After years of TOT, why is India lagging behind?

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
Part of the problem, lies in the fact that DRDO is too widespread i mean it researches everything from energy drinks to Missiles the GOI needs to rationalize this and reassign assets both financial and human from DRDO to critical areas . The private sector is more than capable of handling non-critical tech and the same should be outsourced to them.
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
I dont think there is anything wrong with the DRDO handling many things. DRDO is a broad term and there are many organizations under the DRDO which handle different projects.

Advanced Numerical Research & Analysis Group (ANURAG), Hyderabad
Aerial Delivery Research & Development Establishment (ADRDE), Agra
Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune
Center for Artificial Intelligence & Robotics (CAIR), Bangalore
Center for Fire,Explosive and Environment Safety (CEFEES)
Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), Bangalore
Centre for Air Borne Systems (CABS), Bangalore
Combat Vehicles Research & Development Estt. (CVRDE), Chennai
Defence Agricultural Research Laboratory (DARL), Pithoragarh
Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore
Defence Bio-Engineering & Electro Medical Laboratory (DEBEL), Bangalore
Defence Electronics Application Laboratory (DEAL), Dehradun
Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL), Hyderabad
Defence Food Research Laboratory (DFRL), Mysore
Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (Deemed University), Pune
Defence Institute of High Altitude Research (DIHAR)
Defence Institute of Physiology & Allied Sciences (DIPAS), Delhi
Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR), Delhi
Defence Laboratory (DLJ), Jodhpur
Defence Materials & Stores Research & Development Establishment (DMSRDE), Kanpur
Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), Hyderabad
Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad
Defence Research & Development Establishment (DRDE), Gwalior
Defence Research Laboratory (DRL), Tejpur
Defence Scientific Information & Documentation Centre (DESIDOC), Delhi
Defence Terrain Research Laboratory (DTRL), Delhi
Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bangalore
Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore
High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), Pune
Institute of Nuclear Medicine & Allied Sciences (INMAS), Delhi
Institute of Systems Studies & Analyses (ISSA), Delhi
Institute of Technology Management (ITM), Mussorie
Instruments Research & Development Establishment (IRDE), Dehradun
Integrated Test Range (ITR), Balasore
Laser Science & Technology Centre (LASTEC), Delhi
Microwave Tube Research & Development Center (MTRDC), Bangalore
Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), Ambernath
Naval Physical & Ocenographic Laboratory (NPOL), Cochin
Naval Science & Technological Laboratory (NSTL), Vishakapatnam
Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore
Research & Development Establishment (R&DE), Pune
Research Center Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad
Scientific Analysis Group (SAG), Delhi
Snow & Avalanche Study Estt (SASE), Chandigarh
Solid State Physics Laboratory (SSPL), Delhi
Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory( TBRL),Chandigarh
Vehicle Research & Development Establishment (VRDE), Ahmednagar

What they are doing is the important question. Some organizations are successful, others are not.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
I dont think there is anything wrong with the DRDO handling many things. DRDO is a broad term and there are many organizations under the DRDO which handle different projects.

Advanced Numerical Research & Analysis Group (ANURAG), Hyderabad
Aerial Delivery Research & Development Establishment (ADRDE), Agra
Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune
Center for Artificial Intelligence & Robotics (CAIR), Bangalore
Center for Fire,Explosive and Environment Safety (CEFEES)
Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC), Bangalore
Centre for Air Borne Systems (CABS), Bangalore
Combat Vehicles Research & Development Estt. (CVRDE), Chennai
Defence Agricultural Research Laboratory (DARL), Pithoragarh
Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore
Defence Bio-Engineering & Electro Medical Laboratory (DEBEL), Bangalore
Defence Electronics Application Laboratory (DEAL), Dehradun
Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL), Hyderabad
Defence Food Research Laboratory (DFRL), Mysore
Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (Deemed University), Pune
Defence Institute of High Altitude Research (DIHAR)
Defence Institute of Physiology & Allied Sciences (DIPAS), Delhi
Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR), Delhi
Defence Laboratory (DLJ), Jodhpur
Defence Materials & Stores Research & Development Establishment (DMSRDE), Kanpur
Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), Hyderabad
Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad
Defence Research & Development Establishment (DRDE), Gwalior
Defence Research Laboratory (DRL), Tejpur
Defence Scientific Information & Documentation Centre (DESIDOC), Delhi
Defence Terrain Research Laboratory (DTRL), Delhi
Electronics & Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bangalore
Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore
High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), Pune
Institute of Nuclear Medicine & Allied Sciences (INMAS), Delhi
Institute of Systems Studies & Analyses (ISSA), Delhi
Institute of Technology Management (ITM), Mussorie
Instruments Research & Development Establishment (IRDE), Dehradun
Integrated Test Range (ITR), Balasore
Laser Science & Technology Centre (LASTEC), Delhi
Microwave Tube Research & Development Center (MTRDC), Bangalore
Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), Ambernath
Naval Physical & Ocenographic Laboratory (NPOL), Cochin
Naval Science & Technological Laboratory (NSTL), Vishakapatnam
Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore
Research & Development Establishment (R&DE), Pune
Research Center Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad
Scientific Analysis Group (SAG), Delhi
Snow & Avalanche Study Estt (SASE), Chandigarh
Solid State Physics Laboratory (SSPL), Delhi
Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory( TBRL),Chandigarh
Vehicle Research & Development Establishment (VRDE), Ahmednagar

What they are doing is the important question. Some organizations are successful, others are not.
What i was alluding to is that the human and financial capital of DRDO gets distributed out to far too many projects at the same time, this leads to a situation where in many cases the more obscure departments face a lack of control i.e everybody on top worries about how the new missile is doing not so many worry about how good the new high altitude brinjal is growing. hence in such cases complacency creeps in . Also it is more advisable to spend limited resources on items we cannot procure from the market i.e on restricted technologies. what we can get from outside easily(whithin a domestic manufacturing base) we should take it.
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
are you saying we continue to import after failing to develop products ?
Where did I said it? Don't twist the words


I can also bring in other organizations like OIL, ONGC, BHEL etc. And who said ISRO is fun organization ? That would be UB group
.
Trying to compare apple with oranges haan you clearly said ISRO work does not effect people so you clearly meant it is fun organization


so you are saying its 100% successful ?
Where did I said it? Don't twist the words again


I am not suffering from any complex as I have clearly written in my post that many PSUs and even Private sector companies are at world class levels. Its the DRDO that has continue to fail, costing the nation billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. If that is glass half-full to you, less power to you.
DRDO is not continuing to fail you are conveniently ignoring the range of successful products they bought in and helped saving scores of life if you can't see the facts then less power to you
 

pavanvenkatesh

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
175
Likes
9
Where did I said it? Don't twist the words


.
Trying to compare apple with oranges haan you clearly said ISRO work does not effect people so you clearly meant it is fun organization



Where did I said it? Don't twist the words again



DRDO is not continuing to fail you are conveniently ignoring the range of successful products they bought in and helped saving scores of life if you can't see the facts then less power to you
Can you please eloberate what kind of products did DRDO actually give to the armed forces till now which has been sucessfull
 

pavanvenkatesh

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
175
Likes
9
The point is DRDO is not a failed Organisation they have succesful products i am not argueing that at all but the time of delivery and the process of delivery is what costs us for example the LCA,& Arjun & artillery projects although they are great achivements of DRDO look at the way it was handled the LCA the IAF finalized requirements on 82 the MOD took 2 years to approve it then the DRDo submitted there plan of action which stated that they need 8 years to complete it that plan took another 2 years to be approved by MOD then the work started on 86 till 2004 or 2006 (i am not sure) due to embargo's and sanctions and finally after the kaveri engine failed the MMRCA was anounced which costs a whooping $10-11 Billion if the MOD had done this in 86 only then we could have saved millions of tax payers money the DRDo on its part commited to develop the radar and engine when it had not developed any previously resulting in delays and failures not to mention sanctions and embargo's and finally they say the IOC of LCA will be 2010 year end and the first lot of 45 are a third gen aircraft at best now a more efficient radar is being developed by Elta of isreal and engine by EADS and GTRE (i think)same thing with the artillary projects with the Singapore kinetics issue draging for 2-4 years thanks to anthony sir's draging the issue now they are again paying twice that amount for M1777 howitzars from US so the main problem with DRDO and PSU's is not technical but beurocratic and administrative problems due to which armed forces are suffering P.S: not to forget th LCH
 

pavanvenkatesh

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
175
Likes
9
this is the article on the procurement process good read
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
Sarojini Naidu famously observed that it cost India millions to keep Gandhi in poverty. It is harder to determine what this country pays to perpetuate Defence Minister AK Antony’s reputation for honesty, but the monetary penalty alone is thousands of crores per year.
Here’s how it adds up. Antony’s obsessive quest for unblemished weapons procurement has delayed the acquisition of artillery and anti-aircraft guns, fighters, submarines, night fighting gear and a host of equipment upgrades. With arms inflation at 15 per cent per annum, a five-year delay means that India pays twice what it should have. And when that equipment is obtained through government-to-government purchases and other single-vendor contracts, the cost is about 25 per cent more than it would have been in competitive bidding. Conservatively estimating that delays afflict just half of the defence ministry’s Rs 50,000 crore procurement budget, India buys Rs 25,000 crore worth of weaponry for 125 per cent more than what it should have paid.
Over and above that figure is the cost to national prestige and the devaluation of India’s military deterrent when — as in the wake of the 26/11 terror strikes in Mumbai — India’s armed forces are unprepared for immediate strikes. That happened on Antony’s watch.
To inconvenient questions about procurement delays, Antony declares that “India is a democracy” and “we have to ensure full transparency”. Point out to him that many democracies manage timely procurement in a transparent manner, and you will get a patronising, “Don’t worry, we are doing all that is necessary to safeguard the security of the country.”
After five years of insensibility to Antony’s disastrous custodianship of the Ministry of Defence (MoD), the Congress party seems to be realising that in India’s deteriorating security environment, Antony’s functioning might leave the party with having to account for a military embarrassment. Last week, Congress party spokesperson Manish Tewari wrote an opinion piece in a national daily, arguing for all the changes that Antony has assiduously blocked during his five disastrous years in office.

Tewari called for “reforms that are visionary”; treating Indian private industry on a par with the public sector; and “drastically retooling” the Department of Defence Production. Though qualified as his personal views, the article represented growing opinion within the Congress party.
s it fair, Antony’s defenders will ask, to pin the blame entirely on him? After all, George Fernandes had publicly declared that fear of the three C’s — the CAG, the CVC and the CBI — held back MoD bureaucrats from making decisions. But Antony, like no other defence minister before him, endangers national security by his otherwise laudable fetish for probity. The message that flows out of Antony’s office and seeps through the procurement department is: cancel an ongoing procurement at the first hint of irregularity. It does not matter whether the suspicion has been planted by a rival arms dealer; a paid-for Parliamentary question; or a letter from an MP which has clearly been dictated by someone who possesses every detail of the tender in question. Just put the process on indefinite hold.
One MoD official asked me: Point out one official who has been punished for delaying the procurement of even the most vitally needed equipment. But if I am seen to move a file quickly, the defence minister’s office will ask, “What is the hurry. It seems almost as if you have a stake in that deal.”
Then there is Antony’s obvious bewilderment about the technical issues of the military, a crashing ignorance that cannot be condoned in India’s top military decision-maker. Antony’s apologists cite his preoccupation with party matters; but that is hardly convincing. His predecessor, Pranab Mukherjee, who had an immeasurably larger role in the party and national affairs, handled the MoD with skill and knowledge.
At a lunch, three years ago, I asked the Australian defence minister why his air force was buying F/A-18F Super Hornet fighters when Australia was already in line for the futuristic F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which was nearing completion. His answer: Australia’s ageing F-111 fighters would be retiring in 2010; since the F-35 project was running a couple of years late, 24 new Super Hornets would be inducted to retain Australian capability. (The Super Hornets are reaching Australia next month.)
Contrast that urgency with Antony’s “we-will-consider” approach, even though India faces a greater chance of military confrontation with Pakistan or China than Australia does with New Zealand or Papua and New Guinea.
Antony’s personal image and goals are damaging national security and the image of his party. If electoral seat adjustment and managing state-level dissidence is his particular skill, let him move out of that crucial corner office in South Block and give him a place in the Congress party office.
After Neville Chamberlain had miserably failed to rein in Hitler in 1939, British MP Leo Amery echoed the words of Oliver Cromwell in calling for Chamberlain’s head at a memorable session of the British Parliament: “You have sat here too long for any good you are doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
The point is DRDO is not a failed Organisation they have succesful products i am not argueing that at all but the time of delivery and the process of delivery is what costs us for example the LCA,& Arjun & artillery projects although they are great achivements of DRDO look at the way it was handled the LCA the IAF finalized requirements on 82 the MOD took 2 years to approve it then the DRDo submitted there plan of action which stated that they need 8 years to complete it that plan took another 2 years to be approved by MOD then the work started on 86 till 2004 or 2006 (i am not sure) due to embargo's and sanctions and finally after the kaveri engine failed the MMRCA was anounced which costs a whooping $10-11 Billion if the MOD had done this in 86 only then we could have saved millions of tax payers money the DRDo on its part commited to develop the radar and engine when it had not developed any previously resulting in delays and failures not to mention sanctions and embargo's and finally they say the IOC of LCA will be 2010 year end and the first lot of 45 are a third gen aircraft at best now a more efficient radar is being developed by Elta of isreal and engine by EADS and GTRE (i think)same thing with the artillary projects with the Singapore kinetics issue draging for 2-4 years thanks to anthony sir's draging the issue now they are again paying twice that amount for M1777 howitzars from US so the main problem with DRDO and PSU's is not technical but beurocratic and administrative problems due to which armed forces are suffering P.S: not to forget th LCH
If you want to know exact details about LCA time lines i request you to read the book The Teajs Story by Air marshal Philp Rajkumar (retd.) l
 

Singh

Phat Cat
Super Mod
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
20,311
Likes
8,403
Country flag
Where did I said it? Don't twist the words
Trying to compare apple with oranges haan you clearly said ISRO work does not effect people so you clearly meant it is fun organization
Where did I said it? Don't twist the words again
I used the same line of argumentation as you.

DRDO is not continuing to fail you are conveniently ignoring the range of successful products they bought in and helped saving scores of life if you can't see the facts then less power to you
Have they saved more than those lost in counter battery fire due to their failure to develop a WLR ?
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
I used the same line of argumentation as you.
You stated comparison of organizations so onus is on you

Have they saved more than those lost in counter battery fire due to their failure to develop a WLR ?
Huh what is this now? If we could have got the independence in 1857 we could have saved more life then now we are loosing. If we could have an united India 5000 years before we could not have been seeing all these issues now. If x could have happened your line of argument is turning in to rhetoric sorry to say that
 

Singh

Phat Cat
Super Mod
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
20,311
Likes
8,403
Country flag
You stated comparison of organizations so onus is on you
Huh what is this now? If we could have got the independence in 1857 we could have saved more life then now we are loosing. If we could have an united India 5000 years before we could not have been seeing all these issues now. If x could have happened your line of argument is turning in to rhetoric sorry to say that
You are right because we didn't get or independence in 1857 nor has India been united for the last 5000 years, DRDO is a success. My bad for using rhetoric. Next time I will try to be a straight shooter. :)
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
You are right because we didn't get or independence in 1857 nor has India been united for the last 5000 years, DRDO is a success. My bad for using rhetoric. Next time I will try to be a straight shooter. :)
U are still not getting the point don't you. You are running every where from comparing between countries to comparing different organizations to using some example of some particular product not in time mean while conveniently ignoring the lot of successful products developed by DRDO. Where in my posts I am saying that DRDO is 100% successful organization every organization has success and failures is it something new in to it? If other countries products are 100% successful then they should not have lost a single life because of there products isn't it? DRDO is a research organization which has worked under severe restrictions to develop products, while as happens in R&D they have success and failures. Is it so difficult to understand?
 

Vinod2070

मध्यस्थ
Ambassador
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
2,557
Likes
115
Guys, you have made your points very eloquently. ;)

Lets come back to the topic. DRDO has not done as well as we would have liked. That everyone agrees.

What do we do now? Abandon it or make it better?
 

pavanvenkatesh

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
175
Likes
9
Thanx i have read this thread before & yes it is a good read but it only explains there plans and observations thats all it does not explain there products again i am not saying DRDO's products are not satisfying or up to the mark all i am asking is what they have done till now not what they are planning to do in the future i am just asking not being sarcastic so please don't misunderstand :)
 
Last edited:

pavanvenkatesh

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
175
Likes
9
If you want to know exact details about LCA time lines i request you to read the book The Teajs Story by Air marshal Philp Rajkumar (retd.) l
I do not want to know the exact time line, all i am saying is that instead of waiting for the development of the plane the MOD & the DRDO could have approved the purchaseing of new a/c for the IAF to replace there MIGS and jaguars and not wait for the LCA it is already 20-30 years old!! i am blaming the beurocracy and mismanagement not the plane, australian navy is purchasing 24 F/A 18 SH to replace there F-111 for there fleet even when they are in the F-35 JSF programme because they do not want to wait, replacing there aging F-111 is the first priority that is common sense!! that could have been done here!! Pakistan has recently acquired F-16 block 49 a/c and also JF-17 which may not be a good one but at least it is recent and has 23-30 years of life in it compare that with the LCA and tell me if they choose to bomb us can you intercept them with LCA's ? that is why the MMRCA is going on. so let them fully develop the LCA then deliver don't make our armed forces suffer for avoidable cercumstances
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
Thanx i have read this thread before & yes it is a good read but it only explains there plans and observations thats all it does not explain there products again i am not saying DRDO's products are not satisfying or up to the mark all i am asking is what they have done till now not what they are planning to do in the future i am just asking not being sarcastic so please don't misunderstand :)
Nope i am not getting you wrong please fell free to put your points across. That thread easily gives you glimpse of the products inducted/ in development. I don't know how you came to conclusion that it does not mention produts. You can see the DRDO site for the list of proucts
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
I do not want to know the exact time line, all i am saying is that instead of waiting for the development of the plane the MOD & the DRDO could have approved the purchaseing of new a/c for the IAF to replace there MIGS and jaguars and not wait for the LCA it is already 20-30 years old!! i am blaming the beurocracy and mismanagement not the plane, australian navy is purchasing 24 F/A 18 SH to replace there F-111 for there fleet even when they are in the F-35 JSF programme because they do not want to wait, replacing there aging F-111 is the first priority that is common sense!! that could have been done here!! Pakistan has recently acquired F-16 block 49 a/c and also JF-17 which may not be a good one but at least it is recent and has 23-30 years of life in it compare that with the LCA and tell me if they choose to bomb us can you intercept them with LCA's ? that is why the MMRCA is going on. so let them fully develop the LCA then deliver don't make our armed forces suffer for avoidable cercumstances
you mention 20/30 very causally LCA is not that old if you see the development history of planes it is not behind especially it's our very first attempt to build such sort of system. IAF is also in process of inducting/upgrading it's fleet MiG27 is upgraded, jaguar is upgraded we are inducting MKI's MiG29 is in process of up gradation. Mirage deal is getting finalized. IAF wanted use MIrage2000 as it's MRCA but for several reasons the deal got delayed and we have MRCA in our hand so saying IAf/ MoD is just sitting and watching LCA to come is not thee right words :). If we could have the Mirage 2000 deal then we might not be seeing the MiG27 and jaguar upgrades, but that's speculation now. By your definition every contender in MRCA is more then 20 years old so what is the point in purchasing them? LCA has good life time ahead. If you have further queries please take your questions to relevant threads (LCA thread and MRCA thread). Let's not divert the topic at hand :)
 

pavanvenkatesh

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
175
Likes
9
you mention 20/30 very causally LCA is not that old if you see the development history of planes it is not behind especially it's our very first attempt to build such sort of system. IAF is also in process of inducting/upgrading it's fleet MiG27 is upgraded, jaguar is upgraded we are inducting MKI's MiG29 is in process of up gradation. Mirage deal is getting finalized. IAF wanted use MIrage2000 as it's MRCA but for several reasons the deal got delayed and we have MRCA in our hand so saying IAf/ MoD is just sitting and watching LCA to come is not thee right words :). If we could have the Mirage 2000 deal then we might not be seeing the MiG27 and jaguar upgrades, but that's speculation now. By your definition every contender in MRCA is more then 20 years old so what is the point in purchasing them? LCA has good life time ahead. If you have further queries please take your questions to relevant threads (LCA thread and MRCA thread). Let's not divert the topic at hand :)
Boss please don't get upset i am repeating again I AM NOT BLAMING THE PRODUCTS OF DRDO I AM SAYING THE BEAUROCRACY AND THE WAY OF FUNCTIONING is the reason why DRDO is facing problems i just gave the example of LCA thats all i am not blaming the technology of LCA please read it again i said"instead of waiting for the development of the plane the MOD & the DRDO could have approved the purchaseing of new a/c for the IAF to replace there MIGS and jaguars and not wait for the LCA development" these migs and jaguars could have been decommissioned long time ago by buying these a/c long time back, it would have cost half of what we are paying now that is what the armed forces are upset about, all i am saying is this lack of foresight is what is hurting the upgrading process and giving DRDO negitive criticism, i say again the problem is lack of foresight not development let the armed forces upgrade when necessary as & when DRDO develops the products they will replace the imported one's that is my point then our operational preparedness will not be compromised & we can save crores on long upgrades
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top