After years of TOT, why is India lagging behind?

Singh

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First this thread ain't about China.

DRDO's failures are not due

1. Lack of resources - GoI's budget is huge
2. Lack of Human resources - India produces some of the finest scientists and engineers
3. Lack of organization skill - Indian companies are undertaking supra-complex projects
4. Lack of Managerial skills - Indians are at the helm of most Fortune 500 companies
5. Lack of Professionalism - Indian companies like TATA are respected for their professionalism
6. Lack of Quality - Made in India still carries a brand value.

ISRO,OIL, ONGC, IOC, SBI etc are all PSU's yet they are doing well and competing with the best.

So what ails DRDO ? Simply its attitude or lack of it. (And may I also add a lack of shame)

PS: The defence purchase policy has been radically changed and those allegations of favourtism, bribes etc. just don't cut it, so spare the BS and rants.
 

Singh

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The key word is CURRENTLY
West stopped giving China way back.
Israel has stopped exporting goods to China.
China exploited the fall of Soviet so did we so did Iran so did Pak so did many other countries.
Russia has largely stopped exporting to China.

Indian companies however were able to bypass even sanctions to come up with cutting edge products. If ISRO could succeed what stopped DRDO ?
 

Vinod2070

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DRDO has a terrible work culture with no accountability. Its mostly a bureaucratic organization, not a scientific one.

There are some very fine minds and very dedicated people there but that can't compensate for the other negatives.

I think it needs a dedicated and steady hand at the top that can transform the work culture and make people accountable and reward innovation and dedication. It is certainly possible and in fact necessary for India.
 

nitesh

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Where did I argue that China import this stuff or not? I merely stated China does fac e RESTRICTION, even stricter. It is rediculous to believe that the "Communist" China would get a better treatment from west than "democratic" India.
You go and read the post number 18 posted by YOU where you are boasting about CNC machines, I used CNC machines just as an example not the like word goes round around that. So get over it. The reason you face restriction because you don't respect IP rights. Don't try to give a ridiculous spin of communism and democracy if you act like a criminal you will be treated like one
 

nitesh

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West stopped giving China way back.
After realizing the criminal behavior of copying

Israel has stopped exporting goods to China.
After giving designs of LAVI (J 10) and Python III

China exploited the fall of Soviet so did we so did Iran so did Pak so did many other countries.
Russia has largely stopped exporting to China.
russia has not completely stopped export to China

Indian companies however were able to bypass even sanctions to come up with cutting edge products. If ISRO could succeed what stopped DRDO ?
Are you just saying DRDO is completely failed organization? and ISRO is 100% successful one?
 

nitesh

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DRDO has a terrible work culture with no accountability. Its mostly a bureaucratic organization, not a scientific one.

There are some very fine minds and very dedicated people there but that can't compensate for the other negatives.

I think it needs a dedicated and steady hand at the top that can transform the work culture and make people accountable and reward innovation and dedication. It is certainly possible and in fact necessary for India.
Let's not generalize the work culture DRDO is a government organization like others there4 are certain plus and minus comes with that
 

Vinod2070

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^^ I have a friend who joined DRDO and later left it for teaching at a university. This is first hand information from him.
 

nitesh

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^^ I have a friend who joined DRDO and later left it for teaching at a university. This is first hand information from him.
That's his personal opinion I am not saying DRDO is perfect organization they have there share of blame to take but we should not totally reject them as totally unaccountable persons
 

Vinod2070

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Actually I think they have done some good work but they should have achieved much more. That is only possible by making everyone more accountable.
 

Soham

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I would agree with Vinod here. The work environment at DRDO is quite un-encouraging and hardly facilitates innovation. Even one of my relatives left after being frustrated for 4 years. The heads just don't allot the funds that are needed and your file is just shuffed up in favour of those who engage in shameless flattery. If we want world class products, we'll have to provide with the right kind of environment.
 

Yusuf

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After speaking with someone who knows the functioning of the DRDO, I have learned that the problem is nepotism of a high order and unlimited budget. DRDO guys delay projects more often than not, not because of technology constraints but because they want the projects to last long and get heavy budgets for their "aiyyashi". People in DRDO work like kings and princes and need the money to live like that.

I think the new initiative of the govt to get in private enterprises into defense will help a lot. In fact in due course it will make india a top weapons producer with cutting edge technology.
 

nitesh

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Actually I think they have done some good work but they should have achieved much more. That is only possible by making everyone more accountable.
This can be said about almost any government organization but we need to look the glass half full not has half empty, there is always scope of improvement.
 

Armand2REP

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I agree with hit&run's article. The push for JVs and expecting advances from ToT and off-sets are just a dream. The end result of JVs are sending Indian money into foreign R&D centres, not expanding domestic capability. End result of ToT is buying foreign production equipment with no development data going with it. Off-sets can be shifted to non-related products. What you get are domestic jobs and modernised production facilities, but little advancement of the R&D base. GoI loves to put the label, Made in India on its weapons. But they are hardly developed in India, 25-30% I think it was. $6 billion a year is going to foreign suppliers and that will only increase with all the large orders coming up. DRDO spends billions developing weapons and when it comes time to induct them, the military doesn't want them. I was happy so see orders for Akash, but even the radar was a JV with Poland. Indian defence industry is quickly becoming the world's metling pot of foreign defence suppliers. You get good quality weapons, but they aren't Indian no matter how hard GoI says they are. GoI says India is reducing dependency, but I really don't see it. $30 billion is to be spent in the near term on procurement. The vast majority of RFPs for that money are going to foreign suppliers. Even 4x4s and rifles are going foreign. If India keeps this up, the military will be 90% foreign designed. When will the bleeding stop?
 

Singh

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After realizing the criminal behavior of copying
After giving designs of LAVI (J 10) and Python III
russia has not completely stopped export to China
How long was this ago ?
And who/what is stopping India from copying ?
There is no room for complacency or mediocrity.

Are you just saying DRDO is completely failed organization? and ISRO is 100% successful one?
Using your line of argumentation.
are you saying DRDO is 100% success and Isro completely failed organization ?
The fact is ISRO successes or fails doesn't cost us lives or national risk.

Let's not generalize the work culture DRDO is a government organization like others there4 are certain plus and minus comes with that
Lets not lionize DRDO. There are many successful government organizations that succeed and beat other companies despite being PSUs. DRDO cannot fail period. Yet it does. And this is unacceptable.

That's his personal opinion I am not saying DRDO is perfect organization they have there share of blame to take but we should not totally reject them as totally unaccountable persons
Actions in this case failures speak louder than words. And can you believe the DRDO chief said that the "Akash is better than Patriot".

This can be said about almost any government organization but we need to look the glass half full not has half empty, there is always scope of improvement.
How did you deduce the glass is half filled ?
There is scope of improvement no doubt but DRDO is at the rock bottom. Good news thought that there is no way but up from where DRDO is right now.
 

ajtr

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This question has always haunted me. India has over the years got full TOT for all weapons systems. But till date it has faced a lot of problems manufacturing the same indigenously. China has reverse engineered and developed clones whereas India is still to make an operational engine for fighters, yet to have a production tank etc.
Most of the time we have reinvented the wheel after having received the technology for such a long time.
We may have developed some good weapons of late, but we are lagging behind.
sorry for rant but there is a famous saying in hindi---"Naql ke liye bhi aql ki zaroorat hoti hai" --means--- one needs brains even to copy.Now i dont know why indian PSU's cant reverse engineer a product.Is it like :
1.are they lazy to work?
2.lack of talent.
3.indian engineers are only good at assembling ?
4.work-culture.
5.quality education/learning.(majority mug up and vomit the same in exam)
 

Singh

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^^ don't generalize the whole nation. Its a DRDO specific issue.
 

Daredevil

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Most government organizations including research institutes, universities etc work not based on kick-ass (aggressive & meritocratic) culture but kiss-ass culture (flattery). We need to rectify this culture of nepotism and biaseness in the institutes if we have to succeed at bette rates.
 

nitesh

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How long was this ago ?
And who/what is stopping India from copying ?
There is no room for complacency or mediocrity.
What are you saying here? Convert ourselves in to copy cats?


Using your line of argumentation.
are you saying DRDO is 100% success and Isro completely failed organization ?
The fact is ISRO successes or fails doesn't cost us lives or national risk.
You bought ISRO in to argument to onus in on you, so according to you ISRO is fun organization?


Lets not lionize DRDO. There are many successful government organizations that succeed and beat other companies despite being PSUs. DRDO cannot fail period. Yet it does. And this is unacceptable.
DRDO is not a failed organization period.

Actions in this case failures speak louder than words. And can you believe the DRDO chief said that the "Akash is better than Patriot".
Obviously he has more info available to him then you hence if he is saying something so there must be some substance in to it. Or you are suffering from some complex which do not let you believe that we can develop something better ;)

How did you deduce the glass is half filled ?
There is scope of improvement no doubt but DRDO is at the rock bottom. Good news thought that there is no way but up from where DRDO is right now.
Glass is half filled only they have made lot of successful products which are in use.
 

Yusuf

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wonder if the government can hand over hi tech weaponry to the private sector enterprises for them to rip it apart and reverse it to understand the technology behind it. It would help us immensely.
 

Singh

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What are you saying here? Convert ourselves in to copy cats?

are you saying we continue to import after failing to develop products ?

You bought ISRO in to argument to onus in on you, so according to you ISRO is fun organization?
I can also bring in other organizations like OIL, ONGC, BHEL etc. And who said ISRO is fun organization ? That would be UB group.

DRDO is not a failed organization period.
so you are saying its 100% successful ?

Obviously he has more info available to him then you hence if he is saying something so there must be some substance in to it. Or you are suffering from some complex which do not let you believe that we can develop something better ;)
Glass is half filled only they have made lot of successful products which are in use.
I am not suffering from any complex as I have clearly written in my post that many PSUs and even Private sector companies are at world class levels. Its the DRDO that has continue to fail, costing the nation billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. If that is glass half-full to you, less power to you.
 

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