is more function and equipment added in, which means a much heavier Bus.

 

[BON PLAN]

No, payload is payload, which is a parameter of the ROCKET - the maximum loading capability for certain range. In other words, 1.5 ton payload is the throw-weight of the missile for range of 5000km. You can only increase the payload at the cost of range. In general, the PBV or Bus occupies 1/3 to 1/2 of the payload. Today, in order to get through the missile defence system, there is more function and equipment added in, which means a much heavier Bus.

and maybe some lure warheads...

 

[Chinmoy]

Agni 3 has 2 stage. It is very difficult to have MIRV with 2 stage.

A5 length = 17.5 mtr A3 length = 17mtr
A5 diameter = 2 mtr A3 diameter = 2 mtr

So basically A5 is an extension of A3 and with a flight altitude of 400+ km, A3 is quiet capable to carry MIRV. Moreover A3 range is much more then 3K. But it has been capped at that for its accuracy. A3 is been tauted as the most accurate missile of its class.

Anyway here is an old picture for jingos here.

 

[sayareakd]

A5 length = 17.5 mtr A3 length = 17mtr
A5 diameter = 2 mtr A3 diameter = 2 mtr

So basically A5 is an extension of A3 and with a flight altitude of 400+ km, A3 is quiet capable to carry MIRV. Moreover A3 range is much more then 3K. But it has been capped at that for its accuracy. A3 is been tauted as the most accurate missile of its class.

Anyway here is an old picture for jingos here.

View attachment 25594

Well it was original plan of Dr.Kalam. But sucessive govt, BJP or Congress didnt give go ahead to MIRV. So drdo worked on improving range and other things like BMD.

Book on Dr.kalam by drdo say it all. A3 and above was planned as MIRVs. First flight of Agni TD was MARV. MIRV is still challanged to Dr. Avanish and his team, when he was withdrawn. Cant say how much progress radar guy had made. No new things in his tenure.

 

[Chinmoy]

Well it was original plan of Dr.Kalam. But sucessive govt, BJP or Congress didnt give go ahead to MIRV. So drdo worked on improving range and other things like BMD.

Book on Dr.kalam by drdo say it all. A3 and above was planned as MIRVs. First flight of Agni TD was MARV. MIRV is still challanged to Dr. Avanish and his team, when he was withdrawn. Cant say how much progress radar guy had made. No new things in his tenure.

Yeah.... The biggest jolt has been the sanctions post Pokhran. A3 was envisioned as a 5K+ range missile, but the material tech became a hurdle in it. This had been solved in A4 which interestingly is of shorter range then A3. The material tech of A4 has been implemented in A5 which makes it a doubtful candidate with only 5.5K range.

 

[AnantS]

A5 length = 17.5 mtr A3 length = 17mtr
A5 diameter = 2 mtr A3 diameter = 2 mtr

So basically A5 is an extension of A3 and with a flight altitude of 400+ km, A3 is quiet capable to carry MIRV. Moreover A3 range is much more then 3K. But it has been capped at that for its accuracy. A3 is been tauted as the most accurate missile of its class.

Anyway here is an old picture for jingos here.

View attachment 25594

Famous Arun S Vishwakarma's picture, man that person predicted future course of IGMDP fairly accurately more than a decade ago! I dont know why, but he has altogether stopped writing it seems.

 

[NeXoft007]

Famous Arun S Vishwakarma's picture, man that person predicted future course of IGMDP fairly accurately more than a decade ago! I dont know why, but he has altogether stopped writing it seems.

He was easily the most known person in Bharat Rakshak Forum, he left due to some reasons.

 

[AnantS]

He did write few more articles, a contribution to a book on Missiles/Warheads (Lightning Bolts: First Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles) and later spent time on a forum known as India-Forums(not the bollycrap one - there is another and I dunno if the said site is alive now)